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Author Topic: Paul The 13th Apostle?  (Read 5588 times)

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jong

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Paul The 13th Apostle?
« on: July 12, 2011, 05:18:33 AM »

Was Paul an apostle of Christ as he claimed to be in his writings? Even Rev 21:14 says there are only 12!

If not, should Paul's teachings be included in the bible at all? Can he a false apostle mentioned in Rev 2:2

The Bible-truths website have increased my knowledge tremendously but a lot of understanding is based on Paul's epistles & teachings. I am very confused, can anybody shed any light,

tks
jon
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Paul The 13th Apostle?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2011, 06:31:53 AM »

Hi, Jon.  Yes, Paul was an apostle of Christ as he claimed in his writings.  Whether he is the 12th or 13th (or some other number) is a more esoteric theological question I'm not qualified to answer, but I've no doubt somebody will be along to point you to clear teaching on the subject, and on the purpose of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

As such, Paul's wiritings are and ought to be included in the bible.

I hope you'll stick around and continue to increase in knowledge tremendously, just as Ray and the rest of us have benefited from increased understanding of the epistles and teachings of our brother Paul.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 06:42:36 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Paul The 13th Apostle?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2011, 08:06:11 AM »

Hi Jon

A very warm welcome to the BTF.

When you see the "appearance" of a contradiction or a duality, just know that it is as a door to a Truth of great importance for you to step through.

Examples of such doors are:

Free Will...

Suspended animation

I am the Alpha AND the Omega...~

Saying Alpha AND Omega is like saying I am a square circle!...Impossible!...~  yet there is deeper significance in what Jesus says even though to human assumption, it appears unworkable or impractical.

This has a bearing on what you have observed in the Revelations testimony of John, and with what Paul has asserted.

Some schools of thought want to make Paul the bad guy. Others defend his case.

Everyone can tell you what to believe. Only you may decide. Consider then the following to help formulate your belief.

From http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm The Sermon on the Mount is for You...Ray states

Right judgment produces righteousness.

If you're going to believe or “judge” Paul to be an impostor, then the fruit may yield suspicion, bitterness, disappointment and in a nut shell all the associations from the root of fear. Perfect Love casts out fear.

The Word of God is both a letter of the Word that KILLS and the Spirit of God, that quickens and is alive cutting between marrow and bone to bare the thoughts! ...

If you “judge” or can be at peace to accept that Paul is a Disciple, then the fruit is love, joy, peace and in a nut shell, all the associations from the root of Love.
 
There is no quandary with Paul being a Disciple of Christ and no difficulty, aversion or suspicion with anyone else being a Disciple of Christ. ~ 

Arc
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grapehound

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Re: Paul The 13th Apostle?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2011, 08:43:26 AM »

Welcome Home Jon,

Must Amen Arc on that very succinct answer.

Every Blessing

Grape x
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Kat

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Re: Paul The 13th Apostle?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2011, 09:57:22 AM »


Hi Jon,

Welcome to the forum  :)
Here are a few emails where Ray has spoken about Paul.

http://bible-truths.com/email14.htm#hitler ------------------------------------

Why should it seem a thing impossible that God Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth should be able to save a sinner?  Why does that boggle the mind?  Paul said that he was the greatest sinner that has ever lived (do we think he LIED?), and it took God about 3-4 SECONDS to save him. God saved him in one flash of light! Paul didn't WANT to be saved. Paul wanted to go to Damascus and PERSECUTE AND SLAUGHTER CHRISTIANS--that's what Paul wanted to do. But God had other plans for Saul/Paul. And so first He converted Paul. That took about 3-4 seconds. Then He told Paul what he ABSOLUTE WOULD DO, and Paul immediately began to DO THEM.

 
http://bible-truths.com/emails.html#PeterPaul ----------------------------------

When Paul and Barnabas came to Jerusalem it states that

"...they were received of the church, and of the apostles [one being PETER] AND ELDERS..." (Acts 15:4).

"And when there had been much disputing PETER rose up, and said to them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that THE GENTILES BY MY MOUTH SHOULD HEAR THE WORD OF THE GOSPEL, and believe ... Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and PAUL ... And after these had held their peace, JAMES answered ... Then it PLEASED THE APOSTLES [there was harmony between Peter, Paul, and James in this conference] and ELDERS, with the WHOLE CHURCH..." (Acts 15:713,22).

"It seemed GOOD unto US [the chief apostles including Peter and Paul] being assembled with ONE ACCORD [Perfect harmony here], to send chose men unto you with our BELOVED Barnabas and Paul [you might recall that it is PETER that calls his brother Paul, "BELOVED"], men who have hazarded their lives for the name of OUR Lord Jesus Christ [I don't see any animosity here]" (Acts 15:25-26).

