Jesus and the Father in the OT

[mharrell08]

Excerpt from March 2011 bible study 'Is Jesus God' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.msg113153.html#msg113153):

DOES GOD TALK TO HIMSELF?

The first time that the word God appears in the Scripture, is the Hebrew word Elohim. It's a plural word, it's a plural of the word El, the EloHIM makes it plural. It answers somewhat, but certainly not exactly to our old English word God in the singular, just God.

In Genesis 1:26 we read Elohim, which is a plural, here Elohim is speaking. In Genesis 1:1 it just says, "in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth," but here in Genesis 1;

Gen 1:26  And God (Elohim) SAID (He's speaking), Let US make man in OUR image...

Gen 3:22  ...Behold, the man is become as one of US...

Grammatically that is correct the "Us" and the "Our" is in the Hebrew. They didn't just add that, it's in there, okay.

Doesn't the Bible tell us that God is one being, one individual, one person? How can one person say "let Us" and "Our?" How is that possible? Well no, it actually doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible, that is an assumption. But again it is not the scope of this paper to go into all of that.

But in Deuteronomy 6 we read what is called the Shema, which states;

Deu 6:4  Hear, O Israel: The Lord (Yahweh) (is) our God...

It can read, "The Lord is our God."

v. 4 ... is one (echad, which means united) Lord:

So the Lord God is one Lord.

I'm presently reading a book called 'Christ Was No Trinitarian,' a big thick book. The author, no less than, 50-100 times in that book says that God is one individual person, God is a person... God is one person... God a person... over and over and over. I counted 50-100 times and I haven't finished the book.

Now we just read it, does anybody see in there, Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one person? I don't see that. It's one Lord, one Yahweh. So it doesn't say one person. Did Jesus say, I and My Father are one person? No.

Did God tell Adam, therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one person? (Gen 2:24) No.

Did Jesus Christ say, I and My Father are one person? (John 10:30) No.

But here is what the Bible does say. In Genesis 11, this is the people speaking.

Gen 11:4  And they said, Go to, let US build US a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let US make US a name...

Everybody knows what that means, "us," right? There is a whole bunch of people saying that, "let us." Everyone understood the pronoun 'us' and what it stands for.

Gen 11:6  And the Lord said, Behold, the PEOPLE (multiple people, hundreds of thousands of people) is ONE...

Singular, all these people, "is one," Hebrew 'echad,' meaning unified or one.

v. 6 ...and they have all one language.

The next Lord, which is translated from Yahweh, this is not God Elohim. Now pay strict attention here. I thought if anybody has ever caught this, I've never heard of anybody catch this.

Gen 11:6  And the LORD (Yahweh, not Elohim) said...
v. 7   Go to, let US...

Now we have Yahweh saying "let Us." So what is going on?

I'll just say here the fact that God in the Old Testament most often uses the singular pronoun, He or Me or Mine, does not negate the fact that at other places it does use the plural.

Yet the author of this book I'm reading says, 'but the majority rules. It says more times singular, so therefore we throw out...' No we don't throw out anything in the Bible. No we don't. Seems to me Jesus had something to say about throwing out things. We don't throw these plural pronouns out.  Yahweh said "let Us," it should be there.


Is it possible that whenever God is referenced in the Old Testament, it is speaking of Jesus AND The Father? Even when the translators place singular nouns, could the word 'God' be referencing the 'household of God' [Eph 2:19], instead of One singular Entity?

Here is a statement from Jesus that got me thinking:

John 5:17-23  Yet Jesus answers them, "My Father is working hitherto, and I am working." Therefore, then, the Jews sought the more to kill Him, for He not only annulled the sabbath, but said His own Father also is God, making Himself equal to God.

Jesus, then, answers and said to them, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, The Son can not be doing anything of Himself if it is not what He should be observing the Father doing, for whatever He may be doing, this the Son also is doing likewise. For the Father is fond of the Son and is showing Him all that He is doing. "And greater works than these shall He be showing Him, that you may be marveling.

For even as the Father is rousing the dead and vivifying, thus the Son also is vivifying whom He will. For neither is the Father judging anyone, but has given all judging to the Son,
that all may be honoring the Son, according as they are honoring the Father. He who is not honoring the Son is not honoring the Father Who sends Him.. [CLV]

"My Father is working and I am working"..."Whatever the Father is doing, the Son is doing likewise"..."The Father is vivifying (giving life), thus the Son is vivifying (also giving life)". They seems to be doing everything TOGETHER. Perhaps this is true in the OT as well?


