> General Discussions
Jesus and the Father in the OT
G. Driggs:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on July 22, 2011, 08:49:27 AM ---
Is it possible that whenever God is referenced in the Old Testament, it is speaking of Jesus AND The Father? Even when the translators place singular nouns, could the word 'God' be referencing the 'household of God' [Eph 2:19], instead of One singular Entity?
Here is a statement from Jesus that got me thinking:
John 5:17-23 Yet Jesus answers them, "My Father is working hitherto, and I am working." Therefore, then, the Jews sought the more to kill Him, for He not only annulled the sabbath, but said His own Father also is God, making Himself equal to God.
Jesus, then, answers and said to them, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, The Son can not be doing anything of Himself if it is not what He should be observing the Father doing, for whatever He may be doing, this the Son also is doing likewise. For the Father is fond of the Son and is showing Him all that He is doing. "And greater works than these shall He be showing Him, that you may be marveling.
For even as the Father is rousing the dead and vivifying, thus the Son also is vivifying whom He will. For neither is the Father judging anyone, but has given all judging to the Son,
that all may be honoring the Son, according as they are honoring the Father. He who is not honoring the Son is not honoring the Father Who sends Him.. [CLV]
"My Father is working and I am working"..."Whatever the Father is doing, the Son is doing likewise"..."The Father is vivifying (giving life), thus the Son is vivifying (also giving life)". They seems to be doing everything TOGETHER. Perhaps this is true in the OT as well?
Marques
--- End quote ---
Makes sense to me. If the Son and Father were working together in the New Testament, and since God does not change, maybe they were working together in the Old Testament? How can we separate them even when the translators use singular nouns? It's like, if you see Jesus you see the Father. I dunno, just thinking out loud.
I know you know God practices what He preaches, and God inspired Paul to write.....
Php 2:1 Is there any encouragement from belonging to Christ? Any comfort from His love? Any fellowship together in the Spirit? Are your hearts tender and compassionate?
Php 2:2 Then make me truly happy by agreeing wholeheartedly with each other, loving one another, and working together with one mind and purpose.
Interesting topic, was thinking about it yesterday.
G.Driggs
Duane:
Aen't we baptized "into the body of Christ"?
John 14:6 "In my father's house are many mansions".
Mansions, I learned on B-T, are not buildings, but rather our spiritual heavenly bodies--as opposed to our present "earthly tents".
So I guess we are all one spiritual body "in Christ/God".
Beautiful, ain't it?
Kat:
Here is more interesting sections from "Who and What is Jesus? And Who is the Father?'
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg38213.html -------------------
Now when you go thought the OT, you read about ‘God’ and you read about ‘the Lord.’ We are going to find out who this ‘God’ and who this ‘Lord’ is, or is it the same one or who in the world is it talking about? Because if God is God and Jesus is God and all through the Bible we read about God, well which one is it talking about? What do we know about the Father - God? If no man ever saw Him and no man ever heard His voice. Show me something in here, that God said it. Because the second it was said, it can’t be God, because nobody ever heard His voice.
[4] John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God...
Actually & literally this verse says, "God was the Word" (Concordant).
John 1:1-3 …and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by HIM (the Word) and without Him was not anything made that was made.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelled among us, the only begotten of the Father?"
v
“For though there be that are called gods (theos is plural), whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many; But to us there is but ONE GOD, the Father, OF Whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ BY Whom are all things, and we by Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).
Everything, “all things” are out 'of ' God. The word "of" in this verse is ek ex and it means--origin, from, out of, like exist (to get out of, to exist). Here is the Concordant Translation "there is One God, the Father, OUT OF WHOM ALL IS." If "all things are out of God," then certainly that includes Jesus. Where is Jesus Christ 'from'? Is He some 'thing'? He is the grandest thing of all. “All things,” are ek ex from the Father. So where did Christ come from? It says “all things” are of or out of (ek ex) God. There is only one God, the Father, and we in Him. “and one Lord Jesus Christ BY Whom” that means through or the channel of. There it is!
Everything, all knowledge, the plan of the universe is out of God. But then it is channeled through Jesus Christ. Why? He’s the Spokesman, and the creator, and the Savior, and the example to humanity. Because God can’t come down and face us, face to face. Christ in His glory, in the OT, you couldn’t face Him either, it would have blown you away. But He emptied Himself. Christ talked about "My Father, your Father; My God, your God." (John 20:17)
So everything there is, is out of God and then it is through or by Jesus Christ that He channeled everything that there is.
v
This one might blow you away. How could God give birth, to a God? I guess you would say ‘a’ God, He is His Son, ‘a’ Son, ‘a’ God. How do you give birth to a God?
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him.
Now we have always heard, that we know nobody has ever seen God the Father, heard His voice, seen His shape ever. The only begotten Son, He is the One who reveals who the Father is, right. The Concordant translates that “unfolds Him.” You know, unfolds - unravels who and what the Father is to humanity. Because the first part said, nobody has ever seen God. But here is the point I want to draw attention to, “the only Begotten Son,” Son is not in some manuscripts. The Greek "Theos" [God] is in the manuscripts.
Let me give you John 1:18 the Concordant version and some others.
a. "God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten GOD Who is in the bosom of the Father, He unfolds Him" (Concordant Literal Version)
b. "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, Who is at the Father’s side, has made Him known" (New International Version).
c. "the only begotten Son, Who is God and close to the Father’s heart" (The New Testament in the Language of Today By William Beck).
d. "No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son Who is close to the Father’s heart" (New Revised Standard Version).
e. "No one has seen God at any time: An Only-Begotten God, The One existing in the bosom of the Father, He has interpreted Him" (Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible). Etc.
How about that. The only begotten God. Jesus Christ the only begotten God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Marky Mark:
--- Quote ---Aen't we baptized "into the body of Christ"?
John 14:6 "In my father's house are many mansions".
Mansions, I learned on B-T, are not buildings, but rather our spiritual heavenly bodies--as opposed to our present "earthly tents".So I guess we are all one spiritual body "in Christ/God".
Beautiful, ain't it?
--- End quote ---
Hello Duane. Hope you don't mind, but I did a little research on the word 'mansion' and came up with this.
The Greek word translated mansion is the word "mone."
G3438μονή
monē
mon-ay'
From G3306; a staying, that is, residence (the act or the place): - abode, mansion.
It appears twice in the New Testament and both are in this same fourteenth chapter of John.
G3438μονή
monē
Total KJV Occurrences: 2
abode, 1
Joh_14:23
mansions, 1
Joh_14:2
Here are those two verses:
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
The second use, verse 23, explains the meaning of the word. It simply means an abode, or a place of residence. God's "house" is a "house" of "many abodes."
Scripture makes it clear that the place of God's residence [mansion;abode] is not in temples made with hands,but rather, He lives within His people. That is His temple.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
We are God's temple, He has His 'mansion' [residence;abode] within us.
Hope this helps some.
Peace...Mark
Akira329:
The implications of this study is to redefined what the term "God" truely means. Also to understand the dynamics of the relationship between the Father and Son and the elect(who will be in this family).
A Father and Son with adopted sons and daughters awaiting to be born in the family to become true sons and daughters.
Its all about family yall!! ;D
Antaiwan
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