"And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as OUR BELOVED PAUL [I don't see any friction or animosity here, do you?] also according to the WISDOM given unto him hath WRITTEN UNTO YOU; As also in all  his epistles [Peter had THEM ALL!], speaking in them of THESE THINGS [the SAME THINGS that Peter writes about]; in which are some things hard to be understood [but PETER UNDERSTOOD THEM, THAT'S FOR SURE!], which they that are UNLEARNED and UNSTABLE WREST [THESE are the people who don't "understand" Paul's epistles, the 'UNLEARNED and   UNSTABLE'!!]" (II Pet. 3:15-16).

Peter then tells them that,

"YE therefore, beloved, seeing YE KNOW THESE THINGS [the one's that Peter is writing to are not the "UNLEARNED AND UNSTABLE," NO, they 'KNOW THESE THINGS'] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the ERROR OF THE WICKED [they were the one's not understanding Paul's epistles, not Peter!], fall from your own steadfastness. But GROW IN GRACE AND THE KNOWLEDGE [sound like Paul does it?] of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" (II Pet. 3:17-18).

One does not extol the virtues of a man as Peter does and call him 'BELOVED BROTHER' when one is supposedly having a feud going one. The splits, and divisions, and animosity, etc., etc., is nowhere to be found between the circumcision and uncircumcision saints or between Peter and Paul, but is rather found in the carnal minds of those who write such unscriptural trash! Paul confronted Peter--ONCE. But years and years later we see that they were in perfect harmony (as I believe they were immediately after the confrontation in Gal. 2). 

Do we think that either Peter OR Paul where so carnal as to hold a lifetime GRUDGE?   Paul said, that we are not to even "let the sun go down upon our wrath" (Eph. 4:26), and you think they held a grudge ALL OF THEIR LIVES?   Peter called Paul "OUR BELOVED BROTHER." Does that sound like there was a division between them?  Beloved brother. What was Peter's teaching concerning the "brethren?"

"Finally, be ye all of ONE MIND, having compassion one of another, LOVE AS BRETHREN, be pitiful, be courteous; Not rendering evil for evil" (I Pet. 3:8).

Do we believe that Peter didn't even follow his own instructions?

"Honour all men, LOVE THE BROTHERHOOD" (I Pet. 2:17).

"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto UNFEIGNED LOVE OF THE BRETHREN, see that ye love one another with a pure heart FERVENTLY" (I Pet. 1:22).

And just why do you suppose, that of all people, it was Silas (Paul's traveling companion) who urged Peter to write his epistles in the first place?

It makes my blood boil when I read and hear of those who would teach others of NON-EXISTENT divisions and enmity between even the chief Apostles! HOW DARE any try to make Peter sound like some carnal-minded slob who held a lifetime of anger against Paul?


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4817.0.html -----------

Dear John: I don't mean to sound sarcastic in my answer, but you state that I have "helped

        you immensely."  I have about 2000 pages of material on our site, and I sometimes quote the

        Apostle Paul as often as twenty times on one page. And you are seriously asking me if I think

        that the Apostle Paul was an HERETIC?


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6319.0.html ----------

Dear Dante:  I seriously do not understand your questions.  Why would you question the Apostle Paul (maybe the greatest saint that has ever lived in the history of the world)?  Because lying deceiving Gnostics question something, is that reason for you to question it?  The First church of Satan questioned God. They say we should worship Satan. so should we worship Satan?  You asked whether it was God or Satan that talked to Muhammad?  I could ask, How do we know it was not Satan talking with Moses?  And where did Jesus say to "Not believe anyone who came after him?"  It is not up to you to prove every hypocrite and false prophet to be wrong. I immediately reject what they say. I marvel that anyone could believe that Paul was not the grandest of followers of Jesus. His teachings are marvelous beyond compare to anything.

        I really don't know what to tell you, Dante.  Do they have some evidence of Paul's evils deeds or teachings after his conversion?  I think not.

        God be with you,
        Ray

        PS   I wish that we had a lot more of Paul's epistles.


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Rene

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Re: Paul The 13th Apostle?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2011, 10:57:33 AM »


The Bible-truths website have increased my knowledge tremendously but a lot of understanding is based on Paul's epistles & teachings. I am very confused, can anybody shed any light,



Jon,

I also would like to welcome you to the forum, but I'm confused as to why you are so confused?

The Apostle Paul's inspired writings make up a huge portion of the New Testament, so why would the truths we are learning not be comprised of a large part of his teachings?  Maybe you need to explain more about your religious journey and maybe we will know more about where you are coming from.

