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Author Topic: Question about the flood and God's promise  (Read 3752 times)

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Cypress

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Question about the flood and God's promise
« on: August 17, 2011, 01:24:44 PM »

Hi all! I was wondering if I could ask a question. I’m kind of intimidated to ask a question and I hope I don’t come across as too ignorant hehe J. I’ve searched the forum for an answer, but didn’t really see any topics pertaining to this.
 
My beloved husband and I have listened to Ray’s audios regarding Noah’s flood; essentially, the flood being a localized event. Like many of you, we grew up being taught that the flood was worldwide and that all life was wiped out. We were talking about it one night after listening to one of the audios and were wondering just what God’s promise (the rainbow) meant if the flood was localized? We’re not trying to disprove anything, or contradict Ray, but we are looking for some insight. Local floods happen all the time, all around the world, and many villages and lives are lost. I don’t know the exact time of Noah’s flood, but (and I could be wrong) I would imagine there was animal life and people living in other parts of the planet by that point. So why was the flood local and what does God’s promise mean?
 
Elaine
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Elaine

mharrell08

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Re: Question about the flood and God's promise
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2011, 02:59:45 PM »

Hi all! I was wondering if I could ask a question. I’m kind of intimidated to ask a question and I hope I don’t come across as too ignorant hehe J. I’ve searched the forum for an answer, but didn’t really see any topics pertaining to this.
 
My beloved husband and I have listened to Ray’s audios regarding Noah’s flood; essentially, the flood being a localized event. Like many of you, we grew up being taught that the flood was worldwide and that all life was wiped out. We were talking about it one night after listening to one of the audios and were wondering just what God’s promise (the rainbow) meant if the flood was localized? We’re not trying to disprove anything, or contradict Ray, but we are looking for some insight. Local floods happen all the time, all around the world, and many villages and lives are lost. I don’t know the exact time of Noah’s flood, but (and I could be wrong) I would imagine there was animal life and people living in other parts of the planet by that point. So why was the flood local and what does God’s promise mean?
 
Elaine


Gen 8:20-21  And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again [H3254 - to add, to increase] curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again [H3254 - to add, to increase] smite any more every thing living, as I have done.


Hello Elaine,

I think this is one of those 'lost in translation' issues. The Lord said He would not increase the curse and smite brought upon man, as He had done in Noah's land. I believe this goes along with the scriptures which speaks of God 'framing evil' [Jer 18:11], which means to use evil in a certain capacity and not run rampant.

Floods, earthquakes, and other destruction will continue on this earth, but God has always 'framed' these evils to only cause destruction in the exact manner deemed, no more no less. As a painting is contained within it's frame, so too is all the earth's evil contained within the Will of God.


Hope this helps and great question by the way,

Marques
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Question about the flood and God's promise
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2011, 03:54:54 AM »

This scripture came to mind thinking about Marques' post:

Mat 6:34  Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Something about that word 'sufficient' that indicates to my mind "enough".  I'm not sure 'more than sufficient' is even possible.  It's kinda like saying 150%--it's cute, but without sound meaning.  I'm not sure 'less than sufficient' is possible either.

In any case, this is also a 'promise' of God.  I think it carries the same meaning as the rainbow.   
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

dave

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Re: Question about the flood and God's promise
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2011, 10:23:15 PM »

Hi all! I was wondering if I could ask a question. I’m kind of intimidated to ask a question and I hope I don’t come across as too ignorant hehe J. I’ve searched the forum for an answer, but didn’t really see any topics pertaining to this.
 
My beloved husband and I have listened to Ray’s audios regarding Noah’s flood; essentially, the flood being a localized event. Like many of you, we grew up being taught that the flood was worldwide and that all life was wiped out. We were talking about it one night after listening to one of the audios and were wondering just what God’s promise (the rainbow) meant if the flood was localized? We’re not trying to disprove anything, or contradict Ray, but we are looking for some insight. Local floods happen all the time, all around the world, and many villages and lives are lost. I don’t know the exact time of Noah’s flood, but (and I could be wrong) I would imagine there was animal life and people living in other parts of the planet by that point. So why was the flood local and what does God’s promise mean?
 
Elaine


Gen 8:20-21  And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again [H3254 - to add, to increase] curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again [H3254 - to add, to increase] smite any more every thing living, as I have done.


Hello Elaine,

I think this is one of those 'lost in translation' issues. The Lord said He would not increase the curse and smite brought upon man, as He had done in Noah's land. I believe this goes along with the scriptures which speaks of God 'framing evil' [Jer 18:11], which means to use evil in a certain capacity and not run rampant.

Floods, earthquakes, and other destruction will continue on this earth, but God has always 'framed' these evils to only cause destruction in the exact manner deemed, no more no less. As a painting is contained within it's frame, so too is all the earth's evil contained within the Will of God.


Hope this helps and great question by the way,

Marques

That was beautiful! Praise the Lord :)
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G. Driggs

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Re: Question about the flood and God's promise
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2011, 02:12:51 AM »

 Hi Elaine no need to be intimidated, we are only human. ;D Good question though, one I thought about often. After a couple days searching I found this from Ray.

http://www.bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm

RAINBOW COVENANT: Possibly the only truly unilateral covenant in the Bible, where absolutely no participation on our part is required for its fulfillment. Gen. 9:16,

        "And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting [Heb: olam aionion/eonian] covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth."