Marques

[Kat]

Hi Marques,

I have been curious about what Ray brought out in that Bible study as well, here are a few other places I have found that Ray has commented on this subject.

Here is the email from just back in May, shortly after that Bible study.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13157.0.html --------------------

All of the Scriptures must agree or we are not understanding or teaching properly.  I have said for many years that "Jesus IS GOD" (see pp 22-23 of my article "God is NOT a Trinity.)  But if Jesus IS God and His Father IS God don't we then have TWO GODS?  There is ONLY ONE GOD!  Yes, this does appear to be an unsolvable enigma, but it is not unsolvable. 

I have said and taught further through the years that not only is Jesus God, but He is the ONLY GOD that we will every truly know in this life.  And why do I say that?  Well for one thing, that IS what the Scriptures teach:  "And this IS life eternal [eonian--'And this is the Aionian Life..."--Emphatic Diaglott." ], that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom Thou has sent" (John 17:3).  Yes, it will take "aions/eons" to come to know God the Father.  It won't happen in this life. So what is the purpose of us receiving eonian life?  To come to "...know Thee the only true God..."

I am receiving emails from some who are trying to "beat me to the punch" so to speak, in revealing just Who and/or What is our God.  I have neither the time nor the inclination to go through all of these emails to critique all these speculations, but I am sure there will be some who will attempt to to get their teaching on the Forum before I do.  I encourage study and research, however, let's not be guilty of doing it for the sake of vanity. 

And this is not to say that some have some truthful insight into this subject, but there is so much
more to this teaching that just solving the riddle of how the Father and Son can both be God
if..... I say IF they are separate Beings with separate personalities.

"Hear O Israel, the LORD thy God is ONE LORD" (Deut. 6:4).

"I and My Father ARE ONE" (John 10:30).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word [singular] WAS GOD" (John 1:1).

"I am the LORD, and there is non else, there is NO GOD BESIDE ME" (Isa. 45:5--"none
   else" ver. 14;  "none else" ver. 18; "none beside Me" ver. 21;  "I am God, there is none else"
   ver. 22;  "I am God, there is none like Me," Isa. 46:9;  "I am and there is none else beside
   Me," Isa. 47:.

"There is none other God, BUT ONE...But to us there is BUT ONE GOD" (I Cor. 8:4 & 6).

"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, 'Hear, O Israel; The Lord
our God is ONE LORD" (Mark. 12:29).

As to how many "Gods" there are, there is no argument!  There is but ONE GOD!  I have now given you part of the answer, but there is much to follow.  We know what the Scripture says, but how is it possible for two to be one God? There is an answer, but I would ask that you reserve sending me either questions or outlines of your own personal studies until after I have an opportunity to publish my research.
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This is from the conference notes "Who and What is God?'


http://bible-truths.com/audio/notes.htm -----------------------------------

" Hear O Israel the Yehwah our Elohim is ONE Yehwah" (Deut. 6:14)

"The Yahweh your Elohim, He is Elohim, the faithful El which keeps covenant and mercy with them that love Him and keep His commandments" (Deut. 7:9).

"For the Yehwah your Elohim is Elohim of Elohim and Adon Adon of Adon Adon a great El"(Deut. 10:17)

"I am the Yahweh, and there is none else, there is NO ELOHIM beside Me" (Isa. 45:5 & 6).

Notice that there is "NO ELOHIM except Yahweh." Then where does Jesus' Father come in?
We know that there is a "God the Father," for Jesus Himself spoke of "God the Father" (John 6:27). And we have this: "God the Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom. 1:7). They are even contrasted "not as I will, but as THOU" (Matt. 26:39).

ANSWER: God the Father and Jehovah [Jesus] Elohim, ARE ONE GOD. "I and My Father are ONE" (John 10:30). "One" what?  O-N-E  G-O-D!

"THE Lord [Jehovah]" of Psalm 110:1 becomes GOD THE FATHER in Heb. 1:1 & 13. The "God" Who spoke to the fathers was "the LORD THY GOD [Jehovah your Elohim]" Who was Jesus, was also GOD THE FATHER. How so? They are ONE.

"The God OF OUR FATHERS raised up JESUS, Whom ye slew and hanged on a tree" (Acts 5:30).

But in the Old Testament, Jesus Christ was Jehovah Elohim to the fathers.

THEY ARE ONE: "I and My Father ARE ONE"

Jesus was "Emmanuel" which means "God with us.." (Mat. 1:23).