We would love to help you clear up your confusion. :)

René
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mharrell08

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Re: Paul The 13th Apostle?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2011, 11:49:53 AM »

Was Paul an apostle of Christ as he claimed to be in his writings? Even Rev 21:14 says there are only 12!

If not, should Paul's teachings be included in the bible at all? Can he a false apostle mentioned in Rev 2:2


That's an assumption Jon. Revelation 21:14 does not say there are only 12 apostles.


Paul referred to himself as the least of all apostles, because of his past actions:

1 Cor 15:9  For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.


But Paul considered all the people he was used to convert to Christ as his sign of apostleship:

1 Cor 9:2  If I am not an apostle to others, yet doubtless I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord

2 Cor 12:12  Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds



Did not Jesus say you shall 'know them by their fruits'? And that one who is not against us, is for us?

Matt 7:14-15  Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits...

Luke 9:49-50  John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us



Hope this helps,

Marques
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Joel

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Re: Paul The 13th Apostle?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2011, 11:53:37 PM »

The definition of the word apostle--One sent on a mission. seems to fit the service that the Lord himself intended for Paul.

Acts 9:15-16
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel.
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

We can read the rest of Acts, and Paul's writings to know that the Lord meant what he said concerning him, and all things came true to the last detail.

Joel
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jong

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Re: Paul The 13th Apostle?
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2011, 08:16:57 AM »

Hi All,

Thanks for the warm welcome  :)

My own philosophy is to really understand what I believe, and to find out more about what I believe.
The teachings of Ray has so far allowed me to understand deeper the messages of the Good News & the glorious plans God has for each one of us.

Then I chanced upon the possibility of St. Paul being a false prophet and that is why I sought help from the seniors here. Maybe answers to the following questions might help clear up some doubts ;)

1. We are told to test whoever call themselves apostles.

Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

2. Paul condones/allows the eating foods sacrificed to idols in 1 Corinthians 8. Yet in Revelation, Jesus rebukes churches for eating foods sacrificed to idols.

Revelation 2:14 "But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.

Revelation 2:20 "Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols

3. Benjamite wolf prophecy

Genesis 49:1 And Jacob called his sons and said, "Gather together, that I may tell you what shall befall you in the last days:

Genesis 49:27 "Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; In the morning he shall devour the prey, And at night he shall divide the spoil."

Rom 11:1, Phil 3:5 ....Paul is of the tribe of Benjamin. Initially (in the morning), he started out murdering Christians , then later (in the night) dividing the church along Jew-Gentile lines.

Ezekiel 22:25-28 ...The "conspiracy of prophets" who "violates the Law," and who teach the people to "hide their eyes from the Sabbath," and to no longer discern clean food from impure food, etc. These wolves are associated with those who "have false visions" and "divine" lies in the Lord's name.

4. Is Paul, actually Apollonius?

Acts 21:38 "Are you not the Egyptian who some time ago stirred up a rebellion and led the four thousand assassins out into the wilderness?"

Either Paul went by the name of Apollonius or the Roman commander knew about  Apollonius the Egyptian false prophet  and  what  Apollonius looked like. Google and find out the many coincidences between the life & teachings of Apollonius & Paul.

IF (a very big IF) the teachings of Paul were excluded from the New Testament, would we still come to the same conclusions that we have all learnt under Ray?

Thank you all for any further insights,
Jon


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G. Driggs

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Re: Paul The 13th Apostle?
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2011, 09:45:40 AM »

Seems eating or not eating meat sacrificed to idols is a moot point.

1Co 8:4  In this matter, then, of eating food offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing (has no real existence) and that there is no God but one. [Deut. 6:4.]

Not sure if Paul was condoning the eating of meat sacrificed to idols, but maybe he was saying it does not matter except to those that might be weak in some way. Didn't Jesus say something similar?

Mar 7:15  There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:16  If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Eating or not eating, drinking or not drinking certain things is just another one of them traditions of the Babylonian Church. It wont make or break you. If you eat or dont eat thats fine.

1Co 8:8  Now food [itself] will not cause our acceptance by God nor commend us to Him. Eating [food offered to idols] gives us no advantage; neither do we come short or become any worse if we do not eat [it].

Here some really good info from Ray about the physical traditions of the Church, please read.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6310.0.html

HOW THE CHURCH PLAYS ‘RELIGION’

When I was in the Worldwide Church of God every year we celebrated Passover and we partook of ‘real’ unleavened bread and ‘real’ wine… not leavened bread and grape juice. 
Then we also, to out do all the other churches, we would line up all the chairs around the parameter of the hall.  Then we had plastic wash basins and warm water and a towel for every person.  Then one person would wash the person sitting down feet and they would dry off, get up and put their shoes on.  Then the one that had washed their’s would sit down and they would wash their feet.  And they would dry off and put their shoes back on.  We did this once a year. 
Why did we do that?  To fulfill the commandments, so that we could feel righteous and holy and better than others.  Did people do that everyday of their life?  NO.  Why?  Because they didn’t know what it meant.  Well they knew what it meant, but they didn’t think about it everyday.  Because well you only do it once a year, so I’ll think about it when it’s time to do it.

