The Second Beast

[JohnMichael]

Ray wrote a paper on "Who is the Beast?" in his LOF series. After reading that (and having everything I'd ever been taught concerning this Beast blown to smithereens), my question then became, "Who is the Second Beast?"

Note: This isn't an attempt to teach.

(WNT)
Rev 13:11  Then I saw another Wild Beast, coming up out of the earth. He had two horns like those of a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon.
Rev 13:12  And the authority of the first Wild Beast--the whole of that authority--he exercises in his presence, and he causes the earth and its inhabitants to worship the first Wild Beast, whose mortal wound had been healed.
Rev 13:13  He also works great miracles, so as even to make fire come down from Heaven to earth in the presence of human beings.
Rev 13:14  And his power of leading astray the inhabitants of the earth is due to the marvels which he has been permitted to work in the presence of the Wild Beast. And he told the inhabitants of the earth to erect a statue to the Wild Beast who had received the sword-stroke and yet had recovered.

I wondered if this second beast is another symbol for Babylon. The first Beast is man himself, and he comes out of the sea (wicked humanity/carnal mind). The second beast comes out of the earth (the called), but gives power to the first. The first beast being man himself thinking himself a god (free will). Babylon endorses this notion of "free will" thus giving "power" to the beast within. Babylon is also the "church," so it has the head of a lamb (pretending to be lead by Christ), but speaks as a dragon (false doctrines, satanic blasphemies, etc). The "church" is also called the Synagogue of Satan (the Dragon). Babylon also leads the inhabitants of the earth (the called) astray and causes them to worship themselves.

This would also be able to be applied in the past, the present, and the future.

Any thoughts?

John

[daywalker]

JM,

I'm currently thinking along the same lines as you. Not speaking with authority here, just opinion.

Daywalker

[JohnMichael]

One could even take it a step further and say that this could also symbolize man's self-righteous nature after he leaves his First Love. Man sees his own works, and for a time (without God's intervention), this lends "power" to the thought that he is able to follow God by his choice. Man is deceived into thinking his works are holy, but in reality, he's building his house on the sand.

[Kat]

Hi John,

Here are a part of the article 14 'The Beast Within,' that should help.

http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html -----------------


"And He beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The Stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the Head of the corner? Whomsoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever It shall fall, It will GRIND HIM TO POWDER."

When we fall on the Stone (Jesus), we are broken. Or as John tells us in Revelation,

"And I saw one of his heads as it were WOUNDED TO DEATH..." (Rev. 13:3).

Yes, when we fall on Christ we are broken, we are wounded (by the "sword" of God—Rev. 13:14 vs. Heb. 4:12). This is our human attempt at salvation. But then we fall, and our "deadly wound [which we received by the Word of God] was healed" (Rev. 13:3), we went back into the world, back into Babylon, thus leaving our first love. When the wound of the Sword of God's Word that had slain us, is healed, we fall from the love of God, and we again turn our love to the world from which we came.

But here's the good news concerning this stone. If we are among the chosen that overcome, then the Stone falls ON US, and our spiritual house built upon the sand comes crashing down. And when Jesus falls on us, He GRINDS US [along with all of our idols of the heart] TO POWDER!

Remember we are but "clay" in the hands of the Master Potter, and clay consists of particles of sedimentary silicates of aluminum less than two-thousandth of a millimeter in diameter—in other words, very fine powder. In Ancient Israel, the sin offering, the peace offering, the meat offering, and thank offering all had to be made with fine flour. All of the universe is composed of very fine things.

All of the instructions on what was to be offered to God in the service of the Tabernacle in the wilderness, who was to offer it, and how it was to be offered is not just quaint little stories of history:

"Now ALL THESE THINGS HAPPENED unto them for ensamples: and they are written FOR OUR ADMONITION, upon whom the ends of the world [ages] are come." (I Cor. 10:11).

Christ is representative of all and every one of these sacrifices. And

"Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He [Jesus Christ] IS, SO ARE WE in this world" (I John 4:17).

So, when we read of the fine flour, oil, salt, and frankincense in the Old Testament offerings, we must understand that WE TOO are to be like fine flour—spiritually humbled and ground fine like powder, oil—having the Spirit of God in us, salt—we are to BE the "salt of the earth," and frankincense—our very lives becoming a sweet smelling incense to our God.

