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In need of some clarification.

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John from Kentucky:
I am now even more confident in what I wrote above.  See Ray's third article in the Lake of Fire series, "Judgment By Fire Must Begin at the House Of God".

It is filled with Scriptures, which are rightly divided.  The judgment by fire of the Elect now is similar to the Lake of Fire judgment of the world at the end of the ages.  The Greek word for fire is the same (Pur) for both judgments.

God is a consuming Fire.  His standards are the same for all mankind, both now and later------Perfection.  We all must become perfect just like our Father in Heaven.  Perfection is achieved by judgment by fire (symbolically).  The Fire is God.

Kat:

Hi John,


--- Quote ---It is true that the phrase Lake of Fire is referring to the end time judgment.  However, Ray has taught that Fire is symbolic of God.  We all will go through a judgment by Fire (God) whether it is now or in the Lake of Fire judgment.  "Our God is a consuming Fire."  Also, "God is no respecter of persons".

All will be judged by Fire (God), whether now or later.  "Judgment is now on the House of God", and it is a judgment by Fire.  Fire is not a bad thing because it symbolically refers to God.  God (Fire) is spiritually burning out all that is evil or wrong in His people, and is thereby forming His jewels.
--- End quote ---

I would explain this in my own words, but you know how I love to post excerpts of Ray's  :)

http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm ----------------------------

"For God did not appoint us to INDIGNATION ..." (I Thes. 5:9).

It nowhere says that God has not appointed us to trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, death, or hurricanes! In fact, Paul himself, tells us that we enter the Kingdom of God by going through a whole lot of these things (Acts 14:22).

I personally, presently, am going through trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, and two very near death experiences in the past few years, not to mention hurricane Andrew. But, nonetheless, it is a great comfort to me to know that God has not appointed me to His indignation. Believers are chastised by a wise Father out of LOVE, the nations will be punished by an angry God out of VENGEANCE. Can we not see the difference? (Actually God’s "anger and vengeance" is also out of love, but the nations will certainly not initially perceive it as such).

When we look at all the ways that "indignation" is used in the Greek Scriptures, it becomes overwhelmingly clear that "indignation" is used of God to punish the wicked and stubborn. Indignation is not a direct form of chastisement. No matter how many, how much, how often, how severe your sufferings and tribulations may be, if you love God you can be absolutely guaranteed that not one iota of it is coming upon you in the form of God’s indignation. Here then is how, on whom, and when God pours out His indignation:

"Progeny of vipers! Who intimates to you to be fleeing from the impending indignation?" (Matt. 3:7).

"For God’s indignation is being revealed from heaven on all the irreverence and injustice of men ..." (Rom. 1:18).

"Yet, in accord with your hardness and unrepentant heart you are hoarding for yourself indignation in the day of indignation and revelation of the just judgment of God ..." (Rom. 2:5).

"Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him" (Rom. 5:9).

"Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation ..." (Rom. 9:22).

"Being at peace with all mankind, you are not avenging yourselves, beloved, but be giving place to His indignation, for it is written, "Mine is vengeance! I will repay! The Lord is saying" (Rom. 12:19).

"Let no one be seducing you with empty words, for because of these things the indignation of God is coming on the sons of stubbornness" (Eph. 5:6).

"Deaden, then, your members that are on the earth: prostitution, uncleanness, passion, evil desire and greed, which is idolatry, because of which the indignation of God is coming on the sons of stubbornness ..." (Col. 3:5-6).

"Wherefore, ‘I am disgusted with this generation, and said, Ever are they straying in heart; Yet they know not My ways,’ As I swear in My indignation, If they shall be entering into My rest ...!" (Heb. 3:10-11).

"Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him Who is sitting on the throne, and from the indignation of the Lambkin, for the great day of Their indignation came, and who is able to stand? (Rev. 6:17).

"And the nations are angered, and Thy indignation came, and the era for the dead to be judged, and to give their wages to Thy slaves, the prophets, and to the saints and to those fearing Thy name, the small and the great, and to blight those who are blighting the earth" (Rev. 11:18-19).

"If anyone is worshiping the wild beast and its image, and is getting an emblem on his forehead or on his hand, he, also, is drinking of the wine of the fury of God, blended undiluted in the cup of His indignation, and he shall be tormented in fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy messengers and in the sight of the Lambkin" (Rev. 14:10).

"And Babylon the great is brought to remembrance in the sight of God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of His indignation" (Rev. 16:19).

"And He is treading the wine trough of the fury of the indignation of God, the Almighty" (Rev. 19:16).