That is NOT what Jesus meant when He said we should wash one another’s feet. 
That is NOT what Jesus meant by partaking of His body and His blood either.  That one day out of the year, we eat a little wafer and drink a little grape juice.  That is not what He meant that is NOT keeping Passover or the Lord’s Supper.
Cutting off the foreskin of a man’s penis is NOT circumcision.  You say, ‘well it represents carnality and so on.’  Well what do women cut off?  Are there no carnal women?  What do they cut off and how do they live by this? 

I made a list of physical rituals that carnal-minded Christians like to do, according to their faith.  Well depending on which religion, but sooner or later everybody does some of this.  The physical letter of the law can, in fact, deceive you. 
Tithing - pseudo tithing
Religious pilgrimages
Circumcision
Holy Day observance
Clean and unclean foods
Prayer cloths
Foot-washing
Fasting
Alter calls
Water baptism
Making vows
Anointing oil
Burning incense
Doing penance
Speaking in gibberish
Lighting candles
Pictures
Icons
Idols
Holy water
Holy smoke
Confession
Last rights
Sign of the cross
Rosary beads
Wearing phylacteries
The Lord’s Supper
Sabbath keeping
New moons
Prayer wheels
Religious junk

TBN every month if you send them money they will send you a piece of religious trinketry.  This month it was a little plastic egg that you can open up the top half of it, like two little doors and there is a little tiny Joseph, Mary and a little baby inside there.  Isn’t that cute, that’s precious.  Every month they’ve been doing this, for some 30+ years, let’s see 30 x 12 that’s close to 400 now.  Can you imagine that somebody has 400 pieces of such religious junk.  Where do they put it all?  If you gave me 400 such pieces of trinketry junk, I mean it will cover the whole floor and all the tables in here.  It’s total nonsense. 
Why do they do that?  Why do they offer you a piece of junk if you send them $50 or $100 or $1000?  Why do they do that?  Because people like religious junk.  It makes them feel godly, religious, holy or something, you see. 
It’s physical, it’s tangible like;
Physical circumcision
Physical baptism
Physical communion
Physical fasting
Physical food and drink laws
Pseudo tithing
Physical prayer
Physical church and worship services
Physical Sabbath keeping
Like ALL physical rituals, it’s a shadow of better things…

Heb 10:1  For the law having a shadow of the good things to come,

They represent something better.  They are almost there to deceive those that are stubborn and will not obey God.  They point to something grand, to those who do understand


So then are all these things done away?  Should we cut them out of the Bible and throw them away, as though they were useless?  NO.  No because they serve a purpose. 

But here’s the thing,  we just read where the things of the law are the shadow of better things to come.  Not the actual image itself.  So we are to come out of the shadow!  When you come out of the shadow you will automatically come into the light.  Because if there were no light, there would be no shadow.  I mean you don’t come out of a shadow at midnight, because there is no light to cast a shadow.  When you come out of the shadow, you come into the light.

--------------------

As for Revelation and what Jesus says in it, Ray goes into great detail in many of his papers to show (using Scriptures) them to be parables and not literal.

Oh and welcome to the forum! :)

Peace,

G.Driggs



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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Paul The 13th Apostle?
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2011, 11:51:20 AM »

Beautifully expounded G.Driggs ~


Hi Jon ~ your concerns don't worry me about Paul.
 

One wrong or two wrongs don't make a right. Ray exposes what is wrong and brings it into the Light. That is not wrong ~ 
 

Any seeking to find a battle with the letter of the Word, shall find a war. Thirty thousand different denominations in Christiandom all profess to be the one that is right. The one contradicting the other are all doors to walk through to the Truth and not into membership of one contradiction opposing another.


Believe what you believe.


 As for me in my house, all are welcome  as those who carry peace in reflection of understanding the living Spirit of Christ within. Would you so judge me as being as Appollonius or Paul?


Christ is risen, you know that. He is risen from the earth. The clay earthen vessels of humankind including Mathew Mark, Luke and John and Paul and Appollonius and Jezebel, myself and all flesh of the earth...I am fully persuaded that Jesus Christ is lifted up.


You quote Revelations so I bid you find comfort and solstice, peace and sancturary to your search in the following:


Joh 12:32  and I, if I may be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself.'