Some of the things we must go through seem bad on the surface. But as in all of God's dealings, what appears at first to be something horribly bad, is in reality, only a necessary stage in the process of overcoming sin and self so as to be qualified to reign with Christ in bringing the rest of humanity into a knowledge of the Truth, redemption, salvation, and finally, glory.
------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[JohnMichael]

Kat & Others,

I remember reading that passage, and a thought occurred to me while rereading it.

What if the two "Beasts" are just the two sides of the same coin?

Babylon would definitely fit into the description of Beast #2, but isn't Babylon an outward expression of man's self-righteousness (and all the false doctrines and deceptions that come with it)?

Beast #1 is man thinking himself a god. He believes he has free will, and he can thwart the Will of God. Man is deceived into thinking he himself can do anything. He sits on the throne of his own heart, so to speak.

Beast #2 is what man sees himself able to do. He's building his house on the sand. He "chooses" to live "rightly" and has a "form of godliness." He sees himself doing all these marvelous works - stops smoking, goes to church, reads his bible, stops swearing, etc. This, in turn, reinforces his belief that he is the one doing it - God is just his mere co-pilot (in his mind). Man's self-righteousness leads him to, in reality, worship himself. He says to himself, "Look what I did! I was able to do this. I was able to do that. I am able to do anything."

Kat & Others, any thoughts on this?

John

[mharrell08]

Kat & Others,

I remember reading that passage, and a thought occurred to me while rereading it.

What if the two "Beasts" are just the two sides of the same coin?

Babylon would definitely fit into the description of Beast #2, but isn't Babylon an outward expression of man's self-righteousness (and all the false doctrines and deceptions that come with it)?

Beast #1 is man thinking himself a god. He believes he has free will, and he can thwart the Will of God. Man is deceived into thinking he himself can do anything. He sits on the throne of his own heart, so to speak.

Beast #2 is what man sees himself able to do. He's building his house on the sand. He "chooses" to live "rightly" and has a "form of godliness." He sees himself doing all these marvelous works - stops smoking, goes to church, reads his bible, stops swearing, etc. This, in turn, reinforces his belief that he is the one doing it - God is just his mere co-pilot (in his mind). Man's self-righteousness leads him to, in reality, worship himself. He says to himself, "Look what I did! I was able to do this. I was able to do that. I am able to do anything."

Kat & Others, any thoughts on this?

John

Babylon is not the beast but rather the woman who rides the beast [Rev 17:1-5]. The 2nd Beast is also referred to as the False Prophet in Rev 16, 19, & 20.

What you describe above are two descriptions of the same thing. Read more about the False Prophet in Revelation but, probably more importantly, read about the false prophets in Israel's time throughout the OT.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[JohnMichael]

Babylon is not the beast but rather the woman who rides the beast [Rev 17:1-5]. The 2nd Beast is also referred to as the False Prophet in Rev 16, 19, & 20.

What you describe above are two descriptions of the same thing. Read more about the False Prophet in Revelation but, probably more importantly, read about the false prophets in Israel's time throughout the OT.


Hope this helps,

Marques

The two are intertwined in the depiction of Revelation which leads me to believe that if the 1st beast is internal, then the 2nd would be also, and Revelation is a book of symbols describing past, present, and future. It can't, therefore, represent some boogeyman that has yet to come about. I will definitely continue to pray about this.

[Kat]

Hi John,

Rev 13:1  And I saw a beast rising out of the sea...

I'm thinking of it like this, the first beast is all mankind born into carnal selfish flesh, a beast.

Rev 13:3  One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed... (ESV)

This beast has what "seems" to be a "mortal wound." So this first wound that we get, I'm thinking this is our 'first love.' This is the called, those that go into the church and so do have a fleeting glimpse of Jesus and do believe He is real. But this is not the chosen, yet. Here again is what Ray said.

Yes, when we fall on Christ we are broken, we are wounded (by the "sword" of God—Rev. 13:14 vs. Heb. 4:12). This is our human attempt at salvation. But then we fall, and our "deadly wound [which we received by the Word of God] was healed" (Rev. 13:3), we went back into the world, back into Babylon, thus leaving our first love. When the wound of the Sword of God's Word that had slain us, is healed, we fall from the love of God, and we again turn our love to the world from which we came.

