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Author Topic: Liar and murderer  (Read 5557 times)

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dave

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Liar and murderer
« on: August 18, 2011, 03:25:49 AM »

Now I can see here in this verse Joh 8:44  Ye, are, of your father—the adversary, and, the covetings of your father, ye choose to be doing. He, was, a murderer, from the beginning, and, in the truth, he stood not; because truth is not in him: Whensoever he speaketh falsehood, of his own, he speaketh; because, false, he is, and, the father of it.
The adversary was a liar from the beginnnig Gen 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman,—Ye shall not die,
Okay theres the lie, but were is the murder? Unless one looks at that old serpent being the cause of adam to be dying, you shall die, is a murderer or man slayer.
The  only murder or man slayer I see is Gen 4:8 And saying is Cain to Abel, his brother, "Go will we to the field. And coming is it, at their coming to be in the field, rising is Cain against Abel, his brother, and killing him.
Are we saying then that it was the devil, the serpent got into Cain to make Cain murder/slay his brother?
I wonder about this stuff. It shows plainly the lie, but the murder is murky for me. Can somebody have any thoughts?
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JohnMichael

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Re: Liar and murderer
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2011, 11:34:45 AM »

Hi Micah,

One can be a murderer without ever physically touching someone. That's the key. One has to stop looking always toward the physical for an answer.

1Jn 3:15  Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1Jn 4:20  If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
 
Pro 26:24  He that hateth dissembleth with his lips, and layeth up deceit within him;
Pro 26:25  When he speaketh fair, believe him not: for there are seven abominations in his heart.
Pro 26:26  Whose hatred is covered by deceit, his wickedness shall be shewed before the whole congregation.
Pro 26:27  Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein: and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him.
Pro 26:28  A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it; and a flattering mouth worketh ruin.

Mat 5:28  But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

[I'm sure the Lord didn't limit this principle to just adultery.]

Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

------------------------------------
Descriptions for Satan:

   the serpent who tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:4 & Genesis 3:14)
   Satan (1 Chronicles 21:1)
   the adversary playing the role of prosecuting attorney in a heavenly court with God and the angels (Job 1:6 & Zechariah 3:1-2 & 1 Peter 5:8..)
   as the devil (from the Greek "diabolos" which means "slanderer"), the tempter of Jesus (Matthew 4:1-3, Luke 4:2)
   the prince of the demons, Beelzebub (Matthew 12:24, Mark 3:22, Luke 11:15)
   unclean spirit (Matthew 12:43)
   the evil one (Matthew 13:19 & 1 John 2:13)
   a murderer and the father of lies (John 8:44)
   the prince of this world (John 12:31 & 14:30 & 16:11)
   a demon able to enter into a human body (John 13:27)
   god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4)
   Belial (2 Corinthians 6:15)
   prince of the powers of the air, the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience (Ephesians 2:2)
   power of darkness (Colossians 1:13)
   an adversary, like a roaring lion who walks about seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8..)
   the angel of the abyss, named Abaddon in Hebrew, Apollyon in Greek (Revelation 9:11) [Both mean Destroyer]
   a great red dragon (Revelation 12:3 & 12:9 & 20:2)
   the accuser of our brethren who accuses Christians before God day and night (Revelation 12:10)
   the dragon, the old serpent (Revelation 20:2)

Would one say that Satan loves anything by looking at that list? He is the destroyer. He is carnal. He hates. What do the Scriptures say about hate? What is God really concerned with: the physical, or the heart?

In Him,
John

« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 11:48:55 AM by JohnMichael »
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Samson

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Re: Liar and murderer
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2011, 12:01:58 PM »

Now I can see here in this verse Joh 8:44  Ye, are, of your father—the adversary, and, the covetings of your father, ye choose to be doing. He, was, a murderer, from the beginning, and, in the truth, he stood not; because truth is not in him: Whensoever he speaketh falsehood, of his own, he speaketh; because, false, he is, and, the father of it.
The adversary was a liar from the beginnnig Gen 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman,—Ye shall not die,
Okay theres the lie, but were is the murder? Unless one looks at that old serpent being the cause of adam to be dying, you shall die, is a murderer or man slayer.
The  only murder or man slayer I see is Gen 4:8 And saying is Cain to Abel, his brother, "Go will we to the field. And coming is it, at their coming to be in the field, rising is Cain against Abel, his brother, and killing him.
Are we saying then that it was the devil, the serpent got into Cain to make Cain murder/slay his brother?
I wonder about this stuff. It shows plainly the lie, but the murder is murky for me. Can somebody have any thoughts?