Drawn to Christ, no man His medium, but Christ Himself in you, your Hope of Glory, Peace and Love.


Arc
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mharrell08

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Re: Paul The 13th Apostle?
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2011, 02:41:25 PM »

Jon, your comments regarding Paul have various flaws:

1. We are told to test whoever call themselves apostles.

Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

2. Paul condones/allows the eating foods sacrificed to idols in 1 Corinthians 8. Yet in Revelation, Jesus rebukes churches for eating foods sacrificed to idols.

Revelation 2:14 "But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.

Revelation 2:20 "Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols

I normally do not like to post entire chapters of scriptures, but you seem to be ignoring Paul's entire passage in order to prove your point from 1 sentence:

1 Cor 8:1-3  Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.

The first point Paul makes is that love is of much greater value than knowledge. Well, what does that have to do with eating of idols?


1 Cor 8:4-6 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

Paul tells the Corinthians that we (believers) know that an idol is meaningless, as there is one God: the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. So that's knowledge that we as believers have, but what was the point about love being greater in the previous passage?


1 Cor 7-8 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.

Paul says not everyone has this knowledge of the One True God, but rather, they eat offerings to idols with the 'consciousness' (belief) of that idol. And it is their conscience (belief) that is said to be weak & defiled, not from what they ate. He then notes, that regarding food, to eat or not to eat does not make us better or worse than them.

But going back to the first sentence in this passage (the one you believe 'proves' Paul condones eating of idol offerings), what was the point of stating love is greater than knowledge?

1 Cor 9-13 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak.  For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

Here is the whole point of this passage: Paul knows that an idol offering does not affect his relationship with God, since his consciousness (belief) is not of an idol but rather the One True God. But a brethren in the faith, who is not as strong in mind, may see the act of eating this same idol offering as offensive. And Paul says that love, which is greater than this knowledge, ought to be displayed for this fellow brethren over the knowledge that the act of eating means nothing.

Here are additional admonishments from Paul that tell the real picture of what he 'condones' from idol offerings:

1 Cor 10:14, 14-22  Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry...Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.

You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?


How does Paul 'condone' eating of idol offerings when he states 'I DO NOT want you to have fellowship' with demons and those who sacrifice to them?

1 Cor 10:27-33  If any of those who do not believe invites you to dinner, and you desire to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no question for conscience’ sake. But if anyone says to you, “This was offered to idols,” do not eat it for the sake of the one who told you, and for conscience’ sake; for “the earth is the LORD’s, and all its fullness.”

“Conscience,” I say, not your own, but that of the other.
[Paul is consistent: Love is greater than knowledge! - 1 Cor 8:1] For why is my liberty judged by another man’s conscience? But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks? Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.


Again, Paul says 'DO NOT EAT IT', and yet you claim Paul condones such actions.


3. Benjamite wolf prophecy

Genesis 49:1 And Jacob called his sons and said, "Gather together, that I may tell you what shall befall you in the last days:

Genesis 49:27 "Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; In the morning he shall devour the prey, And at night he shall divide the spoil."

Rom 11:1, Phil 3:5 ....Paul is of the tribe of Benjamin. Initially (in the morning), he started out murdering Christians , then later (in the night) dividing the church along Jew-Gentile lines.

Ezekiel 22:25-28 ...The "conspiracy of prophets" who "violates the Law," and who teach the people to "hide their eyes from the Sabbath," and to no longer discern clean food from impure food, etc. These wolves are associated with those who "have false visions" and "divine" lies in the Lord's name.

You have not proven anything!

Jacob called his sons to BLESS THEM, not pronounce a curse on any of them. To 'befall' someone means to meet or encounter, there is not a negative connotation with the word:

Gen 49:28  All these are the twelve tribes of Israel, and this is what their father [Jacob aka Israel] said to them when he blessed them. He blessed them, every one with the blessing appropriate to him

After the Lord severely judged the tribe of Benjamin [Judges 20], they became a pillar within the tribes of Israel. Benjamin (the tribe) would even eventually become a sort of 'right hand' of Judah (the tribe, also the lineage that produced Jesus Christ) as they were willing to fight against the other 10 tribes of Israel during a period of strife [1 Kings 12]. They along with Judah and the Levites helped restore the Israelites after their captivity.

If anything it would make perfect sense for Jesus (tribe of Judah) to choose Paul (tribe of Benjamin) to be his 'minister of flame' [Ps 104:4] and 'fight the good fight of faith' [1 Tim 6:12].


4. Is Paul, actually Apollonius?

Acts 21:38 "Are you not the Egyptian who some time ago stirred up a rebellion and led the four thousand assassins out into the wilderness?"