So the called get the first wound (first love) that their beast recieves, but then we fall away and the wound is healed, this is where most remain until they die physically. Only a very few will die to self in this life, that is when the Stone/Jesus Christ falls on us.

Mat 21:44  And he who falls on this Stone shall be broken (first love), but on whomever it shall fall (buried with Him), it will grind him to powder (die to self).

Rom 6:3  Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?
v. 4  Therefore we were buried with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father; even so we also should walk in newness of life.

I hope this helps with what you were asking about.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Akira329]

Hey John,
These scriptures quickly come to mind:
Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat 24:11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Mat 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

2Pe 2:1  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2  And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3  And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Rev 13:12  And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13  And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14  And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15  And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

I believe these are the scriptures Marques is referring to.
Rev 16:13  And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Rev 16:14  For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Rev 19:20  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Looks like a duck to me!
I'll have to conclude that the second beast is the false prophet.
By the way, to my knowledge, no one one this site believes in the coming boogyman!LOL

Hope this helps John
Antaiwan

[JohnMichael]

I'll have to conclude that the second beast is the false prophet.
By the way, to my knowledge, no one one this site believes in the coming boogyman!LOL

Hope this helps John
Antaiwan

LOL, oh I know. I was thinking aloud when I said that. That comment wasn't directed at anyone.

I've been wondering who/what the 2nd Beast/False Prophet represents. That was my question.

However, I don't want to bring contention or strife or any other negative thing. Only vanity and pride insist on being right. God will show me when He decides.

John

[Kat]

Hi Antaiwan,

I'll have to conclude that the second beast is the false prophet.

I thought this email concerning the false prophet might help us understand it better.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=7426.0 ----

I have some questions here.

    Do you believe that Satan (the Devil) and his angels are also going to be reconciled?
     
    COMMENT:  Yes, course. They will be "judged" just like everyone else, and in Judgment all will learn "righteousness" (Isa. 26:9, etc., etc., etc.)
     
    What about the Anti-Christ,
     
    COMMENT:  Scripturally there is no such thing as "THE antichrist."
     
     False Prophet,
     
    COMMENT:  The "false prophet," is not one person, but a system, and yes, they will be severely JUDGED and made right. (Phil. 2:9-11, Eph. 1:10, etc., etc., etc.)
     
     and all of those who take the Mark of the Beast and/or bow before him during the Great Tribulation? Do you believe that they will be reconciled?
     
    COMMENT:  Those who take the mark of the beast are virtually the entire population of humanity, so yes, of course, God will judge them and purify their evil and wicked ways.
-----------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Akira329]

The "false prophet," is not one person, but a system, and yes, they will be severely JUDGED and made right. (Phil. 2:9-11, Eph. 1:10, etc., etc., etc.)

I agree with that comment Kathy!
I didn't think anyone thought that it was any one person.

Just being funny John, no contention here

God will show me when He decides.

Just stay close to the scriptures and it will come
Antaiwan

[Kat]

Hi Antaiwan,

I guess what I was thinking is that we all have went into the church/Babylon where the first beast receives the deadly wound and it is in the church that it is healed, by serving the manmade doctrines instead of God. So then we have this second rising of the beast that must be put down, if we are to be one of the Elect. But would we all be considered false prophets? I don't know, but I was thinking that this is the preachers/teachers in the Babylonian system. At least that is what I was thinking that email indicated. Just trying to come to a better understanding through these discussions.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Akira329]

Hi Antaiwan,

I guess what I was thinking is that we all have went into the church/Babylon where the first beast receives the deadly wound and it is in the church that it is healed, by serving the manmade doctrines instead of God. So then we have this second rising of the beast that must be put down. But would we all be considered false prophets? I don't know, but I was thinking that this is the preachers/teachers in the Babylonian system. At least that is what I was thinking that email indicated. Just trying to come to a better understanding through these discussions.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Oh, I see what your saying Kathy!