"he that has seen Me HAS SEEN THE FATHER, I am in the Father and the Father in Me, Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me." (John 14:9-11).

Jesus has taught us that when TWO are in spiritual harmony, THEY ARE REALLY ONE (Matt. 19:5)
v
"There is ONE GOD" (I Cor.8:5); "God is SPIRIT" (John 6:24);

"by ONE SPIRIT baptized into one body" (I Co. 12:13);

"But he that is joined unto the Lord IS ONE SPIRIT" (I Cor. 6:17);

"I and My Father are ONE" (John 10:30)

"There is ONE BODY, and ONE SPIRIT, even as ye are called in ONE HOPE, of your calling; ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, ONE GOD AND FATHER OF ALL, Who is ABOVE ALL, and THROUGH ALL, and IN YOU ALL" (Eph. 4:4-6).
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Rene]

Hi Marques,

Funny you should bring this subject up, because Kathy and I have been discussing this subject all week!

As Kathy brought out points from the email reply to Gina from Ray, I especially took notice of these observations by Ray:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13157.0.html

Who is the "one God" of Whom he speaks? He answers: "the FATHER," followed
by a description of the Father's role in the universe, but if we take out the description of His role we loose nothing, as the thought is the same only shortened: "to us there is one God, THE FATHER. But Paul doesn't end his statement with a period. There is more to follow. He also speaks of "one Lord Jesus Christ" and a description of His role in the universe. Okay, let's leave out ALL the descriptive words describing both of Their roles, and we have this:

"...to us...ONE GOD: the Father...AND...Jesus."

I am not suggesting that this is the way to study all Scripture, by taking out
words, but I am trying to draw attention to the most important words.

Jesus said: "I [Jesus] and My Father are one" (John 10:30). Who is the
"one" in Jesus's statement? The Father? NO--"the Father AND Jesus."
Wow. Isn't that also what Paul really says in I Cor. 8:6?


Notice, if a colon is used in place of a comma, it really changes the meaning of this statement.  Our God is the Father AND Jesus!  

René

[John from Kentucky]

Hi Everyone,

Great, great post.  I have been thinking of little else since Ray brought up this topic of the Oneness and the True Nature of God in his most recent writings.

Wow!  Double Wow (Wow, Wow)!  The implications of what Ray is saying are most profound.  A true game changer.  Ray said that this new understanding might be the most important thing ever.  To truly understand God will change everything since all comes from God.  To understand God is to understand All.

Since Ray asked us not to speculate until his complete studies are finished, I won't add anything to the great thoughts that you all have posted above.  But my private thoughts are going off the charts.  Truly the Babylonian Mystery Religion doesn't have a clue---not now, nor for the past two thousand years---and before.

I was having some trouble knowing Who to pray to, the Father or Jesus---knowing that there is One God, makes it easier.

If Jesus sits in the Father's throne, and we will sit in Jesus' throne, doesn't that mean we all---Father, Jesus, and the rest of us---will be truly One?  One God, One Body, Many Parts?  Many Rooms, One Mansion?  I said I wouldn't speculate so I better stifle.    One Diamond cut with Many Facets--More Light?  I need to strangle myself to shut up.  

[GaryK]

I was having some trouble knowing Who to pray to, the Father or Jesus---knowing that there is One God, makes it easier.

Bless you John for bringing something out in the open that I've had trouble with myself......but just wouldn't admit it publicly.  So much so that I've found myself too many times just not praying at all for fear of insulting one or the other.        

If Jesus sits in the Father's throne, and we will sit in Jesus' throne, doesn't that mean we all---Father, Jesus, and the rest of us---will be truly One?  One God, One Body, Many Parts?  Many Rooms, One Mansion?  I said I wouldn't speculate so I better stifle.    One Diamond cut with Many Facets--More Light?  I need to strangle myself to shut up.  

Now that's an interesting view through the prism John.   


I, too, feel the need for this deep subject.   I wish the hours I've spent thinking on it could amount to something and make it an offering here.    It wouldn't.   To attempt to wrap one's mind about this subject, at least for me, lasts only for.....maybe.... 5 minutes and then the brain begins to melt.

Good subject Marques (and all).

gk

[G. Driggs]

Is it possible that whenever God is referenced in the Old Testament, it is speaking of Jesus AND The Father? Even when the translators place singular nouns, could the word 'God' be referencing the 'household of God' [Eph 2:19], instead of One singular Entity?

