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Author Topic: "Soul Sleep"  (Read 15380 times)

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Ian

  • Guest
"Soul Sleep"
« on: June 30, 2011, 04:45:59 PM »

Hello,

I have a question regarding what happens when one dies. Now, I believe that when one dies, they are dead not alive somewhere else; "sleeping" until resurrection.

Recently, however, I have come across some confusing passages and was hoping that you could (would) please help me?

The Scriptural support I have for "soul sleep" (a term which is actually a misnomer), are the following verses: Ps. 115:17, Ps. 6:5, Ps. 146:6, Is. 38:18a, Joshua 1:1-2, Job 14:13-14, Ps. 49:15, Ecclesiastes 9:10, 1 Corinthians 15:18-19, 1 Thes. 4:13-14,...


However, while researching the subject, I ran across some verses the other night that perplexed me. They are: Hebrews 9:27, 2 Corinthians 5:6-8, Philippians 1:23, 2 Corinthians 12:4, 1 Peter 3:18-20...

I still believe in this doctrine, but I'm pretty confused right now. Please help me.

Ian.

P.S. Yes, I have read Ray's material regarding this "doctrine". That is why I believe what I do.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 05:07:28 PM by Ian »
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: "Soul Sleep"
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2011, 05:58:54 PM »



Hello Ian

Welcome to the Forum.

It is refreshing to see a Beren who is thinking, seeking, investigating and is at liberty to express the desire for deeper insight and understanding into the ways of Father and Son.

What perplexes me, is the comfort that Dictatorial Doctrinal Religion professes in placing focus and physical idols to keep our eyes on the death of Jesus and not the Glorious message that is contained in the victory over death in the Resurrection of Jesus.

The Kingdom of God is within. They agree. Yet do they teach that the King is in the Kingdom, within? Nope ~ :D

I know a few who research, think and have a vista of insight that is magnificent. Maybe they will see you and drop you a line ~ :)

Arc



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grapehound

  • Guest
Re: "Soul Sleep"
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2011, 07:11:11 PM »

Hi Ian, welcome to the Forum.
Can you please elaborate a little on why the second list of verses perplex you?

Grape
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: "Soul Sleep"
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2011, 08:07:56 PM »


Hi Ian,

Welcome to the forum  :)

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

For the many this is speaking about a physical death in this life and then resurrected to judgment in the lake of fire. For the few now we are dying to self and are being judged now, "for the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God" (1Pe 4:17).

2Cor 12:4  How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paul had just said in verse 1 "I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord."

Here is a email explanation for 2 Cor. 5:8.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=1265.0 ------

Most Christians believe that this verse read: "to be absent from the body   IS   to be present with the Lord."  Not so. Even the King James doesnot have the word "is" in it, but rather "and."

Here is maybe the very best translation on this verse:

"Rather to be away from homes, out of the body, and to COME home unto the Lord"  (Rotherham's Bible).

Either way: King James--"and TO BE [FUTURE]..."  Or Rotherham--"and to COME..."  It is something that happens sometime after death, not at death. It, of course, happens at the Resurrection of the dead, which is yet future.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Php 1:23  For I am pressed together by the two: having a desire to depart and to be with Christ, which is far better.

This verse is the same as in the email. Paul was speaking about when he died the next moment of his consciousness would be at the resurrection and he knew he would be with Christ, as if in a instant.

Hope this helps.

mercy, peace and love
Kat





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daywalker

  • Guest
Re: "Soul Sleep"
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2011, 08:38:03 PM »


Hello Ian, welcome to the BT Forum!


Hebrews 9:27-28 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so also Christ died once for all time as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him.

Not sure what the confusion is here, this passage is pretty self-explanatory. Everyone dies; then those who face judgment are resurrected in the "resurrection to judgment". (John 5:29; Acts 24:15) Can you please explain what confuses you?


2 Corinthians 5:6-8 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Don't make the common mistake of misinterpreting this verse as if it said "TO BE absent from the body is TO BE present with the Lord". That's not what it means or implies. Paul talks often of dead people being "put to repose" or asleep until resurrection, as you already know seeing that you included a few quotes from his letters in your post.