I guess thats where this comment comes in:
Yes, when we fall on Christ we are broken, we are wounded (by the "sword" of God—Rev. 13:14 vs. Heb. 4:12). This is our human attempt at salvation. But then we fall, and our "deadly wound [which we received by the Word of God] was healed" (Rev. 13:3), we went back into the world, back into Babylon, thus leaving our first love. When the wound of the Sword of God's Word that had slain us, is healed, we fall from the love of God, and we again turn our love to the world from which we came.

This comment would represent false teachers/preachers/prophets?
You know, I've never considered that I may be a false prophet. Especially when I was a part of the church.
I have always thought that me(the beast) is influenced by the false prophet or false systems of beliefs. (same difference)

another script comes to mind:
Mat 12:43  When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Mat 12:44  Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
Mat 12:45  Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Do you think it relates?

Antaiwan

[mharrell08]

This comment would represent false teachers/preachers/prophets?
You know, I've never considered that I may be a false prophet. Especially when I was a part of the church.
I have always thought that me(the beast) is influenced by the false prophet or false systems of beliefs. (same difference)

But would we all be considered false prophets? I don't know, but I was thinking that this is the preachers/teachers in the Babylonian system. At least that is what I was thinking that email indicated.

And that is exactly what the scriptures state as well. We all are 'brute beasts', but not all of us are false prophets. The same way that everyone lies, but not everyone is a lying spirit.

The two are intertwined in the depiction of Revelation which leads me to believe that if the 1st beast is internal, then the 2nd would be also, and Revelation is a book of symbols describing past, present, and future. It can't, therefore, represent some boogeyman that has yet to come about. I will definitely continue to pray about this.

From reading the OT, false prophets have always spoken 'in His name':

Jer 14:14  the LORD said to me, "The prophets prophesy lies in My name. I have not sent them, commanded them, nor spoken to them; they prophesy to you a false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and the deceit of their heart."

Ezek 22:28  Her prophets plastered them with untempered mortar, seeing false visions, and divining lies for them, saying, 'Thus says the Lord GOD,' when the LORD had not spoken.

One of the false prophet's 'great sign' is to make fire come down from heaven, but this is only to deceive all but the Elect [Rev 13:14, Matt 24:24]. God's Word is said to be 'like a fire' ['Is not My Word like as a Fire?' - Jer 23:29 & Jer 5:14]. So they have the appearance of God's Ministers of Flame [Ps 104:4, Heb 1:7], but in actuality, are messengers of Satan [speak like a dragon [Rev 13:11]:

2 Cor 11:13-15  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

One other example that differentiates between false prophets & the rest of humanity:

Jer 5:31  The prophets prophesy falsely, And the priests rule by their own power; And My people love to have it so...

2 Pet 2:1  There were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you...

How could the people 'love to have it so' if they were all false prophets? Who could they deceive if they all were false prophets? How could they 'come among the people' if all people were false prophets? Etc, etc, etc...

Also John, you, me and all humanity ARE the beast...not struggling with a beast 'internally'. I'm pretty sure you're no boogeyman either and I can see you just fine. 

Is, Was, Will Be simply means the prophecies happen throughout all generations, not that everything is invisible. Sometimes Christ uses parables to describe things that anyone can see with their own 2 eyes. Also, just because something is 'intertwined' does not make it the same. Paul & Peter are 'intertwined' all through the New Testament, but they are two distinct people.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[JohnMichael]

Also John, you, me and all humanity ARE the beast...not struggling with a beast 'internally'. I'm pretty sure you're no boogeyman either and I can see you just fine.  

Is, Was, Will Be simply means the prophecies happen throughout all generations, not that everything is invisible. Sometimes Christ uses parables to describe things that anyone can see with their own 2 eyes. Also, just because something is 'intertwined' does not make it the same. Paul & Peter are 'intertwined' all through the New Testament, but they are two distinct people.


Hope this helps,

Marques

Kat said it better than me in her last post.

There was a misunderstanding if my saying "intertwined" was interpreted as me saying the two were exactly the same. Even saying two sides of the same coin doesn't equal "exact same." It just means two parts of a whole. With everything else in Revelations being ONE (7 churches = 1 church, the Judgments = Judgment, etc. etc.), why would the two beasts not make a whole?

