Ray's Timely Email

[Samson]

Hi Forum,

A Timely response By Ray regarding an Email inquiry regarding the Death of the Wicked. Not to cause any Strife, Contention or Political considerations, but Brother Ray endorses the Scriptures, not letting our emotions dictate the viewpoint. Read Below !

   
SHOULD WE REJOICE IN THE DEATH OF OSAMA BIN LADEN??
« on: Today at 06:21:27 AM »
   
HELLO RAY,

ARE WE AS BELIEVERS SUPPOSE TO REJOICE IN THE DEATH OF OSAMA BIN LADEN EVEN THOUGH CHRIST TAUGHT THAT WE MUST LOVE OUR ENEMIES AND THAT VENGENCE BELONGS TO GOD??
I AWAIT YOUR REPLY.
GODSPEED,
EDDIE


Dear Eddie:  You should "rejoice" in the death of the wicked only if you
don't desire to be like God:

Eze 33:11 "Say unto them, As I live, says the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure
in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live...."

God be with you,

Ray



Remember, most of Mankind that have ever lived and are now alive are in a DESTROYED, LOST OR PERISHED(Apollumi-Greek) Condition and even those of God's Chosen Elect are LOST at some time in their Lifetime. The Apostle Paul was the Worst, Chief or Foremost of Sinners, yet God Chose Him, being the Potter that molded the Clay.

Rom 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

The Majority of Humans that have ever lived are Vessels made for the purpose of Dishonor & wrath fit for Destruction(Apoleia-Apollumi) endured with much Longsuffering. God is the Potter & We are His Clay, but those Vessels of Dishonor & Wrath can look forward to the fulfillment of the below Scripture.

1Co 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Mature & Responsible Comments & Reflections are Welcome.

                            Kind Regards, Samson./color]

[Akira329]

Very timely! 
I love that verse!

Antaiwan

[Extol]

One of my favorite Ray quotes:

I just thank God there are certain sins that I just never was tempted to have or partake of.  I'm so thankful for that.  But if you think that I'm so stupid, that I can't see that under the same circumstances, of whoever you want to take, say Manson, that I can't see and know and understand in my very heart and being, that if I was born in his family under those conditions and circumstances, I would have been Charles Manson.  This is the thing that people will not come to grips with.

--Free Will Is An Oxymoron, Jan. 2007. http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5154.0.html

[JohnMichael]

Isa 45:9 (NLT) What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator. Does a clay pot argue with its maker? Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying, 'Stop, you're doing it wrong!' Does the pot exclaim, 'How clumsy can you be?'

How many of us have been guilty of having the attitude portrayed in Isaiah? I have.

Ray said one time that anyone of us, if placed under the exact same circumstances, would have ended up just like Adolph Hitler/Charles Manson/Jeffrey Dohmer/ etc etc etc. We're deceived if we think we would have been different.

Very good post, Samson. Definitely have something to think about with the "Judging" and "Judge through." That is very true on how there are those that are created Vessels of Dishonor, and they didn't make that choice. They can't "free will" themselves into a Vessel of Honor.

John

[dave]

"Dear Eddie:  You should "rejoice" in the death of the wicked only if you
don't desire to be like God:"

What a great answer. Yet tough to walk in. Praise His Name.

[One Love]

Please put this to rest, it's boring!

[Duane]

Mharrell asked that this topic be closed and did so.

