> General Discussions
The subjects of Lying and God's sovereignty
markn902:
You know what your motivations are its just a matter of being honest about it. And being honest is not the same as rationalizing ;) although sometimes they can be confusing. At this point in our journey towards God outside of religion we have the ability to look past the legalism and dogma and see truth. To start giving out "what if this" scenarios would do no good because each situation is different and God judges hearts so check that first. But even good intentions can have negative consequences to other people so we have to be sure that is not happening. I use this formula not just for lying but all gray issues..christmas..going to church..etc.. I am happy I have the freedom to make these decisions myself and not be enslaved to an organisation who usually see things as black or white. In reality life is really a whole lot of grey area.
Thats just me though.. :)
Stacey:
--- Quote from: zander on May 22, 2011, 03:46:08 PM ---The post by JohnMichael is a very good one as it says in scripture "all liars" have their part in the fire. So if you are lying in order to save someones life - is that an extra part of your consience thats then held accountable in the "fire"?
Ray says "The commandment is not against lying, but rather against "bearing false witness against a neighbor."
So, basically, is he saying we can lie so long as we dont harm anyone and its for a good purpose? So if my boss asks me if i have done a peice of work - and i havent because i was pressed for time and i risked his/her wrath if they knew i hadnt - is that bad? (supposing also the boss never found out either) I am sure there is no hard and fast answer to this
--- End quote ---
Hard and fast answer = DON'T LIE! 8)
Zander, in the examples you give here, the first one I think is a selfless compassionate act for another and the second is a selfish act of wickedness that could have easily been avoided by man-ing up, telling the truth and taking the heat for missing the mark. IMO, the first one could fetch a "well done, good and faithful servant" and the second, even though some would surely label it just a little white lie that didn't hurt anyone, that one gets burned out in the LOF.
The good thing about those of us who are having or will have their part in the LOF for lying is that it is God that decides what is and what is not a lie instead of us. I don't think Ray is endorsing lying.
HopeinChrist480:
--- Quote from: Kat on May 22, 2011, 07:51:22 PM ---
Hi HopeinChrist,
--- Quote ---Being baptized back before His Resurrection was an act of faith so it made this alright and receiving The Holy Spirit after His Resurrection remains an act of faith. In knowing this it would then be dangerous to go back to water baptism because this was only acceptable before His Resurrection. Thus we are now under Grace and not the law.
--- End quote ---
I would not say that it's "dangerous" to be baptized in water, it just won't 'save' you, just get you wet is all. We can not choose to have the spiritual baptism either, God will brings you to it to not.
--- Quote ---Wouldn't ignoring the movie altogether and finding a better way to learn the Godly parts, mean greater reward(s)?
--- End quote ---
We do not want to get caught in the legalism trap. What is okay for me, might not be so good for you or vise versa, as we all have different strengths and weaknesses. It is not up to us to find good works to do. If the Spirit of Christ is indwelling, He will do good works through you, He will see to it that the fruit of the spirit will be produced. So you do not have to worry about getting your works, the Spirit will accomplish whatever God so desire in you. We need to do what God brings to us and we can't find works our-self to increase our reward, that would be our works, not His works.
Ray explains this really well in the Bible study 'Do James and Paul Contradict?'
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9742.msg82512.html#msg82512 ------
“BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH”
In Ephesians 2, here Paul puts it all together for us.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith (alone)…
Is that what it says? That’s what Martin Luther would have you think it says. That’s what A. E. Knoch would have you think. That’s what Dobson and Billy Graham and all the rest of these guys, the modern Worldwide church of God, would have you believe. No!
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (‘this’ would be a better word)...
Now I‘ve always said ‘that,’ that being the faith. That that faith is not your own it’s the gift of God. But I think it is talking about ‘this’ or ‘these.’
v. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith…
‘This’ grace and ‘this’ faith, both of them, not just the one, but both of them.
v. 8 … not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
v. 9 Not of works…
Here it is, here we get to bring it on down. It’s “not of works,” it’s of FAITH. But it’s not your own faith, it’s this gift of God faith and this gift of God grace. That’s how you're saved, not by your works. Not by works, because that is something you do. This faith and this grace, it’s not yours, it comes from God. It a gift, that’s not yours, it’s God’s, but He gives it to you. That’s what is going to save you, not your own works. Your own works will not save you, it takes this gift of grace, gratuitous, free, favor, love from God and the faith of God as a gift to you. That’s going to save you, not your good works, lest you boast.
v. 9 …lest any man should boast.
Then you would say, ‘well I earned it, I did it, I deserve it, I did it and I earned it.’ It’s not of works. Now get the context here. Sometimes we read these verses and we don’t put them all together in one thought, in one sentence. This grace and this faith of God is given to you as a gift and that is what is going to save you, not your own works.
v. 10 For we are HIS workmanship…
Now if you read that, for WE are His workmanship, well then you lost it. No no no, you’ve got to know how to put the emphasis on the right words.