This covenant has no requirements on our part, but is it truly everlasting—endless?

When God is "All in all" (I Cor. 15:28), and there is "a NEW heaven and a NEW earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were PASSED AWAY; and there was no more sea [pretty hard to flood the entire earth without ANY SEA WATER]" (Rev. 21:1), and when God says, "Behold, I make ALL THINGS NEW…." (Rev. 21:5), perhaps even you can agree that this "rainbow covenant" will have come to an END, and then be of no consequence or have no application in a scriptural, heavenly realm.
-------

Can someone tell me if God saying He will never flood us again in Genesis and there being "no more sea" in Revelation are one in the same? As in there will never be carnal humans again when God is all in all? Cause that's what it seems like, but I'm not really sure.

G.Driggs
« Last Edit: August 20, 2011, 02:15:15 AM by G. Driggs »
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stanstillwhite

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Re: Question about the flood and God's promise
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2011, 03:34:30 AM »

Hey Cypress,
I see that your second question was answered above, but as to your first question.  The flood may have been local but it still killed everything that breathed air.  In Ray's paper given above, Ray points out that large parts of the world were uninhabitable.  The ice shield surrounding the earth gave way. 
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stanstillwhite

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Re: Question about the flood and God's promise
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2011, 04:33:58 AM »

Hey John,

Gen 6:17  And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

2Pe 2:5  And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

Sounds like everybody to me.  The water may not have covered up the mountains but everything breathing air still died.  With that kind of condensation you could drowned on dry land.  I'm a master diver.  I've seen water saturation tests.

And yes Dr. Ernest Martin does have a few ideas that he has no solid scripture for on this subject. Scientists always have their theories.  Good thing our salvation doesn't ride on this flood subject Hu? And yes, ELM did get a bit more literal than Ray. But just so you know, the people over there at ASKELM feel the same way about Martin as every one here feels about Ray.  Both Great Brothers...and Both working out what they believe.  Well not ELM, he died in 2002. He was a good friend of Ray's.

Stan
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Kat

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Re: Question about the flood and God's promise
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2011, 09:39:37 AM »


Hi Stan,

Maybe you are not familiar with what Ray has taught about the flood, he had a whole conference on it in 08. Once you look at what a worldwide flood would have entailed, along with much scientific evidence, you can see that there was no way that the flood was worldwide. Here are the audios to that conference and the transcripts.

2008 Nashville Conference
Saturday morning part #1: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession1.mp3
Saturday morning part #2: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession2.mp3
Saturday morning part #3: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession3.mp3
Saturday morning part #4: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession4.mp3
Saturday morning part #5: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession5.mp3
Saturday morning part #6: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession6.mp3
Saturday afternoon part #7: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession7.mp3
Sunday morning part #8A: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession8A.mp3
Sunday morning part #8B: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession8B.mp3
Sunday morning part #9: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession9.mp3
Sunday morning part #10: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession10.mp3

Transcripts to 08 Nashville Conference
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9502.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8385.0.html

That's fine that you have other sites to study with, but we ask that the things discussed here are from Scriptures and the Bible Truths site, with no outside teaching.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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JohnMichael

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Re: Question about the flood and God's promise
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2011, 11:13:17 AM »

Can someone tell me if God saying He will never flood us again in Genesis and there being "no more sea" in Revelation are one in the same? As in there will never be carnal humans again when God is all in all? Cause that's what it seems like, but I'm not really sure.

G.Driggs

Wow. That is a pretty awesome question, George. Seeing as the sea in Revelation is symbolic of carnal humanity, I didn't think it had anything to do with the Rainbow Covenant. I'm interested to hear the answer to this as well.

In Him,
John
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DougE6

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Re: Question about the flood and God's promise
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2011, 12:25:35 AM »

   The Flood of Noah was a Local flood that certainly could of been universal in impact in regards to ancient man. Please see the accompanying typographic relief map that illustrates how the the entire mideast is a bowl. The topography of the Mesopotamian region forms a huge U-shaped bowl that stretches 600 miles from the Persian Gulf to the northwest. Steep escarpments that rise quickly from less than 200 meters to 1,000 meters set boundaries for the Mesopotamian Plain on the north and the east. Terrain that rises gradually, but consistently, to heights above 400 meters forms the southern and western boundaries. Elevations above 400 meters fully contain the Mesopotamian Plain except where it meets the sea.

http://mapshop.atlogis.com/product_info.php/language/en/info/p3150_Irak-Reliefkarte.html

As for Noahs' point of view...The Genesis text does not specify the exact depth of the floodwaters. It states only that the ark floated up on the waters and that the nearby hills were so inundated that from Noah’s perspective the whole face of Earth was covered with water. That is, from one horizon to the other, all Noah could see was water.