Something interesting though. When John first saw the beast coming out of the sea, and then he saw the beast coming out of the earth, the Scriptures intertwine them. When next you see the 1st beast intertwined with something, it's when the Woman is riding it. Coincidence?

[mharrell08]

Revelation is one, as in many prophecies foretelling 1 truth: the Unveiling of Jesus Christ. Just as you've stated.

Something interesting though. When John first saw the beast coming out of the sea, and then he saw the beast coming out of the earth, the Scriptures intertwine them. When next you see the 1st beast intertwined with something, it's when the Woman is riding it. Coincidence?

Yea, when you say intertwined, that may have confused me as well. Sorry if I added to it. 

It seems when you say intertwined, you mean mentioned in the same prophecy...is that correct?

And to follow up with the scriptures you mentioned, it would make sense that Mystery Babylon would be riding the Beast seeing that she 'sits on many waters' and the 'inhabitants of the earth are made drunk on her fornication' [Rev 17:1-2]. These 'waters' and 'earth' are talking about different types of people in the world. And ALL people, who have lived, are living, and will live, are the Beast.

My point was that not ALL people are false prophets, as you stated before. Christ said that there would be 'many' false prophets, but many is not all. If that is not what you meant, again, sorry for any confusion. 


Marques

[JohnMichael]

Revelation is one, as in many prophecies foretelling 1 truth: the Unveiling of Jesus Christ. Just as you've stated.

Something interesting though. When John first saw the beast coming out of the sea, and then he saw the beast coming out of the earth, the Scriptures intertwine them. When next you see the 1st beast intertwined with something, it's when the Woman is riding it. Coincidence?

Yea, when you say intertwined, that may have confused me as well. Sorry if I added to it.  

It seems when you say intertwined, you mean mentioned in the same prophecy...is that correct?

And to follow up with the scriptures you mentioned, it would make sense that Mystery Babylon would be riding the Beast seeing that she 'sits on many waters' and the 'inhabitants of the earth are made drunk on her fornication' [Rev 17:1-2]. These 'waters' and 'earth' are talking about different types of people in the world. And ALL people, who have lived, are living, and will live, are the Beast.

My point was that not ALL people are false prophets, as you stated before. Christ said that there would be 'many' false prophets, but many is not all. If that is not what you meant, again, sorry for any confusion.  


Marques

When I said intertwined, I meant connected in the same section of the Scripture (or mentioned in the same prophecy, as you stated). For example, the False Prophet gives power to the Beast, causes man to worship the Beast, etc. They're connected.

(KJV)
Rev 13:11  And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12  And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13  And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14  And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15  And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

In Ray's email, he said the False Prophet is a system. What "system" would have these qualities:

1) Have horns like a lamb (a lamb is always a symbol for Christ, the Lamb of God)
2) Speak as a dragon (false doctrines, blasphemies, etc.)
3) Exercise the power of the first Beast
4) Causes man to worship the Beast (himself)
5) Doing great wonders (miracles, healings, casting out demons, etc)
6) Makes fire come down from Heaven
7) Deceive them that dwell on the earth (which represents the called but not chosen)

Etc.

Would that system not be Babylon? When I say Babylon, I mean its preachers/leaders/prophets/doctrines/etc. The Woman is also "connected" with the first beast in Rev 17. With Revelation being one, and the False Prophet being connected with the first beast, I don't think that's a coincidence.

Since most prophesies have multiple applications, could not the False Prophet also symbolize something internal? Babylon's leaders are the outward expression, but could there be an internal application?

When I say internal, I'm meaning of the carnal mind. For those that have had their eyes opened by God, this becomes an internal struggle ("for we wrestle not against flesh and blood" (outward opponents)/ "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak").

Kat made a very interesting point, that this second beast could also symbolize when we see ourselves for what we truly are the second time. The first being when the beast is wounded by the Sword of God, and we see that first glimpse of Jesus, but we fall into manmade doctrines and leave our first love. The second being when God calls us to "Come OUT of her, My people." We then see Babylon's teachings for what they really are as well as our role in them.

I'm not trying to teach or anything. Just trying to maybe better explain the thought process I was having. I don't want to accidentally break the forum rule about "teaching" a "revelation." If I am even getting close to that line, please warn me. I don't want to be cut off from fellowship with you all. You guys/gals are my family.

