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Author Topic: Adam and Eve  (Read 9340 times)

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DougE6

  • Guest
Re: Adam and Eve
« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2011, 02:22:09 PM »

Yes, God does drag us to Jesus. But that dragging process, does not mean we are not involved! Here is an analogy. If you get a bad diagnosis, that you had cancer, would you say "God the Father does everything. Therefore I will  not seek out doctors. I will not seek any medical attention.  I will not change my diet. I will not fight this with all that I know in my limited power and strength If God the Father wants to heal me, or if Jesus wants to, they are very good at what they do. They can heal me. In the meantime, I will sit on this couch and watch TV, until God the Father heals me. After all, He does it all. I don't need to lift a finger"  Is that what you would say? Somehow I don't see Ray acting with that attitude in his approach to His cancer. And God is really doing a great work in keeping him alive. But I bet Ray is really really trying his best. I don't like all this talk that implies we dont need to try our best. Just because God does the work, does not for one second, relieve us of our part to do our best with our whole heart, We are not to sit on the couch, and say "God the Father does it all. I am not going to do a thing. Not a thing to help others, to do good works, to struggle and pray for righteousness. Tp preach to others. To do the works of God" And if I am doing it imperfectly, as I do not see as clearly as Jesus did, while on the earth, God will help me see clearer and clearer, as I strive in all things to obey Him and His word.
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Adam and Eve
« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2011, 02:44:19 PM »

Oh Lord, not again...  ::)

Please guys, cease and desist with the whole 'do something/only God does something' debate. If I see this debate again, I will promptly remove it.
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Revilonivek

  • Guest
Re: Adam and Eve
« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2011, 05:21:03 PM »

Doug,

 :D Yeah, we may not have "free" will, but we do have a will. God controls the circumstances and gives us reasons on how we should deal with it. We just deal with it either wisely or the foolish way. That is why we are held accountable. Like if you have cancer, how will you react? That is how he gives you reasons and many paths on how to deal with it. You either do it the smart way or foolish way. Sometimes others's mistakes are used to teach others. Like that guy who was protesting for no helmet law but instead he died in an accident due to no helmet. It's all about cause and effect. With cancer,if God gives you a will and a reason to want to live longer. Of course this reason causes you to become active and fight this cancer no matter what it takes. If he wants you to go a certain way. He will not make it easy for you to wiggle out of it. He will keep you in it till he is satisfied with how things are. He has his reasons. It may not be just for you only but for others too. Purpose is to help you and others around you. Maybe God wants to see how we react under various suitations and how well we do it. I have not heard of anyone who has a great desire to live, not fight cancer at all.  That is how God directs our steps. It's cool. If you have cancer, will you do something or none at all. Of course you will fight. It's in our nature to want to live. Maybe the suffering itself is what it takes for people to grow closer to God and others than no suffering at all. 

 
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Adam and Eve
« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2011, 06:27:36 PM »


With God sovereign there is absolutely no wiggle room what so ever. God knows exactly what will happen down to the least detail. What is going on in our living out this life is not for God's benefit to see what we might do. It is always for our benefit, what happens is for our experience.

True we do have a will, but it's always caused to do whatever we do and the ultimate cause is God, because He has already planned it all out. Now of course we are involved, the causes lead us to do what we do willingly and voluntarily. Because we have a heart that is "exceedingly weak" it takes just a nudge (this world is fulled with things that nudge us in the wrong direction) for us to will and ultimately think, say or do sin.

all of us have to form a dark backdrop in this world, all of us have been deceived and went the way of the world.

Titus 3:3  For we ourselves also were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, slaving for various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.

It's the way of this world that we will experience this evil and with our exceedingly weak heart we are quite ready to oblige. That's why we are accountable.

This is from 'The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed' 15 - Part B.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html ---------------

The Scriptures have already concluded that man’s will is not free to do that which it cannot do. Yet should God intervene and cause this same person to repent and turn to God in obedience, how can this same person take credit for repenting and turning to God, seeing that it was ALL OF GOD? Yes, the human mind and will can will and can choose to obey God, but only when God causes it to do so.

Did Jesus obey His God and Father, without a cause?

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, [truly, truly—what Jesus is about to say is the Gospel Truth!] I say unto you, THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF…" (John 5:19).

"THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF"

Can we obey our Lord Jesus Christ, without a cause?

"I am the Vine, ye are the branches: He that abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit, for WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING" (John 15:5).

"WITHOUT ME YE [‘ye’ means ‘ALL of you’] CAN DO NOTHING"

I repeat:

"THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF"

"WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING"
v
God made the lemons and God changed the lemons into lemonade.

God is the Potter and we are the clay. God first made the clay in His hands "marred/ruined"—LEMONS, before "…He made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the Potter to make it"—LEMONADE (Jer. 18:4).