When all else fails, read the context. The key to understanding this passage is in the previous 5 verses:

For we are aware that, if our terrestrial tabernacle house should be demolished, we have a building of God, a house not made by hands, eonian, in the heavens. For in this also we are groaning, longing to be dressed in our habitation which is out of heaven, if so be that, being dressed also, we shall not be found naked. For we also, who are in the tabernacle, are groaning, being burdened, on which we are not wanting to be stripped, but to be dressed, that the mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now He Who produces us for this same longing is God, Who is also giving us the earnest of the spirit. - Concordant Literal Translation

Notice the italicized parts. This "terrestrial tabernacle house" that Paul is speaking about is our body (with its sinful lusts and carnal mind). We are groaning and burdened because of our daily battles against our sinful nature. That's why Paul says we prefer to be away from the body, so that we can be free from its sinful lusts and cravings. Being "at home with the Lord" is not speaking of Heaven. When Jesus returns and sets up His Kingdom, we will be "at home" with Him.


Philippians 1:23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.

Don't make the assumption that Paul thinks he will be "instantly" with Christ once he dies. But let's also understand that when we die, we "return" the same state we were before we were born: unconsciousness. So, think about it this way: Paul is dead right now. He's been dead for over 1,900 years. But he doesn't "know" it (Ecclesiastes 9:5). When Paul is resurrected, the last thing he will remember is how he died. So, from his perspective, it will seem as though he departed, and then was at home with Christ! That's good and comforting news if you ask me!


2 Corinthians 12:1-4 I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to VISIONS and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.

This is similar to the event in Matthew 17:9. It was a "vision", like a dream. This man Paul knew had a vision. Not sure what he means by "whether in the body or out of the body I do not know", but he states clearly that this was a vision, which is not an actual event.


1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

The phrase "in which" refers to the Spirit.. He was "made alive in the Spirit, in which..." speaking of the same Spirit "He went and preached..." When did He preach? Long ago "while the ark was being prepared". I believe the key to understanding this passage is in 2 Peter 2:4-5:

For if God ... did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;

Noah was a "preacher". Peter says that the ancient prophets spoke through and were influenced by the "spirit of Christ" (1 Peter 1:11). So, when Noah "preached", warning those people of the coming judgment of the deluge, he spoke by the Spirit of Christ.


Hope this helps.

Daywalker  8)

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G. Driggs

  • Guest
Re: "Soul Sleep"
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2011, 09:00:38 PM »

1Pe 3:18  For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
1Pe 3:19  in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
1Pe 3:20  who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Added verse 21 because it gives clues as to what these verses are referring to. It is not that Jesus went and preached to those who died in the flood, but that the flood was a type/shadow of spiritual baptism that cleans us of sin.

It seems that the use of the word "prison" in these verses is another name for "practicing sinners".

Thankfully these verses do not stand alone, or else I would have still believed Jesus went on some preaching mission in hell immediately after He died. This is something I used to actually preach to others before finding BT, so I can relate to you being perplexed.

Isa 61:1  The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners;

This prophecy in Isa. was actually fulfilled BEFORE Jesus was killed and resurrected.

Luk 4:17  And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18  "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
Luk 4:19  TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD."
Luk 4:20  And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him.
Luk 4:21  And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."

Hope this helps,

G.Driggs

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Revilonivek

  • Guest
Re: "Soul Sleep"
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2011, 09:41:21 PM »

Hello,

I have a question regarding what happens when one dies. Now, I believe that when one dies, they are dead not alive somewhere else; "sleeping" until resurrection.

Recently, however, I have come across some confusing passages and was hoping that you could (would) please help me?

The Scriptural support I have for "soul sleep" (a term which is actually a misnomer), are the following verses: Ps. 115:17, Ps. 6:5, Ps. 146:6, Is. 38:18a, Joshua 1:1-2, Job 14:13-14, Ps. 49:15, Ecclesiastes 9:10, 1 Corinthians 15:18-19, 1 Thes. 4:13-14,...