Ray says that when you are dead there are "no more thoughts, planning etc."  AMEN

[dave]

I, personally, do not find the subject boring but if its locked its locked

[Samson]

I, personally, do not find the subject boring but if its locked its locked

Micah,

I did think about that possibility prior to starting this Thread realizing that The Off Topic Version of this was locked. However, thought it was timely that Ray verified what, at least some of us already recognized & already believed about this. If the most reprehensible Character in History by the Name of Satan the Devil is going to be purged of His Wickedness,considering the damage He caused for many Centuries & is eventually going to be Our Brother, it should be somewhat easier to come to terms with any list of notoriously wicked Humans being corrected, Notwithstanding, the suffering these individuals desired to cause, even on a personal level for some of us. Rest assured, none of them are going to be saved, anyway, but I'm convinced that if someone from another Country were to come into the United States & attempt to dictate how those citizens should live & how that Country should conduct their affairs, I assure you that the U.S. or any particular Country would get incensed with the attitude of " Mind Your Own Business," this is Our Nation, not yours. I for one have gotten away from the concept that the Nation where I live is better in it's Moral Fiber than another Nation. All the Nations promote to their Citizens that they are Superior than the Nations where they don't reside. It's all an experience of Evil, the degree or the type of Evil is the only difference and that's always open to Carnal Debates, especially considering that none of us have all the facts about any particular Nation.

Below are some Emails of Ray's for Our consideration.

Hallo, Mr.Ray SMITH:

I email you before about trying to get a law to stop the church requirement of the sin of tithing by petitioning for it to the State Rep.   My next move for the no-tithing law is already in the hands of this state's representative again. I had written to the Rep. that tithe money is a steal and therefore the churches are laundering stolen income in the regular income of the church. You see it is not unconstitutional to regulate businesses away from laundering income from other sources. I hope that you as a man of God who cares for the real church of christ as shown by your tithe-paper will be intersted in trying to demostrate to the State Rep in your community that the church is not a business venture but a non-for-profit organization with offerings and sales income.

Thank you for being concern.

Best Regards,
Cesar     



Dear Cesar:
I am an "Ambassador for Christ" (I Cor 5:20). Ambassadors cannot legally take part in the politics of foreign nations.  Jesus never, ever got involved in the operations of the Roman Government over the Jews. We are never taught to "march on Washington," etc. But we are told to COME OUT OF THE WORLD and be separate. "Let the DEAD bury the dead."
God be with you,
Ray

Ray,

I really appreciate your website and your postings have literally helped me from becoming insane and totally frozen with fear over the doctrine of "eternal roasting."  I was in spiritual prison for over 15 years of my life and it's a slow process coming out of the mind/fear control I was under. I used to think I was crazy and that no one else had these thoughts, but I PRAISE GOD that I wasn't and I feel like The Lord let me finally see your site along with Tentmaker.  On the same token,  I am literally astounded to the fact that as much as America supposedly hates religious extremists or extremists of ANY KIND, they have voted for the devil to become President of the United States.  I really think God has given America just what it wants so the sin can literally "pile up to heaven" so that He is finally literally forced (in justice) to pour out his wrath on mankind.  Can you expand on this as to what you think is going to happen now that it's a possibility the Antichrist himself has been elected to office?  I am so saddened by what America will become (more murders by partial-birth abortion/born alive act done away with, etc), yet I sometimes get excited that I really feel Christ IS coming back soon and it will be such a relief to be done with this place!  AMEN.... I'd love to hear you expound on Barack Obama and the OBAMANATION of Desoloation to come, LOL!!!

Kind regards,

Jennifer


Dear Jennifer:  I am glad that our site has helped your understanding of the doctrine of hell and such.

I don't believe that President Elect Barack Obama is either the "devil" or "the antichrist himself," as you suggest.  Certainly there are millions of "antichrists," and millions who approve of the sin of abortion. Barack Obama did not originate the 1973 Row v Wade Supreme Court decision to legalize abortion, and it will probably still be here after his term(s).  Nor do I believe that Barack Obama is the incarnation of all that is evil as many bloggers strongly contend. If you remember there were an equal number of "Bush is the BEAST" sites a few year back.

As I am an "Ambassador for Christ" (II Cor. 5:20), and as Ambassadors are not permitted to vote in a host nation, I do not vote and do not get involved in the politics of men.  However, I do pray for those in power (as I will pray for President Obama), as we are instructed to do (I Tim. 2:1-3).

