Intrusive thoughts...

[onelovedread]

Here's what I got so far:

Ian's Question 1. I was wondering what causes intrusive thoughts, from a Biblical perspective?Arc: Thoughts are part of the human condition
Kat: Satan is spirit and invisible, he seeks to influence our minds
Gk: If there is no free-will, only cause and effect, then would not circumstances play the greatest role from a biblical perspective?

Ian's Question 2. Where and why do people have these thoughts?Dave in Tenn: thoughts do come out of the hearts of men
Gk: "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders" (Mark 7:21).

Ian's Question 3. If they all come from within the heart, why would someone be upset about it?Kat: We need to guard our thoughts, if we do not nip it in the bud it can ultimately lead to sin. So when we become aware that our thoughts are not positive/good, this should send up warning signals to us and we should disrupt those thought patterns promptly and change them to something positive/uplifting.
Gk: I... would .... just come right out and say a slight breakthrough of understanding that we will grow spiritually as God sees fit and no amount of kiniption fits on our part causes the slightest stir in his plan, but if I did that I would be admitting my kiniption fits are pointless
Judy: Always be gentle with yourself because you have a simple human mind and these things happen.
Joel: Paul tells us to put on the WHOLE armour of God, that we may be able to withstand the WILES of the devil.
Wiles=sly trick, or beguile.
Lewis: When these thoughts enter my mind and I know I want to be rid of them, I ask God to take them away.  That's His job, not mine.
DougE6:  When you realize that intusive thoughts are DEAD to you, and you are dead to them that you give them no mind, that you could care less about them because they are not you, THEY GO AWAY.

Not sure if all of the other postings including mine, help answer Ian's questions. Perhaps Ian will let us know.

[JohnMichael]

I get these "intrusive thoughts" when I see women.

I hold God responsible because He made women so pretty.  What does He think I'm going to think about--Quantum Physics?   

HAHA!!!!!! That was priceless, John. Absolutely priceless. 

[cjwood]

johan from kentucky, you are hilarious! 

claudia

[Deborah-Leigh]

Excellent minutes of the Meeting onelovedread! ~ and the men folks High Spirit, is marvelous!

Arc ~

[GaryK]

Here's what I got so far:

Ian's Question 1. I was wondering what causes intrusive thoughts, from a Biblical perspective?Arc: Thoughts are part of the human condition
Kat: Satan is spirit and invisible, he seeks to influence our minds
Gk: If there is no free-will, only cause and effect, then would not circumstances play the greatest role from a biblical perspective?

Ian's Question 2. Where and why do people have these thoughts?Dave in Tenn: thoughts do come out of the hearts of men
Gk: "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders" (Mark 7:21).

Ian's Question 3. If they all come from within the heart, why would someone be upset about it?Kat: We need to guard our thoughts, if we do not nip it in the bud it can ultimately lead to sin. So when we become aware that our thoughts are not positive/good, this should send up warning signals to us and we should disrupt those thought patterns promptly and change them to something positive/uplifting.
Gk: I... would .... just come right out and say a slight breakthrough of understanding that we will grow spiritually as God sees fit and no amount of kiniption fits on our part causes the slightest stir in his plan, but if I did that I would be admitting my kiniption fits are pointless
Judy: Always be gentle with yourself because you have a simple human mind and these things happen.
Joel: Paul tells us to put on the WHOLE armour of God, that we may be able to withstand the WILES of the devil.
Wiles=sly trick, or beguile.
Lewis: When these thoughts enter my mind and I know I want to be rid of them, I ask God to take them away.  That's His job, not mine.
DougE6:  When you realize that intusive thoughts are DEAD to you, and you are dead to them that you give them no mind, that you could care less about them because they are not you, THEY GO AWAY.

Not sure if all of the other postings including mine, help answer Ian's questions. Perhaps Ian will let us know.

OLD:  Good, glad you did that.

Seems to me in some of the captured statements of #3 that a certain amount of 'free-will' is being imposed as possibility for a desired course/action.  

But then again, maybe not.

gk  

[Kat]

Hi gk,

It may appear that saying when we become aware that our thoughts are not positive/good, this should send up warning signals to us and we should disrupt those thought patterns promptly and change them to something positive/uplifting, sounds like I mean using 'free-will.'

