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[AK4]

Hi everyone, long time no speak for me but ive always been here.

Anyway ive been thinking on this a long time myself and i always wondered on the promises made in the scriptures that God will fulfill all our hopes and dreams and wishes.  Personally, i believed this always because this was always taught even in "babylon" but even after reading the scriptures all these years and never "seeing" this phrase before i wondered if it really says this in scripture, then comes Rays teaching "YOU GOT TO PAY ATTENTION TO ALL THE WORDS".  So while rereading the same scriptures ive read countless times i find many places, especially in the Psalms saying He will fulfill our desires and that believers will see God.

Well at first i took the believers "will see God" as yes we will see Jesus, our Lord and God but since we have been shown the truth about the falseness of the trinity, could this also mean we will at sometime see the Father?--- i add in the fact of  that God will fulfill all of our wishes and desires and i truly believe that most of us desire and wish that one day or at some time in the coming eons we get to see the Father.  The only thing i could think of that this "wish of some of ours" doesnt come to pass is that it was never in Gods will for this to happen or its not in the "rules" He set.  For example there are some hopes and dreams man has but they just violate the set rules or standards God has set (like travelling to the past) so maybe this one could be that case.  Personally i hope and wish and dream that we will someday see the Father.

One last point, our thoughts and dreams and wishes do not originate on their own and it was God who has made some of us have this hope or wish so maybe.... I dont know, just my two cents

Anyway, i miss posting with you guys and nice talking to yas again.  Hopefully God moves me more to posting.

In Jesus

Anthony

[Kat]

Hi Grape,

We are all just discussing what our preceptions are at this time. My comments were not directed at what you were saying in any way to disaparage your understanding. I was merely putting forth where my own understanding had developed from. As you said and I agree, "Now, each perspective has its own Perception, because we internalise what we see and conclude a perception based on that perspective.

It's good to hear all of our different preceptions on a matter, much food for though 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[daywalker]

I think we may be getting bogged down here with the 'treachery of words'!
Words are pretty clumsy things when it comes to expressing infinitely finer meanings.


And I've just read Daywalkers post in the middle of this and this whole caboodle seems to have gone off the rails! LOL!  I'm not in disagreement with either of you!


Muchest Luv

Grape x

Oops, I did it again! Sorry, Grape! My posted wasn't directed "at" you nor was it intended as "debatin' words" of any sort. I was actually thinking about some weird stuff I've read/heard from other people, outside of the forum; reading through this thread and contemplating what different people said sparked my memory, which caused me to ramble a bit. Apologies for the confusion.

Daywalker 

[grapehound]

Kat and Chris, I was just reading my last response over and my phrasing does read a little 'edgy' and gives the impression that I was a bit 'cut'. Not intentional.
I was overtired at the end of a long day and wasn't choosing my words very well!
I love you both very much and know just how loving and sensitive you both are.
I'm always impressed by the quality of your individual input.

His richest blessings to you both. 

Muchest Luv

Grape xx

[daywalker]

Kat and Chris, I was just reading my last response over and my phrasing does read a little 'edgy' and gives the impression that I was a bit 'cut'. Not intentional.
I was overtired at the end of a long day and wasn't choosing my words very well!
I love you both very much and know just how loving and sensitive you both are.
I'm always impressed by the quality of your individual input.

His richest blessings to you both. 

Muchest Luv

Grape xx

Right back at ya! 

Christopher

[Rene]

There are no definite right or wrong answers. You can answer a simple yes/no or comment further if you feel lead to. Just would like to hear your thoughts.

Thanks

Marques

Yes, I believe we will see the Father, even if I don't know at this time what seeing Him really means. 

Thanks, Marques, if nothing else, this thread motivated me to listen to that bible study again.  As always, I got a lot out of it and felt inspired and uplifted.

René

[onelovedread]

I say yes. Here's why I think so. 1 Thessalonians 4: 17 "After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.". Seems to me that if we're going to be with the Lord (the Son) forever, then it implies that we will be in the presence of the Father and therefore will be able to see Him.

[sansmile]

Well Rene,  Christ, i beleived  said, if u have seen me u have seen the  Father and  even Christ Himself shall be given a new name one day and all power  will be HANDED  back  to the FATHER  so that all will be in all.
(1Co 15:28)  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Sandie x

[Joel]

I think we will see the Father also.
Being in the "presence" of God as seen in the various references in the Bible helps me to know, that to be there is something not to be taken lightly.
Adam and Eve were made to leave the presence of God after being in Eden, and their contact with God became less and less, and they did come to know evil more and more.
 Moses's face is said to have glowed, or made to shine after being in such close contact with God on the mount.

The angel Gaberial is said to "stand in the presence of God." Gods power, and Glory can no doubt be felt, And I think have a "center" for the lack of a better word.

