Did Our Heavenly Father really intend for it all to go this way?

[crazy4bam]

I know I to not post much or answer. I have been wondering about this topic for awhile. The way that man and woman have progressed seems to me that He would have planned a better way of life. Most parents want to give their children the best in life and do their best to that feat. I know that He already had all things planned, but did it really turn out they way He wanted.

I watch the news or read the paper, listen to the radio. Nowadays facebook can even give you the news. The news to me is just filled with people killing people, kids disappearing, wars in countries some of us never heard of. Is all this strife what he intended for his children.

I use to work for a mental hospital, now I work for a big grocery store chain. It was maybe 2 weeks ago it was about 115 degrees with the heat index hear in Pennsylvania. A customer told me I would like die and go to heaven because with this heat I surely know what hell feels like. All I could do was look at her and say nothing.

I was just pondering this question: Did God our father really intend for all this pain and suffering? It reminds of a saying I hear repeated alot: Like father like son! I know my question makes no sense, and I just rambled on, sorry! My husband would say Women..they never get to the point!

I guess it just seems if he knows ahead of time what we need to learn, then why make all this suffering? Did He really intend all of this pain?

                                                                                            Thanks from the crazy one

[arion]

If we think that God could of chosen a better plan then what do we base that on?  When I start to think this way I hear some of the words that God gave to Job when he was complaining.  It doesn't make any sense when you look at the suffering and seemingly needless waste.  If there was a better way then God would of chosen it.  If God is sovereign over his creation, if He knows the beginning from the end, if He has a plan and He's working out that plan then yes, I have to believe that God did indeed intend for it to go exactly the way it's going.  I'm at work right now so I can't pull up the scriptures but there are many that testify to this.  Some things are just a matter of faith and this might be one of them.

[Marky Mark]

I was just pondering this question: Did God our father really intend for all this pain and suffering?

Yes,Gods intention for mankind to suffer was most certainly according to His will.

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Email reply from Ray.
http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#suffer


[Ray replies]

Thank you for your email and comments.

I will briefly go through your comments:

You said, "...you [that's me] feel that God is to BLAME for all the suffering mankind experiences." Well, I would say "blame" is a very poor choice of words to describe what I believe regarding this matter. Blame denotes being WRONG or doing BAD or SINNING. God NEVER sins! A sin is a MISTAKE, a MISSING OF THE MARK, a FALLING SHORT of the ideal, whatsoever is not OF FAITH, and LAWLESSNESS. 

God is not to BLAME for any of these. God is, however, responsible for EVIL and SINNERS, and everything else in this universe, seeing that it was He Who created it.

It does no good to hide one's head in the sand and pretend that God has nothing to do with EVIL. I heard Billy Graham teach the whole world from the national cathedral after 9/11 that, "God is not the author of evil." But of course, Billy Graham doesn't use the Scriptures for his authority, but rather the unscriptural traditions of men:

Isa. 45:7,  "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace [good], and CREATE EVIL;  I the LORD DO ALL THESE THINGS." 

God most certainly IS the creator of EVIL!

Contrary to the pagan and unscriptural traditions and heresies of Christendom, God IS responsible for ALL, because "ALL IS OF GOD" (Eph. 1:11, Rom. 11:36, II Cor.5:18), Etc.

You can't quote a Scripture that states that God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, and therefore conclude that God is opposed to anyone ever dying. God Himself makes WAR IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Have you never read ALL of the Bible:

"Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not EVIL AND GOOD?" (Lam. 3:38).

"...an experience of EVIL hath God given to the sons of man to humble him thereby" (Ecc. 1:13, Concordant Translation).

"Or has not the potter [GOD] the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet, on for DISHONOR?" (Rom. 9:19-25).

"...I [GOD] will bring EVIL from the north, and a GREAT DESTRUCTION" (Jer. 4:6).

"...Hear, O earth:  behold, I [GOD] will bring EVIL upon this people..." (Jer. 6:19).

"And he said, I [the lying spirit] will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets... and He [GOD] said, ...GO forth, and DO SO" (I Kg. 22:22).

"He [GOD] turned their heart to HATE HIS PEOPLE..." (Psa. 105:25).

"...Thus said the Lord; Behold, I FRAME EVIL AGAINST YOU, and devise a device against you..." (Jer. 18:11).

"O LORD, why has THOU MADE US TO ERR from thy ways, and HARDENED OUR HEART from thy fear?" (Isa. 63:17).

"...so shall the Lord bring upon you ALL EVIL THINGS, until he have destroyed you..." (Josh. 23:15).