But I am most certainly aware that it is God who is the One behind every cause and is who will make you aware of intrusive thoughts not being good for your spiritual well being and give you the desire and means to remove them.

Sometimes it's good to state the obvious 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hey John of K. ....have you been hanging out with Longhorn?....

Arc

[DougE6]

[ I think women are slightly more attractive than quarks/quote] OK quarks I will grant you...but have you ever seen P Orbitals? http://chemistry.about.com/od/atomicmolecularstructure/a/porbital.htm  LOL 

OK seriously, there must exist a bridge in nature between the spirit and the physical. Every time we think a thought there is a rearrangement of electrons and quantum states taking place in our brain.  There is a physical phenomenom that accompanies/produces each and every thought, without which the thought would not take place. But then how does Gods spirit or our spirit influence matter to make these thoughts possible? Through the wonderful bizarre counter intuitive beautiful world of quantum mechanics! Quantum mechanics is the doorway through which spirit interfaces with matter, among many other things.

It is a fascinating area. It is experinmentally proven beyond any doubt that the observers knowledge of a quantum state can influence outcome of a physical experiments. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc

Doug

[GaryK]

Hi gk,

It may appear that saying when we become aware that our thoughts are not positive/good, this should send up warning signals to us and we should disrupt those thought patterns promptly and change them to something positive/uplifting, sounds like I mean using 'free-will.'

But I am most certainly aware that it is God who is the One behind every cause and is who will make you aware of intrusive thoughts not being good for your spiritual well being and give you the desire and means to remove them.

Sometimes it's good to state the obvious 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi Kat,

I'm the last person on this forum that you need reply and justify any posting you make.   You know there's no free-will, everyone else here that makes postings seem to know there's no freewill, and God willing even I, in some future day, will with heart and soul know beyond knowing there is no free-will.   I long for it.   No shame here and any past posting I've made will be a witness to the wresting match I've had with that portion of Ray's teachings.   

If Ray says it's one of the hardest teachings to come to grips with, that's my man.   And that's that.

My posting wasn't so much for any justification, but, for spiritual support to anyone else in BT-Land who may be having just as hard a time as I have understanding all things really do begin, exist, have co-hesion, purpose, and end with God.    Period.   

For some that's a breeze, for others, it's the longest-hardest mountain in the path given the exposure we have today of what seems like end-less bad news and attempting to rationalize all of it with God's greater mercy and purpose for better.   It's a hard course of study.  And God bless'em if they exist cause I understand.

Hopefully it helps Ian, at the very least, since he asked questions.

gk

[John from Kentucky]

Hi gk,

It may appear that saying when we become aware that our thoughts are not positive/good, this should send up warning signals to us and we should disrupt those thought patterns promptly and change them to something positive/uplifting, sounds like I mean using 'free-will.'

But I am most certainly aware that it is God who is the One behind every cause and is who will make you aware of intrusive thoughts not being good for your spiritual well being and give you the desire and means to remove them.

Sometimes it's good to state the obvious 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Hi Kat,

I'm the last person on this forum that you need reply and justify any posting you make.   You know there's no free-will, everyone else here that makes postings seem to know there's no freewill, and God willing even I, in some future day, will with heart and soul know beyond knowing there is no free-will.   I long for it.   No shame here and any past posting I've made will be a witness to the wresting match I've had with that portion of Ray's teachings.   

If Ray says it's one of the hardest teachings to come to grips with, that's my man.   And that's that.

My posting wasn't so much for any justification, but, for spiritual support to anyone else in BT-Land who may be having just as hard a time as I have understanding all things really do begin, exist, have co-hesion, purpose, and end with God.    Period.   

For some that's a breeze, for others, it's the longest-hardest mountain in the path given the exposure we have today of what seems like end-less bad news and attempting to rationalize all of it with God's greater mercy and purpose for better.   It's a hard course of study.  And God bless'em if they exist cause I understand.

Hopefully it helps Ian, at the very least, since he asked questions.

gk

Hey gk,

Can I throw something out that I think proves mankind does not have free will?  You may have already considered it.  If so just disregard what I'm saying.

The Scriptures say that there are none righteous, no not one.  That all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.  And other Scriptures that show all mankind have sinned.

I haven't met all mankind, but the ones I have met have all done some things wrong.

If man has free will, complete freedom to decide and choose to do good, then would not some men have made the free will choice to do good?