Therefore, "For as in Adam ALL DIE [the marred, ruined clay—lemons] even so in Christ shall ALL [it’s the same ‘all’ as ‘in Adam’—it’s the SAME CLAY {Adam means ‘clay’}--lemons] BE MADE ALIVE [‘another vessel, as seemed good to the Potter to make it’—LEMONADE]."

It is God Who makes both the lemons and the lemonade. God is in control of His creation from beginning to end:

"Having made known unto us the mystery of His will [God’s will is still a mystery to the world of Christendom], according to His good pleasure [‘For it is GOD which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure’—Phil. 2:13] which He has purposed in Himself [not in man’s fabled ‘free will’]: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in ONE, ALL things in Christ, both which are IN HEAVEN, and which are ON EARTH [that’s ALL the heavenly host and ALL humanity that has ever lived]; even in Him: In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance [in this age and this lifetime, ahead of the rest which must go through judgment first], being predestined according to the purpose of Him [not by the ‘maybe yes/maybe no’ uncertain shaky possibility of man’s supposed free will] Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:9-11).

It is GOD Who does the working of the clay. The clay does not determine its own destiny, that is the POTTER’S job:

"Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [we, the clay] say to Him that formed it [God, the Potter], Why have You made me thus? Has not the Potter power over the clay [and the clay’s powerless imagined ‘free will’], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour [lemonade], and another unto dishonour [lemons]" (Rom. 9:20-21).
v
You won’t find many statements in Scripture more profound than this one. "…you thought EVIL AGAINST ME; but GOD MEANT IT UNTO GOOD…" This is absolutely not a case of turning the lemons of men into the lemonade of God. It was GOD who made both the lemons and the lemonade.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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DougE6

  • Guest
Re: Adam and Eve
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2011, 07:51:16 PM »


If you think, that I think that trying my best means that I do not believe in the total sovereignity of God then I am being completely misunderstood. Of course there is no wiggle room in the total sovereignity of God.  Yet I will not use that doctrine, the total sovereignity of God, as an EXCUSE not to do my best and to strive and struggle and seek out God.  Obviously my zeal to seek Him and serve Him and become more and more holy is OF HIM! But when the traveler is beat up by thieves and left on the road I WILL NOT GO BY AS A PHARISEE AND SAY OH IT IS GODS WILL AND I WONT DO ANYTHING TO HELP> I see so much written about the sovereignity of God, who can possibly disagree?  yet so little on how much we are obeying, how we are being changed, doing good works, preaching the true gospel, giving of our substance...and I think some could use the total sovereignity of God as an EXCUSE not to try, not to work hard.  God Forbid, that I will ever do that. And I will seek the First resurrection with all my heart, and by this I mean to be with Jesus, and I will not have the attitude that "well, it is a lock, God has decided who is to receive that, and it is useless for me to try or to desire such" By the sovereignity of God obviously He has given me this attititude and he has given others their opposite attitude. I just want to point out that one can believe in the total sovereignity of God and still STRIVE to please Him, still give great effort, grow in your desire for holiness, and have all kinds of zeal without letting that doctrine become a stumbling block to actually DOING good works. That in the actuality, Jesus is doing through us anyway.
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Revilonivek

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Re: Adam and Eve
« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2011, 09:17:54 PM »


If you think, that I think that trying my best means that I do not believe in the total sovereignity of God then I am being completely misunderstood. Of course there is no wiggle room in the total sovereignity of God.  Yet I will not use that doctrine, the total sovereignity of God, as an EXCUSE not to do my best and to strive and struggle and seek out God.  Obviously my zeal to seek Him and serve Him and become more and more holy is OF HIM! But when the traveler is beat up by thieves and left on the road I WILL NOT GO BY AS A PHARISEE AND SAY OH IT IS GODS WILL AND I WONT DO ANYTHING TO HELP> I see so much written about the sovereignity of God, who can possibly disagree?  yet so little on how much we are obeying, how we are being changed, doing good works, preaching the true gospel, giving of our substance...and I think some could use the total sovereignity of God as an EXCUSE not to try, not to work hard.  God Forbid, that I will ever do that. And I will seek the First resurrection with all my heart, and by this I mean to be with Jesus, and I will not have the attitude that "well, it is a lock, God has decided who is to receive that, and it is useless for me to try or to desire such" By the sovereignity of God obviously He has given me this attititude and he has given others their opposite attitude. I just want to point out that one can believe in the total sovereignity of God and still STRIVE to please Him, still give great effort, grow in your desire for holiness, and have all kinds of zeal without letting that doctrine become a stumbling block to actually DOING good works. That in the actuality, Jesus is doing through us anyway.