Hi Micah,

Although, Satan didn't directly Murder Adam & Eve, His Lie or Deception lead to their Death, because God told them that the Day that they would eat of the fruit, they would die. They(Adam & Eve) didn't actually die that 24 day in which they ate the forbidden fruit, but the physical process of dying began the moment they ate the fruit & disobeyed God.

A True Statement from God: Gen 2:17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

A False Statement from the Serpent: Gen 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

A Statement from the Serpent(Satan) that has Truth, but He(Satan) mixed some Truth with Deception, something We often witness from Our fellow Humans: Gen 3:5  For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Humans are supposed to learn about Good and Evil, but not the entire knowledge of it, at that very moment & We won't become partakers of Divine Nature being One with God right away. It's a process and certainly Adam & Eve would not be One with God in their Lifetime. Although, they did begin to learn about good & evil and to experience it for the rest of their lives.

Sometimes, when someone tells a lie or attempts to deceive someone else, somewhere down the line it can lead to a death.

If you break any of God's Commandments like Lying or Deception, Your guilty of All, including Murder. Satan was trying to deceive Eve, He gave Her a false witness by mixing some elements of truth with falsehood thereby causing them to disobey God culminating in their eventual death.

                          Kind Regards, Samson.
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Kat

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Re: Liar and murderer
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2011, 12:25:18 PM »


Hi micah7:9,

Quote
Gen 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman,—Ye shall not die,
Okay theres the lie, but were is the murder?


http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html -------------------------------------

You are of your FATHER the DEVIL [the GREAT DRAGON, OLD SERPENT, the DEVIL, and SATAN {Hebrew for Adversary -- I Pet. 5:8} Rev. 12:9], and the lusts of your father ye will do... He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth [from the beginning], because there is no truth in him [from the beginning]. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar [from the beginning], and the father [the beginner] of it" (John 8:44).

"Now the SERPENT was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD GOD had MADE..." (Gen. 3:1) God "made" this serpent which TALKED with Eve as an articulate, intelligent creature. Satan did not possess this serpent of the field, Satan was this serpent! Satan doesn’t possess snakes! Satan himself was CREATED A SERPENT. Even Paul acknowledges that it was "the SERPENT" that deluded Eve, and not some other creature possessing a snake (II Cor. 11:3).
v
Snakes do not "eat dust" but Satan dines on mankind "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour [Greek: (lit. or fig.) gulp entirely, swallow up] I Pet. 5:08). And he seeks to devour mankind who are "dust" of the earth ("...for dust thou art...." Gen. 3:19).


http://bible-truths.com/email12.htm --------------------------------

"And when the woman [1] SAW THAT THE TREE WAS GOOD FOR FOOD [lust of the flesh], and that it was [2] PLEASANT TO THE EYES [lust of the eyes], and a tree to be [3] DESIRED TO MAKE ONE WISE [pride of life], she TOOK [stole, disobeyed, lusted after the flesh, put an idol before God, worshiped her own presumed but false goodness, helped cause her husband to sin, hid themselves, LIED to God about it, tried to pass the buck and blame others for their sin, etc., etc., etc., and a dozen other sins] of the fruit thereof, and did eat..." (Gen. 3:6).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Murder - the crime of unlawfully killing a person esp. with malice aforethought.

So Eve already had all the lusts of the world within her carnal flesh, like we all do, all she needed was a push in the right direction and that is where Satan came in. "The woman being DECIEVED" (1Ti 2:14), she was "dust" before the devourer/Satan and he had her for lunch, so to speak. This was the action as well as the "malice aforethought" that made Satan a "murderer from the beginning."

Quote
The  only murder or man slayer I see is Gen 4:8 And saying is Cain to Abel, his brother, "Go will we to the field. And coming is it, at their coming to be in the field, rising is Cain against Abel, his brother, and killing him.
Are we saying then that it was the devil, the serpent got into Cain to make Cain murder/slay his brother?

Luk 22:31  And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has desired you, that he may sift you as wheat.

Satan as a spiritual being that 'talks' to the minds of mankind, seducing and deceiving us with lies, so that he may sift/devour/destroy us and as with Eve he got Cain as well.

1John 3:12  We should not be like Cain, who was of the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother's righteous.