"...shall there be  EVIL in a city, and the LORD HAS NOT DONE IT?" (Am. 3:6).

"Thus saith the Lord of hosts... go and SMITE Amelek... DESTROY... SLAY both man and woman, INFANT AND SUCKLING..." (I Sam. 15:2-3).

These may not be verses for Sunday school children, but they are Scripture for the mature.

God "SCOURGES every son that He receives." If you know anything about "scourging" you know it is quite severe. Job's afflictions were QUITE severe, our Apostle Paul's afflictions were QUITE severe.

God created EVIL, and God uses EVIL. But, He uses it for a GOOD AND HOLY AND RIGHTEOUS PURPOSE! "Evil" has nor moral bias. Evil is only a SIN when men use evil against other men. When God uses it, it is NO sin.

I did not say that Satan said: "Lord God, may I have permission to beat the hell out of Job?"  I was merely showing that that WAS the implication of the discussion. Being "permitted" to do something is the same as "permission" to do something; there is no difference.  Now, notice your OWN words:  "Then   Jehovah...PERMITTED Satan to test Job's integrity to the limit."

Jesus Christ is not a man to be compared with us, as when Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness.

You suggest that I feel that God "...is to blame for the rebellion in Eden!   That could not be any farther from the truth. The bible says that Jehovah's ORIGINAL PURPOSE...." Again, I don't like your choice of words, "blame." Let's say "responsible."  And that IS the truth.

You mention God's "original purpose" suggesting that that purpose has now been thwarted and has forced God to go to plan 'B'!  Now that is nonsense!  NO ONE thwarted God's original plan. God is not going to "Plan B." Contrary to all Christendom, God IS NOT RUNNING A DAMAGE CONTROL CENTER FROM HIS THRONE IN HEAVEN!!!

No one. ABSOLUTELY NO ONE will ever thwart God's original plan! It is blasphemy to even suggest it! God has always known the beginning from the end. How and why, pray tell, would God have provided a Sacrifice "SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" (before Adam and Eve were ever created), if God did not plan for Adam and Eve TO SIN and disobey and eat of the forbidden fruit, and thereby have need of a SAVIOUR?

We have to have a little sensibility about us. God Himself possesses a knowledge of good and evil. God wants SONS. Sons posses the attributes of their Father. It was necessary for us to learn of good and evil. They are both in the same fruit tree, as there can be no knowledge of good without a knowledge of evil. All of life's knowledge is a contrast. We cannot appreciate health unless we see sickness, we cannot appreciate food until we get hungry. When cannot know what light is unless we experience darkness. 

Your theory that man would have been happy in the Garden for all eternity if he hadn't eaten of the forbidden fruit is nonsense. He didn't really know that ANYTHING in the Garden was good--he had never experienced EVIL! It's that simple and it's that profound. God is truly WISE!

God has designed men to be spiritually WEAK. Men go against God's WILL--God planned for men to go against His will--it was His original INTENTION. But...BUT, absolutely NO ONE HAS EVER OR EVER WILL, GO AGAINST HIS INTENTION! Romans 9:19 should read, "Why, then, is He still blaming? for who has withstood HIS INTENTION?" And the answer is, "absolutely NO ONE"!

You casually mention the Serpent, Satan the Devil in the Garden. Where did HE come from? Who created HIM? How come HE was permitted to destroy Adam and Eve? Where was GOD during all this? Christians put Almighty God on the level of human beings. With the same weaknesses, the same stupidity, the same inept plans, etc., etc. God IS NOT A MAN!   These things did not "just happen" in the Garden without God's KNOWING or without God's PERMISSION, or without God's INTENTION that they happen!

In your closing paragraph you use all caps stating: "GOD DOES NOT CAUSE SUFFERING!"  I'm sorry, that statement is just not true. Job was a perfect and upright man, and yet God TOLD SATAN TO INFLICT HIM WITH UNIMAGINABLE SUFFERING!

Read it again!

David suffered all the days of his life. Paul suffered like no man who has ever lived (II Cor 11:22-28). Jesus personally said how severely Paul would have to SUFFER (Acts 9:16). Jesus Christ SUFFERED (Mat. 16:21). And it "PLEASED GOD TO BRUISE HIM" in that suffering of death on the cross!! It is through MUCH trials and tribulation [suffering] that we enter the Kingdom of God (Acts 14:23).