However, while researching the subject, I ran across some verses the other night that perplexed me. They are: Hebrews 9:27, 2 Corinthians 5:6-8, Philippians 1:23, 2 Corinthians 12:4, 1 Peter 3:18-20...

I still believe in this doctrine, but I'm pretty confused right now. Please help me.

Ian.

P.S. Yes, I have read Ray's material regarding this "doctrine". That is why I believe what I do.

Yeah. The account of Paul's experience mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12:4, he explained it in depth in an gospel that was removed. He talked about what he saw during his experience in that removed gospel. I think that experience occurred when he was stoned and left for dead. (found in Acts)And what's interesting is that Paul mentioned he visited third heaven in 2 Corinthians 12:4, the theology of different heavens were also explained in depth in 2 enoch that was also removed(almost included but wasn't) it actually quotes scriptures from jude that is in the bible too. There's many details that was removed that may have made some scriptures make more sense.

Sorry I couldn't be much help,

Denise







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daywalker

  • Guest
Re: "Soul Sleep"
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2011, 10:16:03 PM »

1Pe 3:18  For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
1Pe 3:19  in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,
1Pe 3:20  who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
1Pe 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Added verse 21 because it gives clues as to what these verses are referring to. It is not that Jesus went and preached to those who died in the flood, but that the flood was a type/shadow of spiritual baptism that cleans us of sin.

It seems that the use of the word "prison" in these verses is another name for "practicing sinners".

Thankfully these verses do not stand alone, or else I would have still believed Jesus went on some preaching mission in hell immediately after He died. This is something I used to actually preach to others before finding BT, so I can relate to you being perplexed.

Isa 61:1  The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, Because the LORD has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners;

This prophecy in Isa. was actually fulfilled BEFORE Jesus was killed and resurrected.

Luk 4:17  And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to Him. And He opened the book and found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18  "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR. HE HAS SENT ME TO PROCLAIM RELEASE TO THE CAPTIVES, AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET FREE THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED,
Luk 4:19  TO PROCLAIM THE FAVORABLE YEAR OF THE LORD."
Luk 4:20  And He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on Him.
Luk 4:21  And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."

Hope this helps,

G.Driggs




Thanks!!  :)
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Ian

  • Guest
Re: "Soul Sleep"
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2011, 01:19:55 AM »


Hello Ian, welcome to the BT Forum!


Hebrews 9:27-28 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, so also Christ died once for all time as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him.

Not sure what the confusion is here, this passage is pretty self-explanatory. Everyone dies; then those who face judgment are resurrected in the "resurrection to judgment". (John 5:29; Acts 24:15) Can you please explain what confuses you?

My confusion stemmed from the fact that orthodoxy makes it seem like when you die, you're immediately judged.

I did think of your truth, though (after one dies, resurrection, then judgment).

Quote
Yeah. The account of Paul's experience mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12:4, he explained it in depth in an gospel that was removed. He talked about what he saw during his experience in that removed gospel. I think that experience occurred when he was stoned and left for dead. (found in Acts)And what's interesting is that Paul mentioned he visited third heaven in 2 Corinthians 12:4, the theology of different heavens were also explained in depth in 2 enoch that was also removed(almost included but wasn't) it actually quotes scriptures from jude that is in the bible too. There's many details that was removed that may have made some scriptures make more sense.

Sorry I couldn't be much help,

Denise

Thank you for this insight! I was aware about Jude quoting Enoch, and perhaps II Peter, but I never knew about that other gospel.

Thank you all for answering!
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G. Driggs

  • Guest
Re: "Soul Sleep"
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2011, 01:45:53 AM »


Thanks!!  :)


No prob. And thank you daywalker, you've been a real inspiration to me lately. I'm not just saying that either. You and ALL here at BT are very much appreciated.


Good questions Ian. :)
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: "Soul Sleep"
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2011, 06:49:42 AM »



Death is not physical. We die daily.