Also, no need to apologize. I wasn't being as clear as I could have been.

Blessings more abundantly to you all,
John

[mharrell08]

When I said intertwined, I meant connected in the same section of the Scripture (or mentioned in the same prophecy, as you stated). For example, the False Prophet gives power to the Beast, causes man to worship the Beast, etc. They're connected.

(KJV)
Rev 13:11  And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12  And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13  And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14  And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15  And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

In Ray's email, he said the False Prophet is a system. What "system" would have these qualities:

1) Have horns like a lamb (a lamb is always a symbol for Christ, the Lamb of God)
2) Speak as a dragon (false doctrines, blasphemies, etc.)
3) Exercise the power of the first Beast
4) Causes man to worship the Beast (himself)
5) Doing great wonders (miracles, healings, casting out demons, etc)
6) Makes fire come down from Heaven
7) Deceive them that dwell on the earth (which represents the called but not chosen)

Etc.

Would that system not be Babylon? When I say Babylon, I mean its preachers/leaders/prophets/doctrines/etc. The Woman is also "connected" with the first beast in Rev 17. With Revelation being one, and the False Prophet being connected with the first beast, I don't think that's a coincidence.

This is spot on

Since most prophesies have multiple applications, could not the False Prophet also symbolize something internal? Babylon's leaders are the outward expression, but could there be an internal application?

When I say internal, I'm meaning of the carnal mind. For those that have had their eyes opened by God, this becomes an internal struggle ("for we wrestle not against flesh and blood" (outward opponents)/ "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak").

It's only an internal struggle when one is trying to 'overcome to world', and that happens in only a few. Babylon and it's leaders are not trying to overcome that in this age. If anything, they are knee-deep in the things of the world.

Kat made a very interesting point, that this second beast could also symbolize when we see ourselves for what we truly are the second time. The first being when the beast is wounded by the Sword of God, and we see that first glimpse of Jesus, but we fall into manmade doctrines and leave our first love. The second being when God calls us to "Come OUT of her, My people." We then see Babylon's teachings for what they really are as well as our role in them.

I think you may want to revisit Kat's comments again:

"But would we all be considered false prophets? I don't know, but I was thinking that this is the preachers/teachers in the Babylonian system. At least that is what I was thinking that email indicated."

And this was at the heart of what I was trying to get across:

My point was that not ALL people are false prophets, as you stated before. Christ said that there would be 'many' false prophets, but many is not all.

This is why I stated to look within the scriptures, especially the OT, to see the shadow/type. Not all Israel were false prophets, but like Peter noted, they will come in 'among you'. Just like most people are not commissioned to be teachers of the Truth, most people in Babylon are not appointed to be false ministers. Sometimes they are simply sheep:

Jer 50:6  My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray... (If everyone were a false prophet [shepherd in this scripture] who would be the sheep?)

Also, see this section from Ray latest paper on 23 Minutes in Hell (http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html) under the section 'Contradiction #50, Satan and his Angels'. Ray goes over false prophets old and new, and these are always the leaders in Babylon, not their sheep.

This was a good discussion, let me know what you think about the section above when you have a chance to read.


Thanks,

Marques

[JohnMichael]

I can definitely see the truth in that - not all are false prophets. I was just wondering if there was "closer to home" (so to speak) application of that prophecy as well.

However, I'm feeling a conviction of sorts that I'm getting dangerously close to crossing this line:

Craig - How this Forum is Moderated thread
"Still the hardest to ban is a member who has been in good standing for some time and then has a "revelation" and brings their own "teaching" to the rest of us.

If you ever catch yourself falling into the last group, please step back and remember the rules of the forum."

I don't want to cross that line, so I will read these scriptures, and the post you mentioned, and do some praying and reflecting. If something is true, it will stand. If it is false, it will fall.

If I have crossed that line, please forgive me. That was never my intention. As a good friend pointed out to me during a phone conversation, "Maybe that's good advice to just "sit back and let it go." Spend some time in further prayer and reflection on it."

Lord willing, that's what I feel I should do - Sit back and pray for understanding.

John