And even more, Peter tells us that for the very PURPOSE OF SUFFERING we were called! "For for this were you called, seeing that Christ also SUFFERED for your sakes, leaving you an example [or copy], that YOU SHOULD BE FOLLOWING UP IN THE FOOTPRINTS of Him..."

Just one more: "So that, let those also who ARE SUFFERING [why? for what purpose? by Whose hand?] according TO THE WILL OF GOD commit their souls to a faithful Creator in the doing of Good" (I Pet. 4:19). It is "according to the will of God" that we suffering. I don't mean to be overly critical of your comments, but they just aren't Scriptural.

May God guide you into His wisdom and perfect will for you life.

Sincerely,

Ray





Hope this helps some.

Peace...Mark

[Kat]

Well we actually need this experience of good and evil in this life to learn and grow from. A dark/evil backdrop is a necessity so that we will have a contrast. This life of good and evil is teaching us lessons from experience from which we gain vastly important knowledge. Here are few places that Ray speaks on this.


http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html ----------------------------------------

EVERYTHING IS RELATIVE

Everything in the universe is a contrast with or to something else in the universe. Nothing can be known about anything without contrasting it with other things. You cannot think a thought nor can you perform a deed without a working knowledge of these contrasting factors. If I should say that a box is big, you could not have any conception of what I am saying unless you also know what it is for something to be small. Something is only smooth in contrast to it being rough. Up is only up in relation to down. Without the contrasting relationship between two opposites "up" could just as easily be "down." And all big boxes might be perceived as small were it not for the fact that there would be no concept of small without a knowledge of big.
v

Having a working knowledge of these relative and contrasting terms and concepts is absolutely essential in living our lives. We must all come to know and to experience both good and evil. The universal teaching that God "never intended" for man to eat of "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" is as false and unscriptural as anything could ever be. It was both essential and paramount that man should eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Knowledge of both good and evil is an attribute of God Himself. If we are to be the "sons of God," we too must partake of this quality of God's nature. How could man ever be fully made into the very image of His Creator God if he did not possess even the basic fundamental attributes of his Creator and Father?

Let me make one thing clear at this point, lest my detractors think they have discovered a major flaw in my teaching. "Evil" is not good nor is it eternal. Nonetheless, a "knowledge of evil" is good and is eternal. All evil will take its place in the lake of fire, but a knowledge of evil is eternal just as sure our God, Who possesses a knowledge of evil, is eternal.

And so man's life consists of a combination of both good and evil thoughts, words, and deeds. The most saintly of men have had their flaws and the most evil of men have possessed at least a few qualities of good.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg35013.html -------

Now there is nothing like God in the universe. There is nothing that God has made, that is anything like God in the universe. God obviously (because He said so), uses the phrase, 'He has a desire unto the work of His hand" (Job 14:15). "He has a desire," now that is scriptural. God has desires. He has what the KJ calls pleasures, goals, things that He wants to accomplish. He wants these things, you can't scripturally deny that. God made everything for Himself. But He is not a selfish God, because there is part of the creation that involves angels and humanity. 

Now He doesn't want to make puppets. It's, 'oh Ray we're just a bunch of puppets according to you.' He doesn't want puppets or little play things. Like I have kitties, I love my kitties. They are fun and cute and wonderful. They each have their own personality, I understand them. Sometimes they even get excited about me, but not too often. You all know you don't call a cat and they come, they don't do that. But sometimes my favorite cat, which is a Mingcoon cat, long hair, big bushy tail. Sometimes I'll go to the window and I'll say, Stumpy, Stumpy and he jumps right up on the window and I pet him through the screen. To me that is worth a million dollars, I just love that cat.

But God wants more than just a little toy or kitten or whatever. He wants creatures that are very intelligent and that think three dimensional, subjectively. Who can appreciate the beauty, harmony and music and so many things that the human psyche is capable of. But He wants these creatures to be like Him.

Now you can say whatever you want, you might not approve of what God is doing or how He's doing it. I mean I have thought already, as most of you will, sometime in your life, if you ever think deeply about these things. Surely this could have been done in a better way. But that's why God says, My ways are not your ways, I don't think like you and you don't think like Me and not by just a little bit.