Eph 6:12  For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

We are in spiritual warfare and the world hasn't got a chance up against this great deciever, but we who have the Spirit indwelling can resist Satan and not be fearful of him.

1John 5:18  We have known that every one who hath been begotten of God doth not sin, but he who was begotten of God doth keep himself, and the evil one doth not touch him;

James 4:7  Therefore submit yourselves to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 12:28:36 PM by Kat »
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dave

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Re: Liar and murderer
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2011, 01:36:37 PM »

First I was reading that very articial by Ray when this came to me. I had and am still considering "Although, Satan didn't directly Murder Adam & Eve,"
1Jn 3:15  Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer:
"One can be a murderer without ever physically touching someone. That's the key."

So, the lie is a direct and visible trait of the serpent, but the murderer part is a kind of, you have to have a spiritual understanding? Is that correct?
When Cain slew/killed,murdered, homicide,a manslayer: - murderer. That was out and out murder and Abel was dead[dead] then at that moment in time, not so with Adam/mankind.
Should your replies be the answer then I knew the answer all along; but it just seems to me(and I am not trying to kick up dust) that when Ray explains what he teaches its usually pretty complete, no lose ends. Here I am left with a revealing literal answer the lie " you wont die" and a murky spiritual answer for the "murder."

This only makes me to consider even more that when I read this word in Genesis that it is more of a parable
or even an allegory. Perhaps I will just stay with what you folks posted, that's where I was before I posted my question. Peace and Love :)
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Kat

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Re: Liar and murderer
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2011, 05:06:23 PM »


Hi micah7:9,

Quote
So, the lie is a direct and visible trait of the serpent, but the murderer part is a kind of, you have to have a spiritual understanding? Is that correct?

Well consider that Satan is a spirit being and he can not physically kill a person directly. It is through his influence that he devours/destroys/kills.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Craig

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Re: Liar and murderer
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2011, 05:52:32 PM »

Consider Job, it appears Satan can control the winds and killed Jobs family?

Craig
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dave

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Re: Liar and murderer
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2011, 06:03:52 PM »

I understand. My whole point in the question was the "liar" from the beginning is, there in your face, no ifs or buts. Its the murderer by definition [man-slayer homicide] I am not seeing from the beginning. Now I can see Cain as a murderer from the beginning, is there any relation in the "nature" of Cain, the serpent, and "of the your father?"

I guess I will put it aside and accept the CLV I believe it reads the best for understanding my question.

Joh 8:44 You are of your father, the Adversary, and the desires of your father you are wanting to do. He was a man-killer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, for truth is not in him. Whenever he may be speaking a lie, he is speaking of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it."

Thanks.   Peace and Love Through Jesus
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Joel

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Re: Liar and murderer
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2011, 11:41:25 PM »

Who do we resemble more in our every day lives?
We are confined to these fleshly bodies, and as Ray said the devil wants to eat us for lunch. (our dust)

   God (Spirit)                      Satan (uses works of the flesh)
Love                                adultery              wrath
Joy                                  fornication           strife
Peace                              uncleanness        seditions
Longsuffering                   lasciviousness      heresies
Gentleness                      idolatry             envying
Goodness                        witchcraft            murders
Faith                              hatred                 drunkenness
Meekness                       variance               revellings
Temperance                    emulations           and such like

Satan does know Truth, he quoted scripture to Jesus in the wilderness, but always has HIS motives when he comes to steal, kill, and to destroy. "fall down and worship me."
Who did Job resemble more? Who did Cain take after?

Joel
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DougE6

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Re: Liar and murderer
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2011, 12:25:39 AM »

Quote
Actually, God took the lives of Job's children Satan was just a stooge who God used to bring the evil on Job


If Satan was just a "stooge" then why did God create him in the first place? A stooge? How about a waster to destroy.

Why have a go between?  Why did God make a go between, if He wanted people to make statements such as you just said in the box above?

Quote
"...the LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD

This is a wonderful statement and I agree with wholeheartedly. I like that one. I really don't like yours. I am really sorry to say that, but I think there is an important distinction here. Just because God is responsible, He made sure He was not the one directly doing it, and He made the the waster to destroy.  God may have goaded Satan, certainly, and set the parameters, yes, but Satan did it. I think there is some serious understanding God wanted us to get that God put distance between the committing of evil and Himself, that your direct statements really erase, John.
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dave

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Re: Liar and murderer
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2011, 01:20:26 AM »

I understand the adversary as the principal spirit that God created to carry out the evil that man, THROUGH
Jesus Christ must and will overcome.     Like what we call, "a necessary evil."
But that's just me.
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JohnMichael

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Re: Liar and murderer
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2011, 02:12:22 AM »

Quote
Actually, God took the lives of Job's children Satan was just a stooge who God used to bring the evil on Job


If Satan was just a "stooge" then why did God create him in the first place? A stooge? How about a waster to destroy.