Here is a statement from Jesus that got me thinking:

John 5:17-23  Yet Jesus answers them, "My Father is working hitherto, and I am working." Therefore, then, the Jews sought the more to kill Him, for He not only annulled the sabbath, but said His own Father also is God, making Himself equal to God.

Jesus, then, answers and said to them, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, The Son can not be doing anything of Himself if it is not what He should be observing the Father doing, for whatever He may be doing, this the Son also is doing likewise. For the Father is fond of the Son and is showing Him all that He is doing. "And greater works than these shall He be showing Him, that you may be marveling.

For even as the Father is rousing the dead and vivifying, thus the Son also is vivifying whom He will. For neither is the Father judging anyone, but has given all judging to the Son,
that all may be honoring the Son, according as they are honoring the Father. He who is not honoring the Son is not honoring the Father Who sends Him.. [CLV]

"My Father is working and I am working"..."Whatever the Father is doing, the Son is doing likewise"..."The Father is vivifying (giving life), thus the Son is vivifying (also giving life)". They seems to be doing everything TOGETHER. Perhaps this is true in the OT as well?


Marques

Makes sense to me. If the Son and Father were working together in the New Testament, and since God does not change, maybe they were working together in the Old Testament? How can we separate them even when the translators use singular nouns? It's like, if you see Jesus you see the Father. I dunno, just thinking out loud.

I know you know God practices what He preaches, and God inspired Paul to write.....

Php 2:1  Is there any encouragement from belonging to Christ? Any comfort from His love? Any fellowship together in the Spirit? Are your hearts tender and compassionate?
Php 2:2  Then make me truly happy by agreeing wholeheartedly with each other, loving one another, and working together with one mind and purpose.

Interesting topic, was thinking about it yesterday.

G.Driggs

[Duane]

Aen't we baptized "into the body of Christ"? 
John 14:6 "In my father's house are many mansions". 
Mansions, I learned on B-T, are not buildings, but rather our spiritual heavenly bodies--as opposed to our present "earthly tents".
So I guess we are all one spiritual body "in Christ/God".
Beautiful, ain't it?
 

[Kat]

Here is more interesting sections from "Who and What is Jesus? And Who is the Father?'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg38213.html -------------------

Now when you go thought the OT, you read about 'God' and you read about 'the Lord.' We are going to find out who this 'God' and who this 'Lord' is, or is it the same one or who in the world is it talking about? Because if God is God and Jesus is God and all through the Bible we read about God, well which one is it talking about? What do we know about the Father - God? If no man ever saw Him and no man ever heard His voice. Show me something in here, that God said it. Because the second it was said, it can't be God, because nobody ever heard His voice.

[4] John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God...

Actually & literally this verse says, "God was the Word" (Concordant).

John 1:1-3  ...and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by HIM (the Word) and without Him was not anything made that was made.
 
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelled among us, the only begotten of the Father?"
v
"For though there be that are called gods (theos is plural), whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many; But to us there is but ONE GOD, the Father, OF Whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ BY Whom are all things, and we by Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).

Everything, "all things" are out 'of ' God. The word "of" in this verse is ek ex and it means--origin, from, out of, like exist (to get out of, to exist). Here is the Concordant Translation "there is One God, the Father, OUT OF WHOM ALL IS."  If "all things are out of God," then certainly that includes Jesus. Where is Jesus Christ 'from'? Is He some 'thing'? He is the grandest thing of all.  "All things," are ek ex from the Father. So where did Christ come from? It says "all things" are of or out of (ek ex) God. There is only one God, the Father, and we in Him. "and one Lord Jesus Christ BY Whom" that means through or the channel of. There it is! 

Everything, all knowledge, the plan of the universe is out of God. But then it is channeled through Jesus Christ. Why?  He's the Spokesman, and the creator, and the Savior, and the example to humanity. Because God can't come down and face us, face to face. Christ in His glory, in the OT, you couldn't face Him either, it would have blown you away. But He emptied Himself. Christ talked about "My Father, your Father; My God, your God." (John 20:17) 

So everything there is, is out of God and then it is through or by Jesus Christ that He channeled everything that there is.
v
This one might blow you away. How could God give birth, to a God? I guess you would say 'a' God, He is His Son, 'a' Son, 'a' God. How do you give birth to a God?

John 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him.

Now we have always heard, that we know nobody has ever seen God the Father, heard His voice, seen His shape ever. The only begotten Son, He is the One who reveals who the Father is, right. The Concordant translates that "unfolds Him." You know, unfolds - unravels who and what the Father is to humanity. Because the first part said, nobody has ever seen God. But here is the point I want to draw attention to, "the only Begotten Son," Son is not in some manuscripts. The Greek "Theos" [God] is in the manuscripts.
 