God be with you,
Ray

Here are a few emails from Ray on Politics:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1808.0.html

Hello Ray,

I really enjoy your articles, especially those on the subject of Hell. I have two questions:

1. Should "True Christians be involved in Politics and vote ?

2. When "Searching the deepthings of God", is using one's analytical skills and logic a stumbling block, or a god-given help ?

     Thanks for your time.

  Willie


Dear Willie:
No, a true follower of Jesus cannot be involved in politics. Jesus certainly did not take part in any such worldly activities.

As the Scriptures can hold up to analysis and logic, there is nothing wrong in using analysis and logic in studying and/or teaching the Scriptures.
God be with you,
Ray

Below are Excerpt's regarding America from Ray's Twin Towers Paper, Subheading: WHY JUDGEMENT COMING UPON AMERICA.

WHY JUDGMENT IS COMING ON AMERICA

    "Wherefore thus says the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay [Heb: 'rely'] thereon: Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as..." (Isa. 30:12-13a).

Despise, oppression, perverseness, iniquity..." Just words to most people who read this, but these words portend sinister consequences for all those guilty of them. Here are some definitions from Strong's Hebrew Dictionary:

    despise: "despise, abhor, spurn, cast away, distain, loathe, refuse, reject..."

God says that whoever it is that is represented as Judah/Israel in the prophets regarding end-time prophecy, they "DESPISE this word." Try and convince any professing Christian that he "despises" God's word. You better be ready to run.

    oppression: "injury, fraud, distress, unjust gain, extortion, oppression, deceitfully gotten."

    perverseness: "turn aside, depart, perverse, froward."

And, of course, every one of these definitions also have definitions, and so after a couple of generations of definitions, we have a mountain of evil, sick, greedy, perverse carnality. And that is why Isaiah starts off his prophetic book with these words:

    "Ah sinful nation [OUR nation], a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the Lord, they provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone out of the way backward.

    Why should you be stricken any more? You will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart is faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO SOUNDNESS IN IT..." (Isa. 1:4-6a).

AMERICA—A CHRIST-LIKE NATION OR A "CHRISTIAN" NATION?

I could write a lengthy article on all the sins and abuses, crime and corruption in the United States, but that is not the emphasis of this paper, although it is a very important part of it. Let me make just one observation for you:

The United States is a "Christian" nation, but is not very "Christ-like." Of all Americans, 82% claim to be Christian; only 4 percent are atheists. Now then, the United States has 2,000,000 of her citizens in jail (that's one out of every 136 persons). That's a higher per capita rate than Iraq!—seven times that of Germany. The state of Maryland has more of her citizens in prison (not per capita, but more numbers of prisoners) than the entire country of Canada. In fact, the United States of America has a larger per capita prison population than ANY OTHER NATION ON EARTH, AND MOST ALL AMERICAN PRISONERS ARE CHRISTIANS. A total of 7,000,000 Americans are either in prison, on probation, or on parole.

Okay, just one more statistic: Seventy-two percent of Americans believe that Politicians are CORRUPT! Do we think that statistic is baseless? According to CBS News 58% of Americans think that corruption in government is "WIDESPREAD." Well, did Isaiah prophesy: "...the whole HEAD is sick."

These Truths of Scripture are too high for any carnal mind to comprehend. How can "God" bring such evil to the cities? How could "God" destroy the World Trade Center? WHY would "God" destroy the World Trade Center? What saith the great seers of America? What advice do the prophets and seers of this great nation offer, when "a trumpet is blown in the city"—When God gives America a final "WAKE-UP call?" Let us see:

    "That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will NOT hear the law of the Lord:

    Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets [inspired person, seer, spokesman, interpreter of divine revelation] Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:

    Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to CEASE FROM BEFORE US" (Isa. 30:10-11).