Either Paul went by the name of Apollonius or the Roman commander knew about  Apollonius the Egyptian false prophet  and  what  Apollonius looked like. Google and find out the many coincidences between the life & teachings of Apollonius & Paul.

WHAT???

No one even mentions 'Apollonius', only YOU! The Roman commander does not, Paul does not, and neither does any other scripture. How can you honestly ask did the Roman commander 'know about Apollonius or what he looked like'? He never mentioned him!

Here is the conversation between Paul and the Roman commander:

Acts 21:37-39  As Paul was about to be brought into the barracks, he said to the commander, “May I say something to you?” And he [the Roman Commander] said, “Do you know Greek? Then you are not the Egyptian who some time ago stirred up a revolt and led the four thousand men of the Assassins out into the wilderness?” But Paul said, “I am a Jew of Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no insignificant city; and I beg you, allow me to speak to the people.”

Once Paul spoke to the commander in his dialect, the commander noted how Paul could not be the Egyptian who led a revolt because he knew Greek. The commander ASKED Paul about this Egyptian, he did not claim that is who Paul was. Paul had to inform the commander who he was, where he was from, and knew the language in order to speak to the people.


Google and find out the many coincidences between the life & teachings of Apollonius & Paul.

Do you know how many coincidences exist between Jesus and other idols? Does that prove that these idols have 'some' truth to them? How strong is one's faith if it is tossed to and fro from coincidences?


IF (a very big IF) the teachings of Paul were excluded from the New Testament, would we still come to the same conclusions that we have all learnt under Ray?

Thank you all for any further insights,
Jon


Where do you think Paul got his teachings from? No other epistle quotes from the OT more than Paul, and the OT testifies of Jesus Christ [Lk 24:44]. Paul simply expounded upon God's Word which had been around for generations before Paul's birth.

There are only 2 places, throughout the entire Holy Scriptures, which distinctly testify of all mankind having their works tried by fire. Paul was the FIRST to state this truth ['each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work' - 1 Cor 3:13]. And who else provided the additional witness:

Rev 1:1-2, 20:12 & 15  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John...the dead were judged according to their works...And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Jesus Christ, through His servant John provides another witness to testify of this truth first spoken by Paul. Now, how could Paul know this? The only way Paul could know such a thing is if Jesus Christ told/taught him.

A false prophet is supposed to only see false visions, not speak the truth as Paul did. Paul saw and understood judgment long before most other converts, including the first 12 apostles.

This is why we must read and study, all the words...not just find one or two passages in an attempt to prove our point or pet theory. When we only want to find one or two passages to 'prove our point', it becomes an issue of pride & vanity.



Thanks,

Marques
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Paul The 13th Apostle?
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2011, 03:54:34 PM »



No Scripture says that if one Scripture or two are quoted, then the issue is one of vanity and pride. Ray often quotes one or two Scriptures in response to questions.


The Scriptures say no such thing either, that quoting many Scriptures will lead to edification! ~ :D


Arc
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mharrell08

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Re: Paul The 13th Apostle?
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2011, 04:09:32 PM »

No Scripture says that if one Scripture or two are quoted, then the issue is one of vanity and pride. Ray often quotes one or two Scriptures in response to questions.


Arcturus, you're missing the point and misquoting me. When one only wants to prove their point or pet belief, then their motivation and intentions are of pride & vanity. They have already made up their mind they are in the right and only want to find passages that vaguely or can be misinterpreted to agree. The church does this constantly with all their doctrines.
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Marky Mark

  • Guest
Re: Paul The 13th Apostle?
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2011, 04:12:44 PM »

Hello Jon and welcome.  :)


Quote
My own philosophy is to really understand what I believe, and to find out more about what I believe.


You can understand your own philosophy about what you believe or you can by the grace of God come to understand that it is only by the faith of Jesus Christ that we can come to what the truth of God really is.What you or I believe outside the word of God is not even relevant in the Masters eye.

1Co 15:10  But by the grace of God I am what I am:

Quote
The teachings of Ray has so far allowed me to understand deeper the messages of the Good News & the glorious plans God has for each one of us.


You say and believe that Ray is a teacher of the truths of God but then go on to question the validity of Paul's writings from which Ray teaches? It is the gospel of peace that brings about glad tidings for those whom have ears to hear the truth of the Spirit.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


Quote
Then I chanced upon the possibility of St. Paul being a false prophet

Who are we to believe,man or God?

Rom 3:4  God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;

The Word of God is just that,His Word. We must keep based in His Faith.

Col 1:23  If you keep yourselves safely based in the faith, not moved from the hope of the good news which came to you, and which was given to every living being under heaven; of which I, Paul, was made a servant.

