> General Discussions
The subjects of Lying and God's sovereignty
HopeinChrist480:
--- Quote from: Kat on May 22, 2011, 03:53:55 PM ---
We all know the 10 commandments and how we should obey 'the letter of the law,' which is to strictly obey exactly what it says. But we are now being judged by the spirit of the law or what is really in our heart.
--- End quote ---
In saying this you actually raise an interesting point. John baptized Jesus in the River Jordan and this was before his Resurrection. After His Resurrection there would be no need to be baptized in water because after His Resurrection there will be no need for the letter of the law because we are now judged by the spirit of the law. Just as the Old Testament is the shadow of things to come and the New Testament details the real deal. We are now baptized by the Holy Spirit. The physical was water and the spiritual is The Holy Spirit. Being baptized back before His Resurrection was an act of faith so it made this alright and receiving The Holy Spirit after His Resurrection remains an act of faith. In knowing this it would then be dangerous to go back to water baptism because this was only acceptable before His Resurrection. Thus we are now under Grace and not the law.
John 1:27-34 (Concordant Literal)
27 He it is Who, coming after me, has come to be in front of me, of Whom I am not worthy that I should be loosing the thong of His sandal."
28 These things occurred in Bethany, the other side of the Jordan river, where John was, baptizing.
29 On the morrow he is observing Jesus coming toward him, and is saying, "Lo! the Lamb of God Which is taking away the sin of the world!
30 This is He concerning Whom I said, 'After me is coming a Man Who has come to be in front of me,' for He was First, before me.
31 And I was not aware of Him. But that He may be manifested to Israel, therefore came I, baptizing in water."
32 And John testifies, saying that "I have gazed upon the spirit, descending as a dove out of heaven, and it remains on Him.
33 And I was not aware of Him, but He Who sends me to be baptizing in water, That One said to me, 'On Whomever you may be perceiving the spirit descending and remaining on Him, This is He Who is baptizing in holy spirit.'
34 And I have seen and have testified that This One is the Son of God."
Matthew 3:1-17 (Concordant Literal)
1 Now in those days, coming along is John the baptist, heralding in the wilderness of Judea,
2 saying: "Repent! for near is the kingdom of the heavens!"
3 For this is he of whom it is declared through Isaiah the prophet, saying, "The voice of one imploring: 'In the wilderness make ready the road of the Lord! Straight...be making the highways'" of Him!
4 Now he, John, had his apparel of camel's hair and a leather girdle about his loins. Now his nourishment was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem and entire Judea, and the entire country about the Jordan,
6 and they were baptized in the Jordan river by him, confessing their sins.
7 Now, perceiving many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Progeny of vipers! Who intimates to you to be fleeing from the impending indignation?
8 Produce, then, fruit worthy of repentance.
9 And you should not be presuming to be saying among yourselves, 'For a father we have Abraham,' for I am saying to you that able is God, out of these stones to rouse children to Abraham.
10 "Yet already the ax is lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, which is not producing ideal fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire.
11 For I, indeed, am baptizing you in water for repentance, yet He Who is coming after me is stronger than I, Whose sandals I am not competent to bear. He will be baptizing you in holy spirit and fire,
12 Whose winnowing shovel is in His hand, and He will be scouring His threshing floor, and will be gathering His grain into His barn, yet the chaff will He be burning up with unextinguished fire."
13 Then Jesus is coming along from Galilee to the Jordan to John to be baptized by him.
14 Yet John prohibited Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by Thee, and Thou art coming to me!"
15 Yet, answering, Jesus said to him, "by your leave, at present, for thus it is becoming for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he is giving Him leave.
16 Now, being baptized, Jesus straightway stepped up from the water, and lo! opened up to Him were the heavens, and He perceived the spirit of God descending as if a dove, and coming on Him.
17 And lo! a voice out of the heavens, saying, "This is My Son, the Beloved, in Whom I delight."
--- Quote from: Kat on May 22, 2011, 03:53:55 PM ---So it does seem like it's the real intent of the heart that God looks at and for which you will be judged.
Luke 6:43 "For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.
v. 44 For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush.
v. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
We can still live in the world and not be of the world. It's all about the intentions of the heart. Is it alright to watch a movie labeled mostly bad if you ignore the ungodliness and watch the parts that are of God? I think that the answer is yes but I'd like to know your thoughts. Wouldn't ignoring the movie altogether and finding a better way to learn the Godly parts, mean greater reward(s)? I think that the answer is yes, yet, again. Please share your thoughts on this as well.
1 John 2:14-17 (Concordant Literal)
14 I write to you, fathers, seeing that you know Him Who is from the beginning. I write to you, youths, seeing that you are strong and the word of God is remaining in you, and you have conquered the wicked one.
15 Be not loving the world, neither that which is in the world. If ever anyone is loving the world, the love of the Father is not in him,
16 for everything that is in the world, the desire of the flesh, and the desire of the eyes, and the ostentation of living, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world is passing by, and its desire, yet he who is doing the will of God is remaining for the eon.
Romans 12:2 (Concordant Literal)
2 and not to be configured to this eon, but to be transformed by the renewing of your mind, for you to be testing what is the will of God, good and well pleasing and perfect.
Dave in Tenn:
--- Quote from: zander on May 22, 2011, 03:46:08 PM ---The post by JohnMichael is a very good one as it says in scripture "all liars" have their part in the fire. So if you are lying in order to save someones life - is that an extra part of your consience thats then held accountable in the "fire"?