An ark 450 feet long by 75 feet wide by 45 feet high, loaded with animals and supplies, probably needed a draft of at least 20 feet. If Noah stood on top of the ark, his eye level would have been approximately 30 feet above the waters (refraction corrections included). The water level horizon for him would have been about 8 miles away. Any hill more distant than about 15 miles, sticking up even a hundred feet or more above the water, would have been invisible. Hills higher than 500 feet and 1,000 feet above water level would have been beyond the possible view of Noah if they were more than 28 and 38 miles distant, respectively.

 The rate at which a 50-foot, 100-foot, or higher surge of water above the banks of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers would flow out to the Persian Gulf depends upon the slope of the land. From 400 miles northwest of Ur to Ur (the location of the Persian shore at the time of Noah), the Euphrates and Tigris rivers drop just 300 feet in elevation. This drop provides a grade of only about 0.01 percent. With that gentle a slope, the Flood waters would have moved very slowly out to the Persian Gulf. Moreover, for several months after the rain stopped, any water that exited to the Gulf would have been replaced with runoff from springs and melting snow on the distant mountains that surround the Mesopotamian Plain.

Genesis 8:1 states that God removed the floodwaters by sending a wind. Given the gentle slope of the land, evaporation plays a more significant role than gravity in removing the water. Such a scenario is consistent with the worst floods that have struck the Mississippi Valley, for example. The water rose 50 feet above the banks in those Mississippi floods and then it seemed to stand still.1 Residents of the region noticed little discernable movement. They had to wait for the waters to dry up.

Just how effective is evaporation for removing flood waters? During a typical Southern California summer the swimming pools lose an average of one inch of water per day to evaporation. Lower humidity, higher heat, and a strong wind can triple or quadruple that rate. Over the 335 days during which Noah’s Flood receded, that would add up to 84-112 feet of evaporation. If gravity had removed about half that much water, the total water depth removed would have been 126-168 feet. That is easily enough water to account for Noah’s seeing nothing but water for as far as his eyes could see. That is easily enough water to destroy all of Noah’s contemporaries and their animals outside the ark. And, that is easily enough water to carry the ark to the foothills of Ararat.
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Kat

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Re: Question about the flood and God's promise
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2011, 11:00:43 AM »


Thanks for the numbers Doug, that's gives a realistic picture of what may have actually transpired. Just adds more weight to the evidence that Ray gave about it being localized to that part of the world type flood.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Cypress

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Re: Question about the flood and God's promise
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2011, 10:09:51 PM »

Wow, thank you all so much for the responses. I am going to take this all in...definitely intrigued by Doug's post and the math and science involved. Just so amazing...
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Elaine

Cypress

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Re: Question about the flood and God's promise
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2011, 03:22:06 PM »

Hi Marques. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said it could be something lost in translation. I was looking at some sites and found something interesting about the Hebrew word Erets, which is what got translated as earth. I won't post any links, but I hope it's ok to share this:

We have been told in the biblical account that the flood would cover the "earth", that everything in the "earth" would die, and other statements about the "earth", all of which would teach the idea of a world-wide flood - EXCEPT for one thing: Hebrew word "erets", especially in the Book of Genesis. Its translated "earth" 665 times, "land" 1581 times, "country" 44 times, "ground" 119 times, "lands" 57 times, "countries", 15 times, and a few others. It seems that the “land” overflowed the “earth” in KJV (pun intended). Same thing with the “mountains” can be used as “hills” (#2022, har).

I don't know for sure if the number of times are correct, but I thought the various meanings and words were really interesting.
Hi all! I was wondering if I could ask a question. I’m kind of intimidated to ask a question and I hope I don’t come across as too ignorant hehe J. I’ve searched the forum for an answer, but didn’t really see any topics pertaining to this.
 
My beloved husband and I have listened to Ray’s audios regarding Noah’s flood; essentially, the flood being a localized event. Like many of you, we grew up being taught that the flood was worldwide and that all life was wiped out. We were talking about it one night after listening to one of the audios and were wondering just what God’s promise (the rainbow) meant if the flood was localized? We’re not trying to disprove anything, or contradict Ray, but we are looking for some insight. Local floods happen all the time, all around the world, and many villages and lives are lost. I don’t know the exact time of Noah’s flood, but (and I could be wrong) I would imagine there was animal life and people living in other parts of the planet by that point. So why was the flood local and what does God’s promise mean?
 
Elaine


Gen 8:20-21  And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again [H3254 - to add, to increase] curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again [H3254 - to add, to increase] smite any more every thing living, as I have done.


Hello Elaine,

I think this is one of those 'lost in translation' issues. The Lord said He would not increase the curse and smite brought upon man, as He had done in Noah's land. I believe this goes along with the scriptures which speaks of God 'framing evil' [Jer 18:11], which means to use evil in a certain capacity and not run rampant.

Floods, earthquakes, and other destruction will continue on this earth, but God has always 'framed' these evils to only cause destruction in the exact manner deemed, no more no less. As a painting is contained within it's frame, so too is all the earth's evil contained within the Will of God.


Hope this helps and great question by the way,

Marques
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 03:51:47 PM by Cypress »
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Elaine
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