According to God, this is who Paul is.
  
Tit 1:1  Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Act 13:2  As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
Act 13:3  And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.
Act 13:4  So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.
Act 13:5  And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.


Do we really believe that the words spoken of are true and profitable? If Paul is a false prophet then I would have to conclude that God is a liar and that His word means nothing. [I speak as a fool].

2Ti 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17  That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


continuing with Paul...

Act 9:26  And when Saul was come to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples: but they were all afraid of him, and believed not that he was a disciple.
Act 9:27  But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.
 Act 9:28  And he was with them coming in and going out at Jerusalem.
Act 9:29  And he spake boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians: but they went about to slay him.

Act 24:14  But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:


Rom 12:3  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.



To base ones Scriptural understanding on anything but Scripture is precisely what the evil one is counting on...

Hope this helps some.

Peace...Mark
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Paul The 13th Apostle?
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2011, 05:42:57 PM »

Jon, your comments regarding Paul have various flaws:

1. We are told to test whoever call themselves apostles.

Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

2. Paul condones/allows the eating foods sacrificed to idols in 1 Corinthians 8. Yet in Revelation, Jesus rebukes churches for eating foods sacrificed to idols.

Revelation 2:14 "But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality.

Revelation 2:20 "Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols

I normally do not like to post entire chapters of scriptures, but you seem to be ignoring Paul's entire passage in order to prove your point from 1 sentence:

1 Cor 8:1-3  Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him.

The first point Paul makes is that love is of much greater value than knowledge. Well, what does that have to do with eating of idols?


1 Cor 8:4-6 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

Paul tells the Corinthians that we (believers) know that an idol is meaningless, as there is one God: the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. So that's knowledge that we as believers have, but what was the point about love being greater in the previous passage?


1 Cor 7-8 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.

Paul says not everyone has this knowledge of the One True God, but rather, they eat offerings to idols with the 'consciousness' (belief) of that idol. And it is their conscience (belief) that is said to be weak & defiled, not from what they ate. He then notes, that regarding food, to eat or not to eat does not make us better or worse than them.

But going back to the first sentence in this passage (the one you believe 'proves' Paul condones eating of idol offerings), what was the point of stating love is greater than knowledge?

1 Cor 9-13 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak.  For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

Here is the whole point of this passage: Paul knows that an idol offering does not affect his relationship with God, since his consciousness (belief) is not of an idol but rather the One True God. But a brethren in the faith, who is not as strong in mind, may see the act of eating this same idol offering as offensive. And Paul says that love, which is greater than this knowledge, ought to be displayed for this fellow brethren over the knowledge that the act of eating means nothing.

Here are additional admonishments from Paul that tell the real picture of what he 'condones' from idol offerings:

1 Cor 10:14, 14-22  Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry...Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.

You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?


How does Paul 'condone' eating of idol offerings when he states 'I DO NOT want you to have fellowship' with demons and those who sacrifice to them?

1 Cor 10:27-33  If any of those who do not believe invites you to dinner, and you desire to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no question for conscience’ sake. But if anyone says to you, “This was offered to idols,” do not eat it for the sake of the one who told you, and for conscience’ sake; for “the earth is the LORD’s, and all its fullness.”

“Conscience,” I say, not your own, but that of the other.
[Paul is consistent: Love is greater than knowledge! - 1 Cor 8:1] For why is my liberty judged by another man’s conscience? But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks? Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.


Again, Paul says 'DO NOT EAT IT', and yet you claim Paul condones such actions.


3. Benjamite wolf prophecy

Genesis 49:1 And Jacob called his sons and said, "Gather together, that I may tell you what shall befall you in the last days:

Genesis 49:27 "Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; In the morning he shall devour the prey, And at night he shall divide the spoil."

Rom 11:1, Phil 3:5 ....Paul is of the tribe of Benjamin. Initially (in the morning), he started out murdering Christians , then later (in the night) dividing the church along Jew-Gentile lines.

Ezekiel 22:25-28 ...The "conspiracy of prophets" who "violates the Law," and who teach the people to "hide their eyes from the Sabbath," and to no longer discern clean food from impure food, etc. These wolves are associated with those who "have false visions" and "divine" lies in the Lord's name.

You have not proven anything!

Jacob called his sons to BLESS THEM, not pronounce a curse on any of them. To 'befall' someone means to meet or encounter, there is not a negative connotation with the word:

Gen 49:28  All these are the twelve tribes of Israel, and this is what their father [Jacob aka Israel] said to them when he blessed them. He blessed them, every one with the blessing appropriate to him

After the Lord severely judged the tribe of Benjamin [Judges 20], they became a pillar within the tribes of Israel. Benjamin (the tribe) would even eventually become a sort of 'right hand' of Judah (the tribe, also the lineage that produced Jesus Christ) as they were willing to fight against the other 10 tribes of Israel during a period of strife [1 Kings 12]. They along with Judah and the Levites helped restore the Israelites after their captivity.