What holy man of America would ever prophesy such a things? Prophesy LIES, SMOOTH things, DECEITS? Would America groom such a false prophet and have him address the entire Federal Government and all of her citizens and televise it to the entirety of the world, to have him tell them "All is well with American?" "God bless America?" "We are stronger than ever?" "God is not judging America?" "God did not bring this evil upon us?" "God is not the author of evil?" "Evil in the city is NOT OF THE LORD?"

Most Christians would no more know when a seer or prophet was speaking "lies, deceits and SMOOTH things" to them than they would recognize Satan if he were sitting across the table from them. Well let me give a 21st century example of a seer prophesying deceit, and smooth things.

[DougE6]

John from Kentucky I have to agree with you my response was the same. Rejoice? No.  Was I happy an evil was removed from the world? Yes, of course. Those who live by the sword die by the sword. I would of much preferred to see him come to Christ, but his time for that has not yet come.  Anyway, the ones who have the most skin in this game are all his victims.  They are the ones who eventually will have to forgive him, and embrace him as a brother, in the next life.  How fiery will that task, be to them! And Bin Laden, he will learn deep repentance and shame for his actions, and will need to be reconciled with all his victims, as part of his reconciliation to God.  I suppose all this will takes some time, probably an age. I wonder which of the elect will help out in this, in judging, in revealing the word of God; the fiery sword to cut to the quick.

And yes, God had decided it was time for Bin Ladens storing up of wrath, to end. Bin Laden has apparently stored up enough wrath, the amount set by God, to be revealed against him in the age to come.  For now, he rests.

I am glad that someday the full power of God, his forgiveness and love, will mend all wrongs.  God will show just how great He is, as he reconciles every last one to himself.  Let us rejoice in that we are not a vessels of wrath, of destruction, for the age to come.

[JohnMichael]

I am in no position to cast judgment. I just have a desire to give a helpful warning.

Rejoice: to be glad, to be happy. It doesn't mean one has to dance in the street.

Pro 24:17 In the falling of thine enemy rejoice not, And in his stumbling let not thy heart be joyful,

Job 31:29  If I rejoice at the ruin of my hater, And stirred up myself when evil found him, ...
Job 31:40  Instead of wheat let a thorn go forth, And instead of barley a useless weed! The words of Job are finished.

Oba 1:12  And--thou dost not look on the day of thy brother, On the day of his alienation, Nor dost thou rejoice over sons of Judah, In the day of their destruction, Nor make great thy mouth in a day of distress.

1Co 13:6  [Love] rejoiceth not over the unrighteousness, and rejoiceth with the truth;
1Co 13:7  all things it beareth, all it believeth, all it hopeth, all it endureth.

Would being happy in the fall of one's enemy be an extension of hatred?

Our nation has done some wicked things in its history. We are to obey it, and pray for its leaders, according to Romans 13, but how can we believe every word they tell us when most of it is a lie? 

He also claimed he did it, but there have been times when a person or group takes claim for something he/they did, in fact, not do. He may or may not have done what he was accused of. Were we really given the facts? If he didn't, how would a person who was happy in his death feel? He would be innocent, and he would have been judged falsely by his detractors.

He was raised to believe the United States is the "Great Satan." He was justified in his hatred for the West. He believed in Allah, and we are the infidels. Every nation does this to each other. History has been repeating itself for a long time. The only thing that hasn't changed is sin and mankind's fascination with finding ways to kill each other.

However, the good news is all will be made right when His judgments are in the earth. In that, we can truly rejoice.

[Samson]

I am in no position to cast judgment. I just have a desire to give a helpful warning.

Rejoice: to be glad, to be happy. It doesn't mean one has to dance in the street.

Pro 24:17 In the falling of thine enemy rejoice not, And in his stumbling let not thy heart be joyful,

Job 31:29  If I rejoice at the ruin of my hater, And stirred up myself when evil found him, ...
Job 31:40  Instead of wheat let a thorn go forth, And instead of barley a useless weed! The words of Job are finished.