Why have a go between?  Why did God make a go between, if He wanted people to make statements such as you just said in the box above?

Quote
"...the LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD

This is a wonderful statement and I agree with wholeheartedly. I like that one. I really don't like yours. I am really sorry to say that, but I think there is an important distinction here. Just because God is responsible, He made sure He was not the one directly doing it, and He made the the waster to destroy.  God may have goaded Satan, certainly, and set the parameters, yes, but Satan did it. I think there is some serious understanding God wanted us to get that God put distance between the committing of evil and Himself, that your direct statements really erase, John.

Stooge: any underling, assistant, or accomplice

Is Satan an underling to God? Certainly. He is subject to God's Sovereignty. Does he assist God in God's plan? Yes, though he doesn't do it with a desire to do so. He sole desire is to destroy. His actions are perfectly in line with God's purpose/will.

God uses, and has no problem using, evil in order to teach mankind humility.

Ecc 1:13  And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail [Hebrew: Evil affair, business] hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised [Hebrew: Humbled, Browbeaten] therewith.
Ecc 3:10  I have seen the travail [Hebrew: affair, business], which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised [Hebrew: humbled, browbeaten] in it.

Isa 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these

Jer 13:16  Give glory to the LORD your God, before he cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, and make it gross darkness.

Nah 1:8  But with an overrunning flood he will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.

Job 2:10  But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

God does not "need" Satan to do anything, even evil. God is more than capable, and readily able, to place evil in a person's life for His purpose. God's purpose includes Satan. Will we question why God does the things He does when we only understand in part?

For example, who struck Ananias and Sapphira dead?

You both are saying the same thing, just differently. :)

In Him,
John
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DougE6

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Re: Liar and murderer
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2011, 11:13:13 AM »


Satan is going to spend an age or more in the Lake of Fire. He will be giving an extensive account. He will be brought to repentance. I think we really have to be careful with our language here. I really do. It makes it sound like Satan has no explaining to do at all, when one continually makes statements that directly say that God did it. No Satan did it, voluntarily, and God did not put a gun to his head, to make it happen. There are real deep things He in how this all works that we do not fully understand, but just like when I do a wrong, my conscience is wounded, and I feel utterly miserable. When I sin, God did not do it. I did it. Considering the circumstances, it may have been a LOCK that I would do what I did. Granted. But I still sinned voluntarily. I don't like the implication that God is a sinner. I know that is not what John is meaning to say.

Of course GOD uses evil. ANd YET He never sins in doing so. And when Satan uses evil he is committing a grave sin. It matters not that God is steering all things according to the counsel of His will, and that all that happens, must happen. There are two categories, sinners, and God. I do not like language which tends to confuse the two. I think that is the root of my objections. That is why the Bible describes God in these matters as the Ultimate Causer, but names the perpetrators of these sins according to those which actually COMMITTED the sins. Satan sinned when attacking Job. he sinned to attempt to show God up, he sinned by hurting Job without cause. Even though God brought deep spiritual lessons out of that transaction, and God DID pick the fight, it was Satan who voluntarily and with malice and evil intent went after Job. God had NO malice towards Job whatsoever. That is why God does not do these things directly, (except when in judgement, like Ananias and Sapphira, and then there is NO malice either, ever, in God's heart.  God uses judgement for the ultimate good and restoration of the judged).  The malice in Satans heart brought up the things that satan asked God if he could do to Job. God gave Him permission to do so, already knowing what Satan would do, and ask. But because God's motives are so MUCH different than Satans, I will confine my speech to labeling the direct agent as the doer, and God as the Causer.  I will be very circumspect about saying GOD did this, except when my audience is very clear that God is not a sinner, knows EXACTLY that I mean CAUSER and STEERER, nor has He sinned, in doing this, whatever it may be.  God leaves the commission of things that result in sins to others, not Himself.
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JohnMichael

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Re: Liar and murderer
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2011, 12:47:48 PM »

Quote
I will be very circumspect about saying GOD did this, except when my audience is very clear that God is not a sinner, knows EXACTLY that I mean CAUSER and STEERER, nor has He sinned, in doing this, whatever it may be.  God leaves the commission of things that result in sins to others, not Himself.