Jesus is the Word of God, and a body was prepared for him to do the things required of him during his physical existence here on this earth, so why could God the Father not appear to his sons and daughters if he chose to do so? With God all things are possible, while keeping in mind that nothing can contain his greatness and limit him in any way.
Nothing can or will surpass the presence, closeness, and fellowship to be had with the Father, and the Son, in that Godly relationship that is to come.

Joel

[indianabob]

Daywalker,
re; God's form or no form?

My Greek/English has the following in Jn 5:37b.

"....Neither sound of him ever yet you have heard nor visible form of him you have seen"

It would seem that this wording does not necessarily prove that God utters sound or has a form that would be visible.
It just says that the reader or the person being spoken to has never heard God speak or seen God. It would include others as well.
Based on this section of scripture alone, I think the question is still unsatisfied.

The point of the text may be to discourage folks from thinking that God speaks to them audibly by vibrating the air as opposed to putting thoughts in their heart.

Also, consider maybe God communicates mind to mind in the full spiritual realm after we are changed.

Please comment, Indiana Bob

I would say, "yes", we will SEE the Father someday. Here's my thinking:

"See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is." 1 John 3:2

Now, some could use Christ's statement that "He who has seen Me has seen the Father" as a counter. However, I believe this next verse further supports my stance:

"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has SEEN the Father." John 6:47

How did Christ ever "see" the Father? It wouldn't make sense for Him to say He's seen the Father "through" Himself (Jesus). So, then, I'd say that, Yes, Jesus has actually (somehow) seen the Father visibly. And if we are to become exactly like Christ is, then I'd say, just as Christ has "seen" the Father, so shall we.


And, furthermore:

"And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form." John 5:37

Notice that Jesus never said the Father does not have a "voice", and He never said the Father does not have a "form"; He just said we've never "heard" or "seen" them.


so that's my thoughts...

Daywalker 

[Stacey]

My thoughts on one of the verses mentioned from the excerpt.

1Tim 6:16  Who only has immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.


Who only has immortality - This is Jesus, he is the only mortal who has received immortality. He is the first.

dwelling in the light - This is telling us where Jesus is. He has immortality and he can and does dwell in the light, and the light is that..

which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see - this is speaking of the Father, He is the light that man/mortals cannot approach or see.

To me the ability to see or behold without dieing and dwell in the light or to completely be in the Father is part of the glory Jesus was referring to when he said,

Joh 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self (the light) with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

He wanted that back. To be able to once again dwell in the Father. If my thinking is right then when we receive immortality then we too will dwell/live in the light and see the Father the same way Jesus does.

[Kat]

Hi Stacy,

To me the ability to see or behold without dieing and dwell in the light or to completely be in the Father is part of the glory Jesus was referring to when he said,

Joh 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self (the light) with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

He wanted that back. To be able to once again dwell in the Father. If my thinking is right then when we receive immortality then we too will dwell/live in the light and see the Father the same way Jesus does.

Yes that the way it seems to me too. This Scripture in John seems to reflect that idea.

John 1:18  No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

"In the bosom of the Father" what a great expression that is, in His bosom/embrace. Like you were saying, "when we receive immortality then we too will dwell/live in the light," that to me is His bosom.

To me it is such a comfort to look at it that way, much like when a mother holds/embraces her little child. A child wants to be right there in their mother's lap, all safe and secure, and those in the first resurrection will be all safe and secure in the Father's bosom/embrace.

Mat 18:2  And Jesus called a little child to Him and set him in their midst,
v. 3  and said, Truly I say to you, Unless you are converted and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.
v. 4  Therefore whoever shall humble himself like this little child, this one is the greater in the kingdom of Heaven.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[daywalker]

Daywalker,
re; God's form or no form?

My Greek/English has the following in Jn 5:37b.

"....Neither sound of him ever yet you have heard nor visible form of him you have seen"

It would seem that this wording does not necessarily prove that God utters sound or has a form that would be visible.
It just says that the reader or the person being spoken to has never heard God speak or seen God. It would include others as well.
Based on this section of scripture alone, I think the question is still unsatisfied.

The point of the text may be to discourage folks from thinking that God speaks to them audibly by vibrating the air as opposed to putting thoughts in their heart.

Also, consider maybe God communicates mind to mind in the full spiritual realm after we are changed.

Please comment, Indiana Bob

Hey Bob, thanks for sharing the Greek/English translation. The phrases "yet you have heard" and "you have seen" still stick out to me, though I do agree with you that:

Based on this section of scripture alone, I think the question is still unsatisfied.

As we have all learned, only with "two or three witnesses" can a truth be known. Whether or not The Father has some type of "spirit form" that can be seen with the eyes of a "spirit body" remains, at this time, up to interpretation (not that having a "spirit form/body" would in any way limit The Father, since we know He is everywhere). There's clearly a lot we don't yet know...but it's nice to have people with which to discuss these things without starting a quarrel. 


Godspeed....Daywalker 

[indianabob]

Hey Daywalker, much appreciated.
I'm 50 years older than you and retired so I have LOTS of time.
Plus my whole life is wrapped up in serving you brother.   