Oba 1:12  And--thou dost not look on the day of thy brother, On the day of his alienation, Nor dost thou rejoice over sons of Judah, In the day of their destruction, Nor make great thy mouth in a day of distress.

1Co 13:6  [Love] rejoiceth not over the unrighteousness, and rejoiceth with the truth;
1Co 13:7  all things it beareth, all it believeth, all it hopeth, all it endureth.

Would being happy in the fall of one's enemy be an extension of hatred?

Our nation has done some wicked things in its history. We are to obey it, and pray for its leaders, according to Romans 13, but how can we believe every word they tell us when most of it is a lie? 

He also claimed he did it, but there have been times when a person or group takes claim for something he/they did, in fact, not do. He may or may not have done what he was accused of. Were we really given the facts? If he didn't, how would a person who was happy in his death feel? He would be innocent, and he would have been judged falsely by his detractors.

He was raised to believe the United States is the "Great Satan." He was justified in his hatred for the West. He believed in Allah, and we are the infidels. Every nation does this to each other. History has been repeating itself for a long time. The only thing that hasn't changed is sin and mankind's fascination with finding ways to kill each other.

However, the good news is all will be made right when His judgments are in the earth. In that, we can truly rejoice.

John Michael, Well said, in the above & it's all because Satan is misleading the entire inhabited Earth, everyone is mislead, except God's Chosen Ones.

[Dave in Tenn]

The second email in that little series is also timely.  There is a difference between 'rejoicing' and 'supporting'.

One thing that believing and understanding more and more the soveriegnty of God has done is given me a growing peace with the way the world operates, knowing that He works in all things whether they are visible and obvious to me, or not. 

The scripture that came to me after some reflection on events was this:

Rom 3:10-12  As the Scriptures say: "There is no one who is righteous, no one who is wise or who worships God.  All have turned away from God; they have all gone wrong; no one does what is right, not even one. 

Reactions to world events for most of us (who are not direct actors in them) is Spiritual.  No 'actor' and no 'reactor' is righteous.  No, not one.  Whatever my reaction, God is judging me with it because I'm not righteous either.  If you are going to take care, take care to not exclude yourself from what Scripture says about us all.  THAT'S what I have in common with Bin Laden.  That's what he had in common with me.  God is God, and nobody else is.  God is the Father who corrects His "children" without "rejoicing".  It's hard to obey the whole councel of God.  It's so hard, nobody can do it. 

One small aside.  There are many members of the forum who are not Americans.  They have their own histories (including histories with organized evil and terrorism) and their own national discussion on what is the 'right' response.  There is a saying that when America sneezes, the whole world catches cold.  It's good to remember as Americans to cover our mouths when going on too much about 'our country' and 'we', etc. etc.  It's only polite.

Now I'll join Mr. Job and shut up.      


   

[onelovedread]

I Corinthians 13: 6 "is not rejoicing in injustice, yet is rejoicing together with the truth," comes to mind.
I am not rejoicing but I am not unhappy that Osama is gone, as I think justice has been done. It may be hard not to rejoice if you were one who lost a loved one at the World Trade Center.

[JohnMichael]

The second email in that little series is also timely.  There is a difference between 'rejoicing' and 'supporting'.

One thing that believing and understanding more and more the soveriegnty of God has done is given me a growing peace with the way the world operates, knowing that He works in all things whether they are visible and obvious to me, or not. 

The scripture that came to me after some reflection on events was this:

Rom 3:10-12  As the Scriptures say: "There is no one who is righteous, no one who is wise or who worships God.  All have turned away from God; they have all gone wrong; no one does what is right, not even one. 