Life is not physical. We have the earnest of His Spirit in our hearts who is the Way the Truth and the Life.

The earnest of His Spirit in our hearts does not die, though we sleep.

Seeing as Jesus sees, is being awake.

Jesus is come in the flesh.

Jesus likens death to sleep.

The Scriptures tell us to wake up. Rom 13:11  This is necessary because you know the times-that it's time for you to wake up from sleep.

Arc
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Ian

  • Guest
Re: "Soul Sleep"
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2011, 07:20:24 PM »

Thank you all for the comments. While further researching the subject, I found... this artcle ***No Links Allowed***

Now I do not agree with what she says, as she seems to be ignoring context. For example...
Quote
 2.  Scripture teaches that the spirits of men are fully conscious after separation
                 from the body at death.
                 e.  They can feel pain.

                         Luke 16:23, 24
                         Revelation 20:10 ("torment" = Greek basanizo, meaning "to vex with
                         great pain" – as Matthew 8:29)

What does Rev 20:10 have to do with "separation from the body at death"?

Could something critique this for me?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2011, 08:23:03 PM by mharrell08 »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: "Soul Sleep"
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2011, 08:10:26 PM »


Hi Ian,

Luke 16:23  And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Concerning this verse in Luke, here is where Ray explains it.

http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html ----------------

And how could this man "literally" lift up his eyes in "hell" seeing that hell is the translation of the Greek word hades which means the UNSEEN or IMPERCEPTIBLE? To "see" one can’t be in the UNSEEN, nor can it be a place of NO perception. The parable says that he "died" and was entombed, but that he "lifts up his eyes" in hades. He can’t be literally dead and literally alive at the same time and in two different locations.

Hades is a Greek word (and is synonymous with Sheol in the Hebrew O.T.) and it has a meaning. The elements are "UN-PERCEIVED." It can be properly translated into English as "unseen" or "imperceptible." Now how can one "see" in the unseen?" It’s ridiculous. How can anyone have "perception" in the "imperceptible?" The dead can’t "see," It’s a parable.

There is no consciousness in [Heb: Sheol] or [Gk: Hades](Psa. 146:4)--none. "Sheol" and "Hades" are synonymous in Scripture.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote
What does Rev 20:10 have to do with "separation from the body at death"?

Rev 20:10  And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were . And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev. 20 is speaking of the the resurrection, when all will face judgement, even Satan, which will seem quite torturous to some.
 
Here is where Ray speaks about this.

http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html --------------------------------

Next I present a Scripture that many fundamentalists hate. I’ll bet if you attended a fundamentalist church, you never heard a sermon on this verse. We read that God has appointed a day (a period of time) in which He will "JUDGE" the whole world. Revelation 20:10-15 IS THAT DAY OF JUDGMENT! Now we know that those not found in the book of life will be put into FIRE, and they will be TORMENTED. This is certainly part of this judgment. But it is not literal fire. Literal fire burns up physical things and literal fire cannot harm spiritual things. So what does the fire do or accomplish? MUCH!

This judgment in Revelation 20 IS that worldwide judgment spoken of in many prophecies. But is the purpose of this worldwide judgment to torture people by burning their flesh in real fire for all eternity? Is that HOW God judges in "righteousness"? Absolutely not. We just read where God burns up our fleshly WORKS, and this is "tormenting" for sure. But God does not torture our flesh for all eternity. Don’t get me wrong, there will be severe chastisements on those who despise God and His Savior and His Gospel. But out of their ashes will come salvation. Here is another marvelous Scripture which answers what happens to sinning humanity when God JUDGES THE WORLD in righteousness.

"For he [GOD] bringeth down them that dwell on high; the lofty city, he layeth it low, HE LAYETH IT LOW, even to the ground, he bringeth it even to the dust" (Isa. 26:5)

Make no mistake, God will judge the wicked with great severity. However, ALWAYS FOR A BENEVOLENT PURPOSE:

"With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when Thy judgments are in the earth, THE INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isaiah 26:9)!!