No problem, Doug. None of us would dare implicate or insinuate that God is a sinner. I think a misunderstanding took place here. :) We are referring to God being the cause. When John said God has killed every person who ever lived, he is right. Every person, before being born, was appointed a day to die by God. God provides the causes. I wouldn't dream (by the grace of God) of claiming God was a sinner - that's blasphemy in my book.

John
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stanstillwhite

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Re: Liar and murderer
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2011, 02:16:18 PM »

Wow, some great stuff being said here!  I just wanted to point out to Samsun that Adam did die the very day that he sinned in God's perception. If we remember that one day to the Lord is as a thousand years....  God has let no man live a full day in His eyes. The record...969.

Blessing
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mharrell08

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Re: Liar and murderer
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2011, 03:47:06 PM »

Excerpt from Lake of Fire series Part 15-C (http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html):

GOD CAUSES EVIL IN THE CITY

Let’s take a close look at that last Scripture in our list:

    “…shall there be evil [Heb: ra—‘bad, evil’] in a city, and the Lord has not done it? (Amos 3:6)

There’s the question; what’s the answer? The answer from all Christendom is “Yes.” “Yes” there shall be all kinds of evil in a city, and the Lord has not done it. In fact, according to their teaching, the Lord does no evil in any city, ever. World famous teacher/preacher/theologian/author, Billy Graham said before a packed house in the National Cathedral, that GOD DOES    NOT CREATE EVIL.  But what saith the Scriptures (Amos 3:4-6):

    “Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"

Answer: NO!

    “Will a lion roar in the forest, when he has not prey?"

Answer: NO!

    “Will a young lion cry out of his den, if he have taken nothing?"

Answer: NO!

    “Can a bird fall in a snare upon the earth, where no gin [baited trap] is for him?"

Answer: NO!

    “Shall one take up a snare [shall a snare spring up] from the earth, and have taken [caught] nothing at all?"

Answer: NO!

        “Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid?"

Answer: NO!

    “Shall there be EVIL in a city and the LORD HAS NOT DONE IT?"

Answer: NO!

The Answer is “NO”!

I am now speaking to the mature only. This information is too heavy, too hard, too overwhelming for the carnal-minded person.   Have you ever wondered just where it is that the proverbial “rubber meets the road?” Well, right here is where the rubber meets the road. If you don’t accept; if you cannot accept, if you will not accept the truth of all these double-witness Scriptures presented above, then you will never understand God’s plan of salvation for the human race.


Seven times in Amos 3 God asks us a question, and SEVEN TIMES THE ANSWER IS “NO”! NO, there shall not be EVIL in a city [any city—all cities] unless THE LORD HAS DONE IT! The truth of this Scripture (along with hundreds and hundreds like it) is so powerful, so absolutely earth-shattering, that the mere fact of me quoting it and suggesting that it is a true statement, will evoke hate mail from far and wide.

The world of Christendom will not tolerate, anyone quoting these Scriptures and then teaching that they are true and factual as to the character of our Great Creator God. They do not approve of God “creating” evil, nor do they approve of God “using” evil—even if God’s use of evil always eventuates in the GREATEST POSSIBLE ETERNAL GOOD.



I think many of us have to remember 'why' this forum exists and what brought us here. It's to discuss the articles on bible-truths, not preach/teach our own beliefs. That's what causes all the infighting and friction.

We all need to really get back to reading and studying and making sure we agree. A member may realize that they don't necessarily agree with all of Ray's teaching, but at least they can be aware and avoid the issue on the forum. I understand we may not see eye to eye on every aspect in the bible, but no more arguing with what is blatantly taught on bible truths. If you don't agree with a teaching, either avoid the subject or move on.


Marques
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believerchrist100

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Re: Liar and murderer
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2011, 05:28:25 PM »

Excerpt from Lake of Fire series Part 15-C (http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html):

GOD CAUSES EVIL IN THE CITY

Let’s take a close look at that last Scripture in our list:

    “…shall there be evil [Heb: ra—‘bad, evil’] in a city, and the Lord has not done it? (Amos 3:6)

There’s the question; what’s the answer? The answer from all Christendom is “Yes.” “Yes” there shall be all kinds of evil in a city, and the Lord has not done it. In fact, according to their teaching, the Lord does no evil in any city, ever. World famous teacher/preacher/theologian/author, Billy Graham said before a packed house in the National Cathedral, that GOD DOES    NOT CREATE EVIL.  But what saith the Scriptures (Amos 3:4-6):

    “Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"

Answer: NO!