Ray says "The commandment is not against lying, but rather against "bearing false witness against a neighbor."
So, basically, is he saying we can lie so long as we dont harm anyone and its for a good purpose? So if my boss asks me if i have done a peice of work - and i havent because i was pressed for time and i risked his/her wrath if they knew i hadnt - is that bad? (supposing also the boss never found out either) I am sure there is no hard and fast answer to this
--- End quote ---
Oh yes, there's a hard answer to this, but it's not fast. ;D
One thing is pretty easy to fathom, however. We have a God who knows the very motives of our hearts, unlike the 'boss' in your example.
The Word of God is like a two-edged sword. Religion tries to make it a blunt instrument and bludgeon people with it. It's real intent, however, is to kill no matter which way it's swung. There is none righteous. No, not one.
Joel:
1 John 2:22 (KJV)
WHO is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?
He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1 John 2:22-23 (TLB)
And who is the greatest liar?
The one who says that Jesus is not Christ. Such a person is antichrist, for he does not believe in God the Father and in his Son. For a person who doesn't believe in Christ, God's Son, can't have God the Father either, But he who has Christ, God's Son, has God the Father also.
Joel
Kat:
Hi HopeinChrist,
--- Quote ---Being baptized back before His Resurrection was an act of faith so it made this alright and receiving The Holy Spirit after His Resurrection remains an act of faith. In knowing this it would then be dangerous to go back to water baptism because this was only acceptable before His Resurrection. Thus we are now under Grace and not the law.
--- End quote ---
I would not say that it's "dangerous" to be baptized in water, it just won't 'save' you, just get you wet is all. We can not choose to have the spiritual baptism either, God will brings you to it to not.
--- Quote ---Wouldn't ignoring the movie altogether and finding a better way to learn the Godly parts, mean greater reward(s)?
--- End quote ---
We do not want to get caught in the legalism trap. What is okay for me, might not be so good for you or vise versa, as we all have different strengths and weaknesses. It is not up to us to find good works to do. If the Spirit of Christ is indwelling, He will do good works through you, He will see to it that the fruit of the spirit will be produced. So you do not have to worry about getting your works, the Spirit will accomplish whatever God so desire in you. We need to do what God brings to us and we can't find works ourself to increase our reward, that would be our works, not His works.
Ray explains this really well in the Bible study 'Do James and Paul Contradict?'
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9742.msg82512.html#msg82512 ------
“BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH”
In Ephesians 2, here Paul puts it all together for us.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith (alone)…
Is that what it says? That’s what Martin Luther would have you think it says. That’s what A. E. Knoch would have you think. That’s what Dobson and Billy Graham and all the rest of these guys, the modern Worldwide church of God, would have you believe. No!
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that (‘this’ would be a better word)...
Now I‘ve always said ‘that,’ that being the faith. That that faith is not your own it’s the gift of God. But I think it is talking about ‘this’ or ‘these.’
v. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith…
‘This’ grace and ‘this’ faith, both of them, not just the one, but both of them.
v. 8 … not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
v. 9 Not of works…
Here it is, here we get to bring it on down. It’s “not of works,” it’s of FAITH. But it’s not your own faith, it’s this gift of God faith and this gift of God grace. That’s how you're saved, not by your works. Not by works, because that is something you do. This faith and this grace, it’s not yours, it comes from God. It a gift, that’s not yours, it’s God’s, but He gives it to you. That’s what is going to save you, not your own works. Your own works will not save you, it takes this gift of grace, gratuitous, free, favor, love from God and the faith of God as a gift to you. That’s going to save you, not your good works, lest you boast.
v. 9 …lest any man should boast.
Then you would say, ‘well I earned it, I did it, I deserve it, I did it and I earned it.’ It’s not of works. Now get the context here. Sometimes we read these verses and we don’t put them all together in one thought, in one sentence. This grace and this faith of God is given to you as a gift and that is what is going to save you, not your own works.
v. 10 For we are HIS workmanship…
Now if you read that, for WE are His workmanship, well then you lost it. No no no, you’ve got to know how to put the emphasis on the right words.
From Eph. 2:8-10, it’s grace and faith from GOD, a gift from GOD, not of yourself, from GOD, that saves you. Not your works, this gift is from GOD, for we are HIS workmanship…
What kind of workmanship?
v. 10 …created in Christ Jesus unto good works…
Now are good works absolutely essential to this thing called salvation? Absolutely, you just have to get it straight in your mind. It’s not your faith, it’s Christ’s faith, it’s God’s faith. It’s not your grace, it’s God’s grace. It’s not your works, it’s GOD’S works in you. Do you see it? It’s God’s works in you.
v. 10 …which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
This is ordained, it’s got to be. This is not like, ‘well it’s nice if you have some, but it’s okay if you don’t, because you’re saved by faith alone.’ No, this is essential. Do you see how he brings faith and works together? They are both essential, they just come from God.
But this idea that Paul taught faith and James taught works, is nonsense. If you believe that you can add the word ‘alone.’ It’s not faith alone, it’s faith and God working in you through Christ Jesus to do the good works that He’s declared you have to do.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
Grace:
AMEN Kat!! Thank you so much for posting this!! I tried to say this a couple of times in the past in so many ways but I'm finding I don't often communicate well so it's not received well at times but the meaning is the same. Ray makes the point right on target!! Thank you thank you thank you! ;D ;D ;D
Grace
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