From Eph. 2:8-10, it’s grace and faith from GOD, a gift from GOD, not of yourself, from GOD, that saves you. Not your works, this gift is from GOD, for we are HIS workmanship…
What kind of workmanship?
v. 10 …created in Christ Jesus unto good works…
Now are good works absolutely essential to this thing called salvation? Absolutely, you just have to get it straight in your mind. It’s not your faith, it’s Christ’s faith, it’s God’s faith. It’s not your grace, it’s God’s grace. It’s not your works, it’s GOD’S works in you. Do you see it? It’s God’s works in you.
v. 10 …which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
This is ordained, it’s got to be. This is not like, ‘well it’s nice if you have some, but it’s okay if you don’t, because you’re saved by faith alone.’ No, this is essential. Do you see how he brings faith and works together? They are both essential, they just come from God.
But this idea that Paul taught faith and James taught works, is nonsense. If you believe that you can add the word ‘alone.’ It’s not faith alone, it’s faith and God working in you through Christ Jesus to do the good works that He’s declared you have to do.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Thanks for your response, Kat. I used to think that it was our faith but I always knew that it was God's Grace. Then, I learned from God that it was His faith working in us. I learned this even before you told me so but thanks for reminding me of the Truth.
tau:
In the beginning God created...
In my view, that which created the beginning is above anything that has been created (Potter vs Pot). Personally I am greatful and humbled that He took pity on me and though not perfect, by grace He has turned me into His workmanship, so having no rights, I patiently wait, observing little changes that would otherwise be easy to miss, I remain forever greatful. I look forward, with hope and prayer that though He may remove His comforts, atleast His mercies endures forever. So, in a round about way, I find it unlikely that a 'computer' could say to its maker, 'you could have created me differently' - having such a thought its an indictment in itself (nothing excites the devil more than finding opportunities to cast doubt - 'surely ye shall not die' - this has been his classical approach and he has not refined it, just adapted it to the 21st century ;D!!)
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him,and keepeth not his commandments,is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
So, having professed that we love God and want Him to use us as He see fit, I think is also important to know that it is neither His intentions nor His purpose to burden us unnecessarily, I am of the view that when presented with any situation, asking oneself 'what would Jesus do under the same circumstance' would go a long way, and remembering the golden rule also help :D - I generally check with my concience, if its troubled I stay away, if its 'impossible' to, I usually check how troubled I will become about after the incident, just a litmus test - I do not make it a habit to lie though, but to say I haven't since coming to His knowledge will be a lie itself - Lying is a sin (context is important though ;D)
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
HopeinChrist480:
It's wise that you understand the doctrine of free-will. The majority of Christianity has believed it even myself personally. Then I grew to learn the real Truth. There is no such thing as free-will. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FREE-WILL. I will further discuss though such is a complicated expedient. I start by saying that there are three types of will. No-Will (0% will, the only time you had no-will was when you were in an un-born state), Limited-Will (0. to the infinite decimal % to 99.9 infinite 9 %), Free-Will (Non-existent, only discussed).
Man-kind has limited-will but God's Sovereign Will is greater. We can choose to do whatever we want though should we? NO. Remember, choice is always two-fold. Sinful choices and Godly choices.
The one thing Jesus Christ cannot do is deny himself. Would the sovereign God be any different? Would the Holy Spirit be any different? No. Therefore self is the one and only hinderer preventing free-will from being possible. It can be argued that the " 'Himself' " in verse 13 of the following Scriptures actually refers to the Holy Spirit. However, I do not believe this to be true. Just because the Holy Spirit is the essence of God, doesn't mean that he's the self of God. Wouldn't this then mean that the Holy Spirit is God the Father? Yes. This cannot be true, because Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are PART of God and so being part of God, they are connected by Love, or the Father. God is self-existent. This means that He had no creator, but always exists, unchanging, from before time and always. The Holy Spirit was with the Father from the very beginning but this doesn't mean that he's God. It is notable that our limitation is that we are not God. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirits' one and only limitation is that they cannot deny themselves. If they denied themselves, they would be sinners. Mankind is such.
2 Timothy:12-13 (Concordant Literal)
12 if we are enduring, we shall be reigning together also; if we are disowning, He also will be disowning us;
13 if we are disbelieving, He is remaining faithful -- He cannot disown Himself."
God wills in us. Everything was planned ahead of time. Rest assured He is putting us through all the trials and sin in life for a reason and what is this reason?
Romans 8 18-23 (Concordant Literal)
18 For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory about to be revealed for us.
19 For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God.
20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation
21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.
23 Yet not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the spirit, we ourselves also, are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body.
To bring us back up again. Life is a journey.
:)
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