Isa 55:9  "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

That's how far apart our thinking is. But I want to bring this together. The way He's doing this is you've got to go through a living hell on this earth. It's the only way, it's God's way.
v

So what IS... that's what's suppose to be. Right here and now, this is what God wants. Why? Apparently this is the best way for Him to get what He wants, out of us. To go through this, is the best way!  It's not only the best way, it's the best of the best ways. 


http://bible-truths.com/email12.htm --------------------------------------------

That fact that God exists and that God is sovereign does not somehow deny OUR EXISTENCE. What we say and do absolutely matters. That's WHY we exist, because our existence, and what do say and do DOES MATTER. 
v

By your very existence, you are FORCED to make hundreds of choices daily and live your life. Making choices and living your life brings knowledge, experience, and either builds or sometimes destroy traits of character. God is accomplishing is plan in humanity whether they know or understand what He is doing of not, and most of course, do not know or understand. It is a great privilege to know and understand the plan of God, precious few do. Understanding God's sovereignty PROVES to us that EVERYTHING is going to turn out okay, not only for us, but for the whole creation. What greater hope could there ever be than THIS?
v

"HUMBLE YOURSELF therefore under the MIGHTY hand of God, that He may EXALT YOU IN DUE TIME"  (I Pet. 5:6).

God be with you,

Ray

[G. Driggs]

Sometimes when I get impatient or down about the world or even mad at myself I try to remind myself it's only for a little while and the suffering is nothing compared to what God has in store for us. Not to try an belittle or demean the suffering of others, but I just try to imagine how much better it's going to be later. It's gotta be awesome don't you think? He is really gonna make up for it. It'll be an incredible contrast when we look back. This might sound crazy, but we may even wish we suffered more. That's how awesome it will be, the glory.

Rom 8:18  For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

2Co 4:17  For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight (Greek:burden) of glory;
2Co 4:18  While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Peace crazy4bam,

G.Driggs

[JohnMichael]

Hi Pam,

In accord with what others have stated, I too think that this seemingly out of control world is right on track. There are many Scriptures, stated by others, that testify to the fact.

As a physical example: We would not be able to fully appreciate pleasure if we didn't know pain. We would not know light if we didn't know darkness. We wouldn't know what hot is if we didn't also know what cold felt like. Likewise, spiritually, we wouldn't truly know the goodness, holiness, and righteousness of God if we haven't gone through the absolute depths of evil and wickedness.

From our perspective, it may seem that there is no rhyme or reason to how wicked, hateful, hurtful, and painful this world is. However, rest assured, God is in control of absolutely everything, and the world is right on track with His purpose and plan. As G. Diggs stated, think about this: if this world can be this messed up, how awesome is it going to be when the consummation of the ages happens? When Rev. 21:3-4 comes to pass. How glorious that time will be!

Rev 21:3  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

I hope this helps

In Him,
John

[Akira329]

I was just pondering this question: Did God our father really intend for all this pain and suffering?

Hey crazy4bam,
Have you considered the consequences if the Father did not intend for all this pain and suffering?
What does that say about the God you say you serve and worship??

What will assure you that everything is as it should be?
Do you think you'll find assurance if God had no clue how things would turn out?

[River]

I think it would be different if we knew for sure but we don't and that is what gets us. I may be one of those who like Ray talks about who doesn't believe the words. I do try and I do gain strength from the scriptures but I must admit I struggle. I am at the point where I just do my best and just try to accept what comes. I just try to be thankful and move forward but in many ways I am miserable. I often wonder how I can be so blesssed in many ways but still have such an empty void inside. Listening to Ray's talk on "Are you afraid of God" he touched on many things I ponder. I have to hand it to him for not shying away from real feelings we experince. Being real about this life helps me to deal with it, unlike the just accept Jesus and everything is golden teachings we hear all around us.

[crazy4bam]

  I want to thank all of you for the answers. All the answers given have helped me to understand the in tensions of Our Heavenly Father. Sometimes I just think about this, I will give a reason why. The other day at work I helped a couple bag their groceries and but them in the car. I did this because they had a son who was physically handicapped and has autism. It brought this  question I asked because of this.

[Dawidos]

My head struggles with different aspect of this subject. I never have problems with the same existence of suffering but its degree. How is it possible that we'll all have all, same knowledge of good and evil if our suffering in this world is so different and sometimes unfair. How will I be able to get along with the person with different experience after the consummation of all ages? How can you compare dying by gunshot in the head with dying by being tortured slowly to death. How can you understand somebody with mental illness if you only had in your life headaches and some bruises. Rich-poor? Cancer stricken person-somebody killed in an explosion? These questions imply why there are people who believe in reincarnation.  