There will come a time when those who only knew how to blaspheme the name of God, will come to LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS. They will not just "hear" of righteousness, no, they will actually "LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS"!

The whole book of Isaiah speaks of judgments on Israel and on the nations. But the end of all these judgments is SALVATION TO ALL. Notice Isa. 45:22-23,

"Look unto me, and BE YE SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness [as in, ‘For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth,’ I Tim. 2:3-4] , and shall not return, That unto me EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR" (See also: Phil. 2: 9-11 & I Cor. 12:3).

God’s words will NOT return empty or void. When God speaks, it will be done. When God wills, it will be done. When God desires, His desires WILL BE DONE:

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND, and I WILL DO ALL MY PLEASURE ... I have spoken it, I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS; I HAVE PURPOSED IT, I WILL ALSO DO IT" (Isa. 46:10-11).

Oh the blasphemy of those who teach that God’s most heartfelt desires WILL NOT COME TO PASS, but will utterly fail!!! Jesus Christ is not the potential Savior of the world; He IS THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD!!! HE WILL SAVE THE WORLD!!!

How many self-appointed, bible-thumping, doomsday, fire and brimstone, eternal torture in hell preachers believe these verses in Isaiah? Not one that I know of! Most Christians have never been taught the Scriptures that I am giving you. These things are despised by many who call themselves "Christian." And yet, God’s Word is FULL of such statements of God’s salvation to all.
--------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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daywalker

  • Guest
Re: "Soul Sleep"
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2011, 09:17:58 PM »

Thank you all for the comments. While further researching the subject, I found... this artcle ***No Links Allowed***

Now I do not agree with what she says, as she seems to be ignoring context. For example...
Quote
 2.  Scripture teaches that the spirits of men are fully conscious after separation
                 from the body at death.
                 e.  They can feel pain.

                         Luke 16:23, 24
                         Revelation 20:10 ("torment" = Greek basanizo, meaning "to vex with
                         great pain" – as Matthew 8:29)

What does Rev 20:10 have to do with "separation from the body at death"?

Could something critique this for me?


Absolutely nothing.

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Concordant)

Neither the Adversary, the wild beast, or the false prophet are beings that are separated from their bodies.


Luke 16:23-24 is part of a parable (Rich man and Lazarus). But don't try to convince Christians that parables are "fictional", because they're convinced that a finger dipped in water can actually cool your tongue if you're engulfed in fire ("send Lazarus that he should be dipping the tip of his finger in water and cooling my tongue, for I am pained in this flame"). Seriously...


Daywalker  8)
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Ian

  • Guest
Re: "Soul Sleep"
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2011, 02:16:05 AM »

Thank you all for the comments. While further researching the subject, I found... this artcle ***No Links Allowed***

Now I do not agree with what she says, as she seems to be ignoring context. For example...
Quote
 2.  Scripture teaches that the spirits of men are fully conscious after separation
                 from the body at death.
                 e.  They can feel pain.

                         Luke 16:23, 24
                         Revelation 20:10 ("torment" = Greek basanizo, meaning "to vex with
                         great pain" – as Matthew 8:29)

What does Rev 20:10 have to do with "separation from the body at death"?

Could something critique this for me?


Absolutely nothing.

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Concordant)

Neither the Adversary, the wild beast, or the false prophet are beings that are separated from their bodies.


Luke 16:23-24 is part of a parable (Rich man and Lazarus). But don't try to convince Christians that parables are "fictional", because they're convinced that a finger dipped in water can actually cool your tongue if you're engulfed in fire ("send Lazarus that he should be dipping the tip of his finger in water and cooling my tongue, for I am pained in this flame"). Seriously...


Daywalker  8)

It was a hypothetical question. I know that "neither the Adversary, the wild beast, or the false prophet are beings that are separated from their bodies."

The reason I ask is because it seems that she violently rips verses out of their contexts.

Thank you for responding!