Let me give you John 1:18  the Concordant version and some others.

a. "God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten GOD Who is in the bosom of the Father, He unfolds Him" (Concordant Literal Version)

b. "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, Who is at the Father's side, has made Him known" (New International Version).

c. "the only begotten Son, Who is God and close to the Father's heart" (The New Testament in the Language of Today By William Beck).

d. "No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son Who is close to the Father's heart" (New Revised Standard Version).

e. "No one has seen God at any time: An Only-Begotten God, The One existing in the bosom of the Father, He has interpreted Him" (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible). Etc.

How about that. The only begotten God. Jesus Christ the only begotten God.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Marky Mark]

Aen't we baptized "into the body of Christ"? 
John 14:6 "In my father's house are many mansions". 
Mansions, I learned on B-T, are not buildings, but rather our spiritual heavenly bodies--as opposed to our present "earthly tents".So I guess we are all one spiritual body "in Christ/God".
Beautiful, ain't it?

Hello Duane. Hope you don't mind, but I did a little research on the word 'mansion' and came up with this.


The Greek word translated mansion is the word "mone." 

G3438μονή
monē
mon-ay'

From G3306; a staying, that is, residence (the act or the place): - abode, mansion.

It appears twice in the New Testament and both are in this same fourteenth chapter of John.

G3438μονή
monē
Total KJV Occurrences: 2

abode, 1
Joh_14:23

mansions, 1
Joh_14:2


Here are those two verses:

Joh 14:2  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Joh 14:23  Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

The second use, verse 23,  explains the meaning of the word. It simply means an abode, or a place of residence. God's "house" is a "house" of "many abodes."

Scripture makes it clear that the place of God's residence [mansion;abode] is not in temples made with  hands,but rather, He lives within His people. That is His temple.

1Co 3:16  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17  If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Rev 21:3  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.


We are God's temple, He has His 'mansion' [residence;abode] within us.


Hope this helps some.



Peace...Mark

[Akira329]

The implications of this study is to redefined what the term "God" truely means. Also to understand the dynamics of the relationship between the Father and Son and the elect(who will be in this family).

A Father and Son with adopted sons and daughters awaiting to be born in the family to become true sons and daughters.
Its all about family yall!!

Antaiwan

[Stacey]

Ever since the March 2011 bible study I can't think of the word "God" as being one person. Its just too vague of a description to describe who it is that is being talked about. Ray said,

"I would have made a distinction. I would have translated it something like this, since we know what God is from other Scriptures and so on. I would have translated it something like this, in the beginning the Almighty Family created the heavens and the earth. What's wrong with that? To me that's what God is. Takes care of the 'one,' family, takes care of the plural, family has more than one unit.

Or we could say, the Almighty Divine Family, saying let Us make man in Our image. You could throw the word divine or divinity in there, that okay that's a good word. It takes care of the plurality of the word Elohim. We could call Him the Almighty Divine Family. What's wrong with that?"

and my thinking about "God" changed forever. GK and John, me too on the who to pray to thing. I reckon since Jesus is the mediator, if I pray to Jesus it will get to the who it needs to.

DOES GOD TALK TO HIMSELF?

I don't know, even after reading everything here but, if there was ever a time when the Father was by Himself I suppose that isn't totally out of the question.

[JohnMichael]

As Kat and Samson can attest to, this has been a sticking point for me. Some interesting Scriptures that I found to add to the discussion:

Joh 4:24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

2Co 3:17  Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

1Ti 1:17  Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Mal 1:14  But cursed be the deceiver, which hath in his flock a male, and voweth, and sacrificeth unto the Lord a corrupt thing: for I am a great King, saith the LORD of hosts, and my name is dreadful among the heathen.

1Ti 6:15  Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate (Greek: Ruler), the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16  Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Rev 19:16  And on His outer garment and on His thigh He has a name written, KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Rev 19:13  The outer garment in which He is clad has been dipped in blood and His name is THE WORD OF GOD.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

Jer 10:10  But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God (Hebrew: El), The everlasting (Hebrew: 'ad' - continual, perpetual) Father, The Prince of Peace.

Mal 1:6  A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?

Rom 11:34  For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35  Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36  For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

1Co 8:6  But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Zec 13:9  And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.


Needless to say, I'm really really really waiting on Ray's article (Lord willing he finishes it).

In Him,
John