If anything it would make perfect sense for Jesus (tribe of Judah) to choose Paul (tribe of Benjamin) to be his 'minister of flame' [Ps 104:4] and 'fight the good fight of faith' [1 Tim 6:12].


4. Is Paul, actually Apollonius?

Acts 21:38 "Are you not the Egyptian who some time ago stirred up a rebellion and led the four thousand assassins out into the wilderness?"

Either Paul went by the name of Apollonius or the Roman commander knew about  Apollonius the Egyptian false prophet  and  what  Apollonius looked like. Google and find out the many coincidences between the life & teachings of Apollonius & Paul.

WHAT???

No one even mentions 'Apollonius', only YOU! The Roman commander does not, Paul does not, and neither does any other scripture. How can you honestly ask did the Roman commander 'know about Apollonius or what he looked like'? He never mentioned him!

Here is the conversation between Paul and the Roman commander:

Acts 21:37-39  As Paul was about to be brought into the barracks, he said to the commander, “May I say something to you?” And he [the Roman Commander] said, “Do you know Greek? Then you are not the Egyptian who some time ago stirred up a revolt and led the four thousand men of the Assassins out into the wilderness?” But Paul said, “I am a Jew of Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no insignificant city; and I beg you, allow me to speak to the people.”

Once Paul spoke to the commander in his dialect, the commander noted how Paul could not be the Egyptian who led a revolt because he knew Greek. The commander ASKED Paul about this Egyptian, he did not claim that is who Paul was. Paul had to inform the commander who he was, where he was from, and knew the language in order to speak to the people.


Google and find out the many coincidences between the life & teachings of Apollonius & Paul.

Do you know how many coincidences exist between Jesus and other idols? Does that prove that these idols have 'some' truth to them? How strong is one's faith if it is tossed to and fro from coincidences?


IF (a very big IF) the teachings of Paul were excluded from the New Testament, would we still come to the same conclusions that we have all learnt under Ray?

Thank you all for any further insights,
Jon


Where do you think Paul got his teachings from? No other epistle quotes from the OT more than Paul, and the OT testifies of Jesus Christ [Lk 24:44]. Paul simply expounded upon God's Word which had been around for generations before Paul's birth.

There are only 2 places, throughout the entire Holy Scriptures, which distinctly testify of all mankind having their works tried by fire. Paul was the FIRST to state this truth ['each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work' - 1 Cor 3:13]. And who else provided the additional witness:

Rev 1:1-2, 20:12 & 15  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John...the dead were judged according to their works...And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Jesus Christ, through His servant John provides another witness to testify of this truth first spoken by Paul. Now, how could Paul know this? The only way Paul could know such a thing is if Jesus Christ told/taught him.

A false prophet is supposed to only see false visions, not speak the truth as Paul did. Paul saw and understood judgment long before most other converts, including the first 12 apostles.

This is why we must read and study, all the words...not just find one or two passages in an attempt to prove our point or pet theory. When we only want to find one or two passages to 'prove our point', it becomes an issue of pride & vanity.



Thanks,

Marques

Powerful stuff Marques. Thank you, that was very edifying for me! :)

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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: Paul The 13th Apostle?
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2011, 07:16:29 PM »



Jon, you have received some very worthwhile edifying Scriptures to ponder and reflect upon via our brothers. ~

Marques ~ Your statement that I misquoted you, is false. I did not quote you. You clarified your perception in your second statement that aired your opinion that I had missed your point and falsley stated that I mis-quoted you, of which I did neither. Your first and second statements are different.

I find no problem with your response in the Scriptures to Jon. In fact, the Scriptures are perfect!
 
Arcturus

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Akira329

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Re: Paul The 13th Apostle?
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2011, 08:57:58 PM »

Quote
There are only 2 places, throughout the entire Holy Scriptures, which distinctly testify of all mankind having their works tried by fire. Paul was the FIRST to state this truth ['each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work' - 1 Cor 3:13]. And who else provided the additional witness:

Rev 1:1-2, 20:12 & 15  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John...the dead were judged according to their works...And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


Strongest witness Jon, believe it!!
Using scriptures to conform to your point of view is never the way to go.
I hope you have been helped!

Antaiwan
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
-Albert Einstein
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus

jong

  • Guest
Re: Paul The 13th Apostle?
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2011, 01:39:41 PM »

Dear All,

Thank you for your great help in clearing any doubts I had.

Jon
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