Exactly. Either you do it or not, it's always for a reason. Never without. We won't do a certain something without a reason.  This is how God directs our steps. He gives us a reason. We will never do a certain thing without a reason. Hard to resist that, right? Hard to wiggle out of that too. If you don't want to do anything and know God is sovereign anyway. God always give you a reason to do something. You will be faced with reasons that challenges your morals. Hard not to do something in that situation, right? We just deal with reason the right way. like Kat said, we are held accountable for our willingness to sin. Hard to resist reason when it is tempting you in the face but hey, it's there for a reason.:)
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markn902

  • Guest
Re: Adam and Eve
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2011, 05:04:48 PM »

Hi everyone

This is from Marques first response

Quote
Childbirth, while extremely painful, brings a mother closer to her child than anyone can imagine. Something no man will ever understand. I don't think too many women would trade the bond they have with their child for anything in the world.

That made me think of how we are now being "born" in a spiritual sense and the 9 months of painful childbirth could be compared to our lives now.With the end being so much better than the beginning. How difficult life is now it will pale in comparison to the love that is coming. The same way a mother remembers how difficult a pregnancy/labor was but would never take it back for the love she feels for her child.So we are being "born again" in that sense (but it is a process not something that just happens one day at church)

That is what I thought of, or remembered, when reading this post anyway..

Have a good weekend  :)
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Phil3:10

  • Guest
Re: Adam and Eve
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2011, 04:06:25 PM »

Denise,
You did start a profound study for which I am most thankful. Much good was derived out of this topic and this is why this forum is so much more than a Sunday School lesson or some loud-mouthed preacher trying to indoctrinate his followers. DougE6 really brought the close I needed in stating the total sovereignty of GOD is all controlling but our pitiful effort to try and please HIM is needed. I find that my effort to please HIM often has beneficial results not only for me but to those whom I may help in some small way. GOD does it all but HE does tweek me sometimes to do what I feel are special things that without this special tweek I would not have done. GOD is the ultimate cause for everything and for this I am most thankful.
In HIM, Phil 3:10
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Revilonivek

  • Guest
Re: Adam and Eve
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2011, 05:41:02 PM »

Yeah, we learn alot through a hands on discussion. I learned a lot too.

I think this thing with Adam and Eve, is that men gained a conscience when they ate the fruit. What makes man different from all the rest of the creatures that God created: his conscience.  God purposely gave man a conscience by putting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden and have the serpent tempt them into eating the fruit.

Yes, they did disobey. But it was all a part of God’s plan so that they would become as one of God's. That’s exactly what He said: “Behold, man is become as one of us to know good and evil.”

just like us, and is able to consciously choose between what God establishes as right or wrong.

The whole plan from the beginning was to make man in God’s image, give him a conscience like God and make man one with God. This was even in Jesus’s prayer.

Joh 17:21  that they may be all one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us, that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

What do you think? Do u think it is conscience that we gained from eating the fruit? That could explain our convictions when we do something we know is right or wrong?

Thoughts?



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Phil3:10

  • Guest
Re: Adam and Eve
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2011, 02:19:59 PM »

Denise,
Something very profound happened as soon as Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree in the midst of the garden. Conscience is as good an explanation as I can think of. All of a sudden they were ashamed of their nakedness and the eyes of  both were opened. They tried to hide from the Voice of the LORD GOD and when GOD asked Adam if he had eaten of the tree he did what most man do, he tried to blame it all on the woman. The curse to both the serpent and to man follows. Then the ability to know good and evil with all of it's ramifications is established for all mankind.
Of course, GOD planned this entire process and I am not certain mankind will every fully understand HIS reasons. As GOD'S finest creation mankind was endowed with a superior brain, creative intelligence, reasoning ability, conscience, and emotions unlike any of GOD'S other creations. GOD'S creation of man is beyond the scope of my imagination as well as HIS continuing creation of the Universe. GOD, HIS greatness and the wonder of HIS totality is in no way understandable to me. I just trust HIM to be everything, the all in all, and know that HIS love and mercy endures forever.
GOD'S plan for mankind is beyond the scope of my frail intelligence. Your quote of John 17:21 is as good an explanation as I can find in my study of GOD and HIS WORD, JESUS THE CHRIST. I am so very thankful to GOD for the gift of my conscience and feel it does set me apart from the other creations of GOD. I thank GOD and HIS PERFECT SON for everything, both good and evil, knowing that all works good for them that love GOD, who are called according to HIS purpose. Romans 8:14-29 offers to me the very best explanation of GOD'S plan for man that I can find in the Bible. Just knowing we are the children of GOD, that all children must grow in both nurture and admonition,  and that nothing is able to separate us from the love of GOD which is in CHRIST JESUS our LORD is the best peace I have.

In HIM,
Phil3:10

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