There are the Greek Scriptures on indignation. Notice that it always comes from God. It is poured out in vengeance upon the unrepentant, the stubborn, the unjust and irreverent, those who worship the beast, etc. Never is God’s indignation poured out on His SAINTS! Not the Gentile saints and not the Jewish saints. The saints of Israel have not "been appointed to indignation", they are not "of the night," they will not "be overtaken as a thief," they are a part of "all the saints," I Thes. 2:14 and 3:13.
---------------------------------------------------------------


--- Quote ---Further, as you know, there is no free will.  We do not decide which resurrection we are in.  God has already decided, before He created the world, who was going to be in the 1st Resurrection.  It is a total futile exercise to wish to be in the 1st Resurrection.  You either will be, or you will not be.  The Potter has already decided.
--- End quote ---

This is true, BUT we do not know what God has decided.
It sounds like you are saying I might as well just sit back and wait on God, because God has already decide and nothing I do will make a difference. Since I don't know what God has decided (regardless of which one I will actually be in), but since I don't know which one it will be, I am going to shot for the first. I know it's not by my own effort, but where do you think I get the will and determination from? I would think it's a lackadaisical attitude that is of more concern. Anyway that's what I'm thinking on this.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

DougE6:

I have to say I agree with everything in Kats last post. I don't see anywhere in the New Testament where a lackadaisical attitude concerning salvation (which means to ESCAPE the Lake of Fire, not go through it) is condoned. Everything I see written is COMPLETELY the opposite. The New Testament is written for us to, by faith, follow Jesus in this life, go through our LOVING judgements from God, and then to be resurrected to rule with Christ to bring all the rest of creation into subjection.  It is not going to be easy to go through that subjection, which will not be by faith, but by an iron scepter.  And even if you are one of those who are beaten with only a few stripes, Oh what a huge loss, to miss out on the Kingdom of God.  That is what missing the First resurrection and going through the Lake of Fire means...you are MISSING OUT on the Kingdom of God. Oh, the end, the final end, the consumation, as far forward in time as the biblical eye can see, that will be glorious, for all, but to miss out on the Kingdom, on Jesus? God forbid. I will never stop hungering for that more than anything else this life can offer.

Mat 13:40  Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
Mat 13:41  The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
Mat 13:42  and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43  Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
Mat 13:44  "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
Mat 13:45  "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls,
Mat 13:46  who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.
Mat 13:47  "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind.
Mat 13:48  When it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into containers but threw away the bad.
Mat 13:49  So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous
Mat 13:50  and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

gmik:
I tend to think more like John and Zander and Joe on this.  WE aren't the wicked that God is angry at.  We are believers.  We are truth seekers and rejoice in that truth.

Jesus and Paul told many people to just go, sin no more, live your lives, love your neighbor....Paul didn't even tell many people to be like him and be a missionary to the entire world. that super Christian I have always tried to be like at church is impossible.

Zander, we may not be called to be the "Rays" of this world...but we have a guide to follow-the Bible-Paul talks alot about day to day living. Paul sinned a lot too..(Oh wretched man that I am)..well I cant compaire myself to him either.

Just being an agree-er to Ray's writings does not get us in the first.  Doug and Kat, sorry, but those scriptures don't speak at all to me tonite-maybe I am just in a mood---oops not spiritual so I can't be in the first??? They don't edify the saints.  I don't feel God is angry at me at all- He loves me no matter what I do and If I walk thru that pond of purification He said in Psalms He will be with me.

imho

Dave in Tenn:
Hi Zander.

This is a parable that you've quoted part of.  We know (or ought to know) that this means it refers to the many and the few.  I was almost persuaded at one point to believe that the 'many' was the whole world outside of the elect.  Then Ray wrote his rebuttal of 23 minutes in Hell and was kind enough to include illustrations so that even the weak minded like me could return to what I first believed.  The ones 'given much' who will recieve 'many stripes' are not the Elect of God.  They are not the lost and sinful world.  They are the church.  They are only the Church and nothing but the church.  They are the ones we came from, and some of us (like Paul) were even leaders in those congregations.  Read the parables in that chapter again with that thought and see if it doesn't make more sense?  Are the elect of God "beating the maidens and youths"?  I don't think so.

To the extent that I am OUT OF HER, I am IN HIM.  The world can't say that.  Only the few.

As far as your sins go, if you can stop them, do.  But as Ray says, God will give you the desire to stop sinning long before He gives you the ability.  Right now, you may just have a fuzzy little wish to maybe one day actually want to stop.  I don't know.  God is God.

There's so much to know that won't fit in a forum post.  Keep reading what Ray wrote and take what the forum says with due caution.

Hang in there.  Study.   

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