> General Discussions
Question from Denise (Revilonivek)
mharrell08:
I have prayed and told God what was on my mind.I said it just doesn't make sense nor does it make sense.
How can Jesus say and preach he overcame the world and told us we can do it too when he himself had the advantage of having the Holy Spirit and majority of the world don't.
How can people follow him by example if he had the advantage and they don't. It sounds almost hypocrite, unless he was fully man, who suffered like us, repenting from sins and becoming perfect through suffering and was begotten of God at his baptism. Like sons and daughters are begotten of God at a point in their lives after much suffering.
If you guys have any answers to these questions.. That would be wonderful because it will give me peace.
Thanks,
Denise
Dave in Tenn:
Denise, others will be along with clear teaching, but let me just make a couple of points.
1. It's a theological assumption that Christ was begotten of God at His baptism. The accounts of His baptism make no such statement. II Peter 1:17 could be read as another 'gospel account' and Peter makes no such assertion either. It's a far different thing to have One's Sonship announced than it is to be begotten.
2. The scripture I believe you are referencing when you say He was 'made perfect by suffering' is this: Heb 5:8,9 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him...
I believe it's the same 'obedience' that is mentioned in Phillipians 2:5-8. It's after/as the result of His Obedience there that God "exalts Him and graces Him with a name which is above every other name." In Hebrews, it's after/as a result of His obedience that He's "made perfect and became the author of eternal salvation".
What came first? The obedience. Always and only obedient to the Father.
You say that Jesus overcame the world and told us we can do it too. Where did He say that? There's too much to say here in a forum post. I'd recommend Ray's "How Hard is it Getting Saved?" paper and 817 hours of meditation. :D
You say it feels like cheating or hypocritical for Him to overcome the world because of the advantage of His having the Spirit of God. How much like cheating and being hypocritical is our desire to 'overcome the world' without the Spirit of God? That IS religion. Worthless. Most of the world doesn't have it? Let them ask, and it will be given to them running over.
Lastly, you seem to be saying that Christ's sinlessness negated the 'suffering' you think He endured by your contention that He was a sinner and needed to repent, etc. You and I must live in very different spiritual universes. To be tempted in all points--yet without sin--IS suffering, and suffering on a scale you and I can't match. Surely you don't think resisting evil is easy. Don't you think Someone who resisted unto Blood and, according to Scripture, never sinned could learn obedience from His suffering? When did 'obedience' become 'disobedience'? Isn't obedience the thing He learned?
I'm not a teacher, Denise. I just want to help you knock some of those theological (or theoillogical) cobwebs you've gathered up loose. I promise you there is no way you can 'understand' what Ray is talking about until you begin to let it go.
Dennis Vogel:
--- Quote ---How can Jesus say and preach he overcame the world and told us we can do it too when he himself had the advantage of having the Holy Spirit and majority of the world don't.
--- End quote ---
I've had the same thoughts. If God Almighty struck me blind and talked to me one on one I'm pretty sure I would do much better.
We are in the process of overcoming. That means it takes time. I don't think any of us make it to perfection while we are in the flesh. I don't know of any human that died perfect.
God is creating judges. 'The majority of the world' is not destined to be judges.
Samson:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on July 25, 2011, 04:22:07 AM ---I have prayed and told God what was on my mind.I said it just doesn't make sense nor does it make sense.
How can Jesus say and preach he overcame the world and told us we can do it too when he himself had the advantage of having the Holy Spirit and majority of the world don't.
How can people follow him by example if he had the advantage and they don't. It sounds almost hypocrite, unless he was fully man, who suffered like us, repenting from sins and becoming perfect through suffering and was begotten of God at his baptism. Like sons and daughters are begotten of God at a point in their lives after much suffering.
If you guys have any answers to these questions.. That would be wonderful because it will give me peace.
Thanks,
Denise
--- End quote ---
Hi Denise,
I don't know if any of My input " will give you peace " and be of any assistance to you. All Humanity, with the exception of Jesus were Born into this World without any prior existence or knowledge. Jesus had a Pre-Human existence accompanied with that knowledge and prior existence. John. 1:1,3,10,11 & 18 ( these verses paraphrased for specific emphasis) " He was in the world, and the world was made by him. "
Jesus is God's Spokesman, The Word, The Master Builder or Master Worker and The wisdom of God.