Reactions to world events for most of us (who are not direct actors in them) is Spiritual.  No 'actor' and no 'reactor' is righteous.  No, not one.  Whatever my reaction, God is judging me with it because I'm not righteous either.  If you are going to take care, take care to not exclude yourself from what Scripture says about us all.  THAT'S what I have in common with Bin Laden.  That's what he had in common with me.  God is God, and nobody else is.  God is the Father who corrects His "children" without "rejoicing".  It's hard to obey the whole councel of God.  It's so hard, nobody can do it. 

One small aside.  There are many members of the forum who are not Americans.  They have their own histories (including histories with organized evil and terrorism) and their own national discussion on what is the 'right' response.  There is a saying that when America sneezes, the whole world catches cold.  It's good to remember as Americans to cover our mouths when going on too much about 'our country' and 'we', etc. etc.  It's only polite.

Now I'll join Mr. Job and shut up.      
 

Please forgive me if I was in error. It was never my intention to offend anyone - only to be helpful.

[dave]

I am in no position to cast judgment. I just have a desire to give a helpful warning.

Rejoice: to be glad, to be happy. It doesn't mean one has to dance in the street.

Pro 24:17 In the falling of thine enemy rejoice not, And in his stumbling let not thy heart be joyful,

Job 31:29  If I rejoice at the ruin of my hater, And stirred up myself when evil found him, ...
Job 31:40  Instead of wheat let a thorn go forth, And instead of barley a useless weed! The words of Job are finished.

Oba 1:12  And--thou dost not look on the day of thy brother, On the day of his alienation, Nor dost thou rejoice over sons of Judah, In the day of their destruction, Nor make great thy mouth in a day of distress.

1Co 13:6  [Love] rejoiceth not over the unrighteousness, and rejoiceth with the truth;
1Co 13:7  all things it beareth, all it believeth, all it hopeth, all it endureth.

Would being happy in the fall of one's enemy be an extension of hatred?

Our nation has done some wicked things in its history. We are to obey it, and pray for its leaders, according to Romans 13, but how can we believe every word they tell us when most of it is a lie? 

He also claimed he did it, but there have been times when a person or group takes claim for something he/they did, in fact, not do. He may or may not have done what he was accused of. Were we really given the facts? If he didn't, how would a person who was happy in his death feel? He would be innocent, and he would have been judged falsely by his detractors.

He was raised to believe the United States is the "Great Satan." He was justified in his hatred for the West. He believed in Allah, and we are the infidels. Every nation does this to each other. History has been repeating itself for a long time. The only thing that hasn't changed is sin and mankind's fascination with finding ways to kill each other.

However, the good news is all will be made right when His judgments are in the earth. In that, we can truly rejoice.

Again...Well said my friend!

[acomplishedartis]

It's all an experience of Evil, the degree or the type of Evil is the only difference and that's always open to Carnal Debates, especially considering that none of us have all the facts about any particular Nation.

I agree, I have give many thoughts about how there is always many degrees, levels and types of evil and goodness, and Finally, the ones that have to stand firmly and make the best choices; is only our own selves.

I think it takes time to understand better these levels since the majority around have them all very twisted and wrong. Make the right judgements is not easy at all; I  see it as equalizing a song on a program /stereo to the right tune; one have to focus greatly, listen the bass, the acute sounds etc, and try to adjust it all in harmony, at list as best as we can.

For example the degree and level of evil in certain churches, corporations, markets, professions and 'whole nations main ideologies' can vary greatly by taking in account a great number of facts regarding each institution, place or whatever.

I know these concept sounds logic and easily to understand, but if we keep digging and digging, we will hopefully become more skillfull on adjusting the right tune, and with time we will hopefuly get rid of a vouch of old idols that we didn't knew where there.


a work in process
Moises

[Drew]

Good thoughts Bro. Moises! To complement yours; someone posted to Daddy's Girl about trimming the lamp and along with that, pruning the vine and laying aside every weight. Wow, how Good is our God!!??

[acomplishedartis]

Thanks Drew.
I saw that post about the lamp. I guess we all are in the bussines of overcoming necessary hard times, (some do have to do it more often than others...)