In fact, if there are two choices--1) do good, 2) do bad---then at random, wouldn't 50% of mankind freely decide to do good and the other 50% freely decide to do bad?

But since all of us have sinned, does that not prove that there is something else at work here?  That we have been designed to sin?  That it comes natural to us?  And that we do not have the free will to decide to go against the grain and do good?

I stole the above ideas somewhere from Ray (my bad  ), but are not those ideas a compelling proof for no free will?  What do you think?

John

[JohnMichael]

Hi GK,

John from Kentucky makes an excellent point. In addition to what he said, I would pose this question. We all have our "thorns in the flesh" - those sins that do so easily beset us. For some, it may be hatred; for others, it may be pride and arrogance; and yet, for others it may be some type of sexual sin; etc. If a person had free will, wouldn't that person have been able to choose not to have that sin? They would have been able to "will" themselves out of that sin, wouldn't they?

Just a thought-provoking question intended to help

In Him,
John

[Deborah-Leigh]

Late last night, I received an encouraging email from one of our sisters here, who encouraged me and lifted my heart. She is one of many of us, who currently is burdened with inordinate pain and suffering. Her message meant a lot and her silent agony can be mirrored into all of our hearts in empathy, gentleness and care, by association.

So here is something for you, and all of us, who are not unacquainted with pain or grief. These thoughts, not presented as theological discourse or teaching but just, as though we are all together, somewhat in the dark, and gathered around a camp fire, sharing stories if you like...

Lets look at two words.

Consciousness and preference.  Those words can be like two cement and gravel rocks in the mouth. Lets toss them out and eat a marsh mellow instead.

We are all conscious and we all have preferences.

God determines our consciousness. We are conscious with the presence and in the presence of God who is awake, conscious, and who never sleeps.

So God is awake and it might be considered that most of us are dreaming....a nightmare.

We might be said to be asleep in a dark dream where our conscious perception is that we are separate from God. We start to wake when it begins to finally dawn on us that  when and as we recognize our unity with one another and our oneness with Christ....let THEM be one, is NOT a vain nor empty, failed request put in red ink, written in the mind and soul, heart and reality of Christ, the Son of God. Them, is US, you and I.

Consciousness is, not, free will. Lets separate the two one by one.

We are not conscious by human self determination. Our bodies are automatically programmed to breathe without our conscious efforts and the heart beats without our permission. Homeostasis is a recognized function of the body that is designed to send white blood cells to the site of any casualty and the immune system is already in place in the body.

Doug you said something about the bridge between the body and the spirit, interfacing between the two. Draw that blanket about your shoulders and let the fire light continue to give you the Light that is dawning in your seeing into the Quantum field, can not be anything but of the consciousness that is of God, from God, and out of God.

Can the bridge be within our consciousness, as the Spirit of God, fully awake, fully switched on, in our hearts that might be hardened or dysfunctional, asleep or dreaming, yet the spark of life is in all the living.

Not all the physically living are awake. Let the dead sleep on...let sleeping dogs lie....let he who is filthy remain filthy still...God will wake them up...

In this hushed little enclave of veterans who are gathered from across the globe, who have never even met nor seen one another in the flesh, yet still as gathered we are in our unity of agreement that what Ray has lit in the fire that warms our souls, there is the Light of God and the Peace of Christ that liberates us from the dungeons of Babylonian incarceration.

We know there are vast terrains in the mind that have been dug up and cultivated by theologians for the past 2000 years and the thunder of their waters, they can and do stir up obscurity to dirty the most crystal clear thinking. We cannot with a cup of pure water, change the muddy tide of the worlds thinking.

God said, I will give you a heart of flesh to replace YOUR heart of STONE...that's information to the human race not just one or two or three humans, though certainly, I think that one or two humans, metaphorically speaking, have been and are being operated upon as God says, judgment on the house of God is now, for those who are His house.

The Spirit of God is our liberty in Christ which simply means we are all vessels holding the precious means to unite in harmony rather than stay in disharmony and separation, to the perfect will of God which is...which is...

...to have Sons and Daughters in his image...

...which is...which is....

...love...that doesn't exclude anyone but is inclusive of everyone...

Yet  hardened hearts, and refusal of  the gift of  is in sync to the design of God for our mortal bodies of hardened hearts seeking to be god in ways that suit  limited perceptions and ego preferences of limited thinking.  This is not stated to insult anyone as this is a process for everyone and all humans. Non get out of the process. Jesus was out, got back in through birth and showed us a thing or two through resurrection...