[DougE6]

Dawidos. those are good questions. When I think oif those things, and I do often, I end up thinking about the magnitude of suffering in Jesus life, in the Apostle Paul, in the heroes of the faith. It sobers me greatly that God did not excuse them, no, quite the opposite. Jesus suffering I really understand, from the point of view that he has tasted to some degree all of our suffering, and He did suffer a horribly painful death. SO no one can even say God was unfair in not subjecting His own Son the the hardships that God brings us through. God has felt it all personally. So not onlu was Jesus the propiation for all sin, but He experienced the pains of our hardships and He experienced our death, too.

But the Apostle Paul says the suffering of this age is NOT WORTH COMPARING to the glory of the Next! That is why we need to get our suffering over NOW, in this Age. I do not want to go through the judgements of the Lake of Fire. I want to get my judgements done in this life. I truly believe that I do not hold a candle to many of the people who have walked before me in faith. What they have done in perseverance and in faithfulness to God is breathtaking. Yes, it is true that without Jesus in them, they could do nothing. But they still felt the pain.

So we fill up what is lacking in Christs sufferings as we walk on this earth.  This suffering will be proven to have great value.  I think it will be more evened out through the lake of fire, for everyone, who goes there. God is very thorough. He will have all the wood hay and stubble, burned. He only wants gold and precious stones.

[mharrell08]

I do not want to go through the judgements of the Lake of Fire. I want to get my judgements done in this life.

I just wanted make a point that everyone goes through the Lake of Fire. All of God's judgments are by the same fire, which is God's Spirit.

Excerpt from Lake of Fire Part 16-D4 (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm):

And so Matt. 18:8 is a pivotal Scripture in our understanding of Gehenna fire, everlasting fire, and lake of fire. The spiritual Gehenna fire, is the very same eonian fire which are used to Judge Gods people-the House of God. Then Jesus tells us it is also the very same fire that will be used to Judge Satan's messengers. And these messengers/angels of Satan are his "transformed" [Gk: metaschēmatizō, 'disguised'] ministers of righteousness: "Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works" (II Cor. 11:15).

All of Satans ministers-the deceived clergymen of the Church, MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH, will not be judged until the Resurrection to Judgment at the Great White Throne, and that Judgment is in The Lake of Fire. Thus we now have it on the authority of Jesus Christ, that Gehenna fire, eonian fire, and lake of fire, are all the same spiritual fire of God, seeing that "Our God is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29), and God does not change.


Doug, I think it's good to remember that even the desire to do good works comes from God alone. We, as well as the apostles, can 'stir people up' towards good works all day long, but until God gives them that desire, we can only wait patiently for God to manifest these good works in their lives.


Marques

[ez2u]

really thoughtful and good replies

[JohnMichael]

My head struggles with different aspect of this subject. I never have problems with the same existence of suffering but its degree. How is it possible that we'll all have all, same knowledge of good and evil if our suffering in this world is so different and sometimes unfair. How will I be able to get along with the person with different experience after the consummation of all ages? How can you compare dying by gunshot in the head with dying by being tortured slowly to death. How can you understand somebody with mental illness if you only had in your life headaches and some bruises. Rich-poor? Cancer stricken person-somebody killed in an explosion? These questions imply why there are people who believe in reincarnation.  

It is only the carnal mind that wants to compare whose is better or worse. Consider the mindset of the participants in the following passage:

Joh 21:20  Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following (the one who also leaned on His breast at supper, and said, Lord, who is he who betrays You?)
Joh 21:21  Seeing him, Peter said to Jesus, Lord, and what of this one?
Joh 21:22  Jesus said to him, If I desire that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.

I see carnality showing jealousy and pride. Peter, not yet converted, is showing them toward John. In Peter's mind, Jesus is playing favorites, and Peter doesn't like that very much. Jesus tells him quite plainly: You follow me. That is your only concern.

When it's all said and done, when all mankind has learned righteousness, carnality won't be around anymore. Therefore, people will not be comparing whose was better, worse, etc, anymore. God appointed them to the life they had - no more, no less.

Hope that helps.

In Him,
John

[crazy4bam]

  I would like to say thank you to all who answered my question and then some. It is always good to hear good things can happen we all just have to be patient and wait. It just seems to be more suffering then not. It just bothers me at times but all your answers have greatly helped me. Thank you all, for guiding me to more truths.

[Dawidos]

Thank you for your answers, but I don't mean what is worse or better. I mean the problem of possessing all knowledge of good and evil.

Logically speaking, different experience will lead to different knowledge. You can't have it both ways. It's illogical. To gain full knowledge, you will have to experience everything!

[Dawidos]

Now that is the answer I've been looking for. Anyway, my sincere thanks to anyone who joined the discussion.