    “Will a lion roar in the forest, when he has not prey?"

Answer: NO!

    “Will a young lion cry out of his den, if he have taken nothing?"

Answer: NO!

    “Can a bird fall in a snare upon the earth, where no gin [baited trap] is for him?"

Answer: NO!

    “Shall one take up a snare [shall a snare spring up] from the earth, and have taken [caught] nothing at all?"

Answer: NO!

        “Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid?"

Answer: NO!

    “Shall there be EVIL in a city and the LORD HAS NOT DONE IT?"

Answer: NO!

The Answer is “NO”!

I am now speaking to the mature only. This information is too heavy, too hard, too overwhelming for the carnal-minded person.   Have you ever wondered just where it is that the proverbial “rubber meets the road?” Well, right here is where the rubber meets the road. If you don’t accept; if you cannot accept, if you will not accept the truth of all these double-witness Scriptures presented above, then you will never understand God’s plan of salvation for the human race.


Seven times in Amos 3 God asks us a question, and SEVEN TIMES THE ANSWER IS “NO”! NO, there shall not be EVIL in a city [any city—all cities] unless THE LORD HAS DONE IT! The truth of this Scripture (along with hundreds and hundreds like it) is so powerful, so absolutely earth-shattering, that the mere fact of me quoting it and suggesting that it is a true statement, will evoke hate mail from far and wide.

The world of Christendom will not tolerate, anyone quoting these Scriptures and then teaching that they are true and factual as to the character of our Great Creator God. They do not approve of God “creating” evil, nor do they approve of God “using” evil—even if God’s use of evil always eventuates in the GREATEST POSSIBLE ETERNAL GOOD.



I think many of us have to remember 'why' this forum exists and what brought us here. It's to discuss the articles on bible-truths, not preach/teach our own beliefs. That's what causes all the infighting and friction.

We all need to really get back to reading and studying and making sure we agree. A member may realize that they don't necessarily agree with all of Ray's teaching, but at least they can be aware and avoid the issue on the forum. I understand we may not see eye to eye on every aspect in the bible, but no more arguing with what is blatantly taught on bible truths. If you don't agree with a teaching, either avoid the subject or move on.


Marques

Agreed Marques. Also, here's an excerpt from the Mobile 2006 Conference in the talk about "humilty" (Ray has said something like this in many talks, but here's just one example of where he does; just to emphasize the point.


God doesn’t have to force people to become criminals. For example He doesn’t make people, they say, ‘so everything’s of God?’ Yes it is, the whole creation is of God. He made mankind SPIRITUALLY WEAK, so that whenever he encounters temptation, he sins. God doesn’t make them sin, they volunteer.

God doesn’t make dirty old men rape little girls, no. He doesn’t make them, He doesn’t force them, they volunteer. They do it from the heart. But you say, ‘it is all of God?’ Yes, God created the human race and He put in that weakness and that lust… where do you think testosterone comes from, do you think it evolved from sea slime from evolutionary progress?


Patrick
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DougE6

  • Guest
Re: Liar and murderer
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2011, 12:52:37 PM »


If one was to ask Ray when someone rapes little girls, which of the two statements most closely mirror your thinking? How would you characterize what happened?

1.  That crime is of God, as all things that happen are of God.

2.  God did it.

I would bet $1000 that Ray would say, #1. he would NOT say "God did it" He would say "the rotten despicable jerk actually did it".  Someone ask him this, and I will contribute to him the $1000 when he answers. Even if I am wrong I will still donate.

My final post on this matter. OK can we all be happy now?  :)

Doug
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longhorn

  • Guest
Re: Liar and murderer
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2011, 08:41:32 PM »

My head just exploded.

Longhorn
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markn902

  • Guest
Re: Liar and murderer
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2011, 02:57:13 AM »

Just a thought here..but could "he was a mankiller and liar from the beginning (paraphrasing) imply that that was what he was created for?
From the beginning..meaning his start.. was and is to be a mankiller, liar, adversary etc.. in this age anyway

idk just a thought

Mark
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