Of course I don't know it all, so correction is expected.
However, please be gentle. Old people have brittle bones.
Indiana bob

[daywalker]

LOL...I'll do my best 

[Craig]

Hey Bob according to Alex I'm elderly and in my forties.  I wonder what you are?  Ancient?  Indianabob BC? 

Looking for my walker....

Craig

[lilitalienboi16]

Well as I said, I did believe that God the Father could not be contained to a shape or image. It just seemed that He was too immense/glorious for that to me. But in the last Bible study what Ray was saying made me rethink this whole thing. Here is little part of the Bible study.

I'm with ya, Kat!

I don't believe the Father could be "contained" to a shape or form, but who's to say that He can't "appear" in a shape or form, like Jesus did several times after His resurrection? I mean, if Jesus is capable of walking the earth in human form, I would venture to say the Father could if He wanted to. I'm well aware that God is not a human, and no I don't believe the Father is 'an old man with a long grey beard' sitting on some throne somewhere in the celestials (LOL), but that doesn't mean He couldn't "appear" as one if He wanted to. As I said earlier, Jesus never said the Father had NO "voice" or "form". That doesn't belittle Him or 'reduce' Him one iota, in my opinion.

Sometimes, I think people let their imaginations run wild with all this "spiritual" stuff (meaning: spiritual beings, spiritual things). Just because "spirit beings" are invisible to us, doesn't mean they can't be visible ever, at all. Take angels and demons for example. I believe they exist. I can't see them, but I believe they are here. Can angels see each other? I think so. Can demons see each other? I think so. But how? Well, they must have a "form" of some sort that is visible to other spirit beings. How else would "Legion" have known that they "were many" if they couldn't see each other? When God spoke to Satan before Job's trials, could God see Satan? I think so. That would require Satan to have some sort of form, I venture. Could Satan see God? That's a good question, in my opinion. Jesus said no "man" has ever seen God at any time, but Satan is not a man, so perhaps he can see God?

Just speculation, I know. But things gotta make sense to me, and I don't see how the idea of us all being completely "invisible" not being able to see each other, interact with each other, can be of any comfort or joy. I'd like to think that when it's all said and done, we can all hang out together and chat about old times...that could just be my carnal side, though. 


Just sayin... Daywalker 

What you said makes alot of sense daywalker! Some great points and I also agree with kat.

I can't imagine going an eternity without never trully seeing the Father, hearing HIS voice. For now, I'll deal with it, but comon.. you can't hold out on me forever!! xD <3

[Dave in Tenn]

Maybe we've already "seen" the Father.  I'll use the quotation marks because Marques did.

Joh 14:7  If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:8  Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11  Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

The fish is in the water.  The water is in the fish.  Jesus is the "everlasting (age-abiding) Father".

Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Anyways, John chapter 14 is deep stuff, and the apostles didn't understand it either.  Still, Jesus saith ..."because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed".  One of these days, eyes are not going to matter.  Blessed is he who is getting a taste of that now.     

[Kat]

Hi Dave,

That reminds me of the email I sent Ray a little while ago, I had ask that question.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7500.0.html --------

The other part of John 5 also says "you have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape." Yet Christ seems to be stating that the disciples did see the Father when they see Him.

COMMENT: He not only "seems to be stating," He literally IS stating. But if the Father is invisible spirit, how can He be seen through visible humanity?

Are we to believe that somehow the Father looks like a man? And doesn't the Bible say that "God is NOT a man?" Actually, it doesn't. We are yet allowing the theology of Christendom to influence our thinking. I have used Numbers 23:19 myself in the past as a verse that shows that "God is not a man." But that is not really what this verse or I Sam. 15:29 are saying at all. There is no period (.) after the word "man" in either verse.

When one sees a comma or a semi-colon, it means that there is more to follow, and often brings out a totally different textual meaning than is meant by presenting only fragments of a sentence. The same is true with teaching that God never changes. What proof do we have for this? Why Mal. 3:6, right? Wrong! Read it: "For I am the LORD, [comma] I change NOT; [semi-colon--ah, there's more to follow that shows in what WAYS God does not change]..." More on all these things later in my study.
v
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

COMMENT: Yes He is. But think about this: As Jesus is the image of His Father, His Father MUST HAVE AN IMAGE. Not only is Jesus the image of the invisible God, but He made humanity likewise: "Let Us make man [Heb: 'humanity'] IN OUR IMAGE" (Gen. 1:26). I have known for thirty years that the Hebrew word for "image" always means "form, image, and shape," and never means "spiritual or moral character." So how can humanity be made in God's "image" if He doesn't have an image?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Just thought I would add this to the discussion.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[grapehound]

Dave in Tenn, that's a very valid point. I'm inclined to agree.
Kat, bless you for that mail excerpt; very illuminating.

Every blessing,

Grape