That  experience that is etched in the heart of Christ who's experience and heart contains us all.. and in whom we have our BEING....not of the flesh but of His Spirit and of His Faith.

Our being is not a puppet on a string, but a living breathing, thinking feeling consciousness contained in a limited, imperfect vessel of human conditioning.

We find great comfort to look past our imperfections. In fact, by contrast to looking for imperfections we find great peace to look above into the promise  where God has saved us all, right down to the last insane, fear driving maniac, despot. It is a test for sure.
We are purged in the bright fires of Gods BEING and God's immortal eternity through which He designs his kids to join Him as ONE. God will not be disappointed!

The way is inside not outside. It is within not without, and for sure David our brother said it in royal dialogue as and when he wrote...The Lord is my Sheppard and I shall NOT WANT...

The word WANT is entirely applicable to the human ego that wants more, more, more and more. It is the insatiable beast that drives the soul of mankind to the pits and in there, is the spark of God that shall save, defend and prosper against every weapon formed against us...but not before every weapon has been formed against us.

Mankind, humankind the 666, the homosapien, wants equality with God...okay...God suffered...He did. Ray highlights the fact. The Scriptures endorse it...We have to get past, overcome and rise up by the Power, Grace and Spirit of Father, into His Being that is within you and I and every fast asleep human being that is spiraling into a nightmare of death, pain and suffering. Death is sleep, Jesus said. God says wake up...but hey...it is God that does the waking up just as surely as it was He who woke Jesus up in the tomb where his body once lay.

Not by might but by His Spirit, is one of John of K's favorite Scriptures....No stone will be left unturned and no heart of stone will be left unturned either....All will be saved.

What has this got to do with free will and not getting it? Everything.

Are we not here to go through exactly what we are ordained to experience? Aren't we in the game plan, the stage of life, if you want to quote Shakespeare and our little act has been written? Behind the stage of life after the curtain has fallen upon our act, the behind the stage celebration and party afterwards is going to be a humdinger!

Can you get out of your life? No..not unless the script has written it.

Can you be someone else? No..not unless you have a part that says you have multiple personality disorder.

Can you choose your role in life? Not in this life. You get what you got!...and there is accountability..for sure there is....I just don't believe accountability is a big dark omen of agony that at first it may appear.

Did you agree to come into this dark, dungeon of a deep dark nightmare called the human condition...well...Jesus did...and He came as the much awaited Son of the Living God! So what's next?

Are we as Jesus is in this world...but not in the world to come...maybe...just until this act ends that is...when the Sons and Daughters of God are to be made manifest and the choirs of angels that are singing can be joined in the rapture of our souls in symphonic harmony in celebration of our Perfect Father and Son. "Rapture", being  a hijacked word, made captive and prisoner to Babylon that has another meaning that tells of bliss, joy, delight and all the whatsoever things are lovely, loveliness!

Enter Ray Smith...we wait in hushed abated breath for the blast of the Spirit of God to enter this room where the Disciples are gathered together to hear, feel and celebrate again, the insights of our Glorious Father God and Son!

The morning is coming. Everyone who are fast asleep, will wake up together. Those who are stirring and seeing Hope dawn, Peace approach and Love's assurance that no nightmare in human life, is bigger nor more Powerful than the Blazing Light of God who never sleeps, we are whispering towards that Light of the world, that we are.

There is nothing to believe, in this world. The light of our consciousness, alights this world in full Technicolor of a full blown dream from which we will all awake, into the Glory of God. Some will want to carry on dreaming and others with thank God they woke up....1st and 2nd Resurrection....

Now that my verbosity may have lulled a few of you reading this to sleep again...some might even have a headache looking for clues of heresy, but regardless if you think this says nothing and means less...thanks for listening...May we all have happy dreams and a happy awakening...into that Light in which abides no darkness, in assurance that He that is within you is greater...than all who are in the dark, or asleep! ~

With thanks to BTF for permitting this post on the board of General Discussion. This forum area DOES NOT necessarily represent the views of L. Ray Smith or Bible-Truths.com. 

Arc

[Dave in Tenn]

I reckon three pages is enough. 

Ian, I hope you got some answer worth hearing.