Proverbs. 8:22-30(Some verses quoted from this passage): " The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old." Pro 8:30 Then I wasH1961 byH681 him, as one brought upH525 with him: and I wasH1961 dailyH3117 H3117 his delight,H8191 rejoicingH7832 alwaysH3605 H6256 beforeH6440 him;
H525
אמון
'âmôn
aw-mone'
From H539, probably in the sense of training; skilled, that is, an architect (like H542): - one brought up.
John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Jesus had the Fullness of Deity within Him and although He had a physical Body, He didn't possess a Carnal Mind (Fleshly Thinking) and because He had the " Fullness of Deity," dwelling in Him, He was incapable of sinning. The rest of Humanity, with the exception of Jesus were Born with the capacity to Sin and have a Carnal Mind, too spiritually weak to do otherwise, Jeremiah. 17:9. God's Chosen Elect have the holy spirit dwelling in them, but not the fullness of God. Does having the holy spirit dwelling inside oneself require an absolute 100 % dwelling of that holy spirit inside that particular person or is it a process. A good example of an imperfect Human having the holy spirit dwelling inside them is none other than, The Apostle Paul. I don't think any would argue that Paul, after His experience on the road to Damascus didn't have God's spirit dwelling in Him, but His spiritual improvement was a gradual process. In the case of Jesus, His Body(Greek-Sarx) experienced pain & suffering, that would include His emotional experiences, but Jesus did not have a Carnal Mind(Sarkeekos & Sarkeenos).
One of Your Questions: How can Jesus say and preach he overcame the world and told us we can do it too when he himself had the advantage of having the Holy Spirit and majority of the world don't.
Answer: When Jesus made the statement about " overcoming the World(Greek-Kosmos, the order or arrangement of things mostly including the people alienated from God), He was speaking to and about The Elect of God in this Lifetime(Aion-Age). People of the World or Kosmos won't overcome in this Lifetime and don't have the holy spirit dwelling in them and won't gain Eonian Life or the life of the age. Paul overcame, He fought the fine fight & had victory over this World, because He was Chosen, before the foundation of the World.
2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2Ti 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
2Ti 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
Actually, God didn't intend for the majority of Mankind to understand the Scriptures. The proof of this is self evident, IE- the conflicting & contradictory interpretations & Doctrines of the thousands of Christendom's Denominations. Their Babylonian Language, a language of confusion. The Scriptures were & are primarily written for God's Chosen Elect and only they are capable of understanding them.
Read Ray's Twelve Truths to understanding God's Word. Even the Apostles of Jesus didn't understand His Parables until after they received the Parakleetos(Comforter or Entreater) at Pentacost.
Denise, You mentioned the word "Perfect," in Your above Post. The word Perfect in both the Hebrew & Greek doesn't necessarily mean Morally & Spiritually Flawless, but often refers to being complete or as We sometimes say "Perfected." Don't forget the principle of The Absolute and The Relative. Being "Perfected" can refer to the process of experiencing something to it's finish or completion. Prior to Jesus Birth, He never experienced a Life in a Body of Flesh, feeling Pain, emotions, etc. So, He experienced 33 1/2 years of Life in a Body of Flesh, prior to His Birth(Pre-Human) existence, He didn't experience these things, because He never had a physical body.
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Samson on July 25, 2011, 06:59:46 AM ---Denise, You mentioned the word "Perfect," in Your above Post. The word Perfect in both the Hebrew & Greek doesn't necessarily mean Morally & Spiritually Flawless, but often refers to being complete or as We sometimes say "Perfected." Don't forget the principle of The Absolute and The Relative. Being "Perfected" can refer to the process of experiencing something to it's finish or completion. Prior to Jesus Birth, He never experienced a Life in a Body of Flesh, feeling Pain, emotions, etc. So, He experienced 33 1/2 years of Life in a Body of Flesh, prior to His Birth(Pre-Human) existence, He didn't experience these things, because He never had a physical body.
--- End quote ---
Excellent point Samson
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost
This is the 'completion' or perfection that is spoken of in Hebrews 5:9.
Marques
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
Go to full version