Oh, when I wrote "Could something critique this for me?" I was alluding to the page as a whole, not the text.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 02:24:34 AM by Ian »
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: "Soul Sleep"
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2011, 01:23:48 PM »

Oh, when I wrote "Could something critique this for me?" I was alluding to the page as a whole, not the text.


Hello Ian,

I removed the link because one of our forum rules is not to post links to other teachings/preaching. This forum is not for critiquing other sites but to discuss what we learn from Bible Truths.


Hope you understand,

Marques
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Ian

  • Guest
Re: "Soul Sleep"
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2011, 01:25:35 AM »

More research... *sigh* I know in my heart and my mind that Ray is right, I just don't want to teach without being "sure".

While further searching, I found the account of Samuel and the Witch of Endor.   1 Samuel 28:3, 11-16, 19. Also the following verses Job 19:25-27, Isaiah 5:14-15. I'm not trying to argue, just searching for truth.

If taken at face value, this contradicts Psalms 6:5, etc. What are your takes on this verse?

Thank you very much. God bless you.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 02:06:53 AM by Ian »
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Akira329

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Re: "Soul Sleep"
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2011, 02:58:56 AM »

More research... *sigh* I know in my heart and my mind that Ray is right, I just don't want to teach without being "sure".

While further searching, I found the account of Samuel and the Witch of Endor.   1 Samuel 28:3, 11-16, 19. Also the following verses Job 19:25-27, Isaiah 5:14-15. I'm not trying to argue, just searching for truth.

If taken at face value, this contradicts Psalms 6:5, etc. What are your takes on this verse?

Thank you very much. God bless you.

I'm not exactly sure what your looking for Ian.
You've gotten really good answers!
What is it about those verses that contradict Psalms 6:5??

Antaiwan
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Kat

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Re: "Soul Sleep"
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2011, 11:42:52 AM »


Hi Ian,

Well you know that you can find false theories about everything, we have to come to a point where we have faith that what we have is what God inspired and is using to teach His Elect. Pray for faith so that you can accept and believe the Scriptures and let God teach you these truths.
Here are a couple of emails that will help with this thing about Saul spirit being brought back by a witch.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,124.0.html -------

Dear Anton:

Saul does not obey or trust God.

So he goes to a pagan inspired witch that are condemned in Israel.

The witch has a familiar spirit--a demon.

Saul asks the witch to call up Samuel's spirit--a pagan teaching.

God actually caused this opportunity to tell Saul his fate by the channel that Saul himself choose.

God revealed the fate of Saul through this witch.

Samuel was never there. Saul assumed that the "old man" had to be Samuel. It was not.

God be with you,
Ray


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=742.0 ----------------

Dear Peter:

Samuel was unconscious and DEAD during that whole Witch of Endor scenario.  Our "spirit" does not have consciousness upon death. No witch or demon has the power to bring a dead person back to life. God uses "LYING SPIRITS" to comune with evil people such as Saul (See I Kings 22:22-23 & II Chron. 18:22-23).

God be with you,

Ray

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Ian

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Re: "Soul Sleep"
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2011, 03:22:57 AM »

More research... *sigh* I know in my heart and my mind that Ray is right, I just don't want to teach without being "sure".

While further searching, I found the account of Samuel and the Witch of Endor.   1 Samuel 28:3, 11-16, 19. Also the following verses Job 19:25-27, Isaiah 5:14-15. I'm not trying to argue, just searching for truth.

If taken at face value, this contradicts Psalms 6:5, etc. What are your takes on this verse?

Thank you very much. God bless you.

I'm not exactly sure what your looking for Ian.
You've gotten really good answers!
What is it about those verses that contradict Psalms 6:5??

Antaiwan

If the account of Samuel and the Witch of Endor is to be taken at face value, this contradicts Psalms 6:5. I had not seen the email that Ray wrote regarding it.

I write in private, so I cannot really get my thoughts down on "paper" before being interrupted (by someone or some thing).

I apologize for not being very coherent. It is hard to clarify what I am trying to say because I am unable to articulate my thoughts. This is due to what I mentioned above.
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