Luke 23:34 - Ray's comments added, last post

[G. Driggs]

My friend, I do not have a problem with you.  Nor with the Word of God.  I do believe that mankind will be held accountable for our actions.  I do not believe that the world is on any permanent "hook".  Jesus is our Savior.  He lets everyone off the "hook" after a period of judgment.  Everyone gets saved.

As to the Father taking Jesus' life.  Do you not realize that the Scriptures you quoted above, Acts 4:26-28, says that very thing?  It was the Father's Hand and Counsel that determined what happened to Jesus.  The same Hand and Counsel that determines what happens to us.  No one can take anything out of His Hands.

Did you not notice I agreed with you that God was responsible? My point was that we are accountable.

Please do not put words like "permanent hook" in my mouth, I never said that. Also please stop lumping me (and Ray) in with "Christian ministers and priests". This is not the first time you have said that to me after repeating what I have learned here.

Everything I have said to you I learned from Ray. I believe them because the grace of God caused me to study them, test the spirits and found them to be true.

Give me a little credit, your not the only one who believes God is sovereign. You just don't seem to understand exactly how He exercises His sovereignty. Quite often He does it through putting us in circumstances where He knows we will do what we naturally and voluntarily want to do. That is how (to me) all is of God, and that is how we are accountable, because we wanted to do it. All we needed was the opportunity, which is the circumstances God put us in.

This has been very hard for me to wrap my head around. I've often asked God the same question the Romans asked the apostle Paul.

Rom 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will [Greek:intention]?

I did not want to be accountable after realizing God is the cause of all the evil I've experienced. I was very mad and still get mad at Him sometimes. One of the only things  that keeps me going is the belief God does all that He does for my ultimate good, even if it hurts like hell.

Well, well, well.  Maybe old Tischendorf and the Sinaiticus manuscript were right after all?  Maybe Luke 23:34 is spurious.  Why would Jesus ask the Father to forgive the evil men who killed Him when Jesus knew it was the Father behind it all?

How convenient of you to suddenly change your beliefs. You dont need no man to teach you, study for yourself and be convinced in your own mind.

I'm done here. Anything else you wanna say to me send me a pm.

Peace "bro"

G.Driggs

[John from Kentucky]

My friend, I do not have a problem with you.  Nor with the Word of God.  I do believe that mankind will be held accountable for our actions.  I do not believe that the world is on any permanent "hook".  Jesus is our Savior.  He lets everyone off the "hook" after a period of judgment.  Everyone gets saved.

As to the Father taking Jesus' life.  Do you not realize that the Scriptures you quoted above, Acts 4:26-28, says that very thing?  It was the Father's Hand and Counsel that determined what happened to Jesus.  The same Hand and Counsel that determines what happens to us.  No one can take anything out of His Hands.

Did you not notice I agreed with you that God was responsible? My point was that we are accountable.

Please do not put words like "permanent hook" in my mouth, I never said that. Also please stop lumping me (and Ray) in with "Christian ministers and priests". This is not the first time you have said that to me after repeating what I have learned here.

Everything I have said to you I learned from Ray. I believe them because the grace of God caused me to study them, test the spirits and found them to be true.

Give me a little credit, your not the only one who believes God is sovereign. You just don't seem to understand exactly how He exercises His sovereignty. Quite often He does it through putting us in circumstances where He knows we will do what we naturally and voluntarily want to do. That is how (to me) all is of God, and that is how we are accountable, because we wanted to do it. All we needed was the opportunity, which is the circumstances God put us in.

This has been very hard for me to wrap my head around. I've often asked God the same question the Romans asked the apostle Paul.

Rom 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will [Greek:intention]?

I did not want to be accountable after realizing God is the cause of all the evil I've experienced. I was very mad and still get mad at Him sometimes. One of the only things  that keeps me going is the belief God does all that He does for my ultimate good, even if it hurts like hell.

Well, well, well.  Maybe old Tischendorf and the Sinaiticus manuscript were right after all?  Maybe Luke 23:34 is spurious.  Why would Jesus ask the Father to forgive the evil men who killed Him when Jesus knew it was the Father behind it all?

How convenient of you to suddenly change your beliefs. You dont need no man to teach you, study for yourself and be convinced in your own mind.

I'm done here. Anything else you wanna say to me send me a pm.

Peace "bro"

G.Driggs

Sorry I offended you.  I'm like a kidney stone.  Sometimes I'm hard to pass.

[Marky Mark]

John, you seem to think that you have no part in the outcome of how God is working through you. Is God repenting for you of your sins or do you have some type of accountability in what choices you make? All of us here know that the Father is in total control of His creation[no free will],but does that also mean that you have no part in His plan and purpose concerning your own life?

One can easily fall back and rest on one's laurels and just say "what the heck,God is responsible for everything and what I do has no matter in the situation" or we can be pro-active in our own lives and seek Spiritual things on a Spiritual level,getting beyond the things of the flesh. Just because the Father predestined what the outcome of His creation is does not take away anything of what your part is.

By not answering my questions...

So then are you saying that you are free from any sin concerning the death of Jesus?

and

When you live outside the Word of God would you not say that would be the same as killing him,Spiritualy speaking?

your spirit of denial is apparent and that is totally ok. God has you at this moment in time exactly where you need to be and its all right to be in that condition. All really is of God.

If we do not see every word of Scripture to be seen,heard, and lived with Spiritual eyes [within ourselves],for our own admonition, then judgement within has not yet begun.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Rev 11:7  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Mat 26:56  But all this has taken place in order that the writings of the Prophets may be fulfilled." At this point the disciples all left Him and fled.

Mar 14:50  Then all the disciples abandoned Him and ran away.



Peace...Mark

[John from Kentucky]

John, you seem to think that you have no part in the outcome of how God is working through you. Is God repenting for you of your sins or do you have some type of accountability in what choices you make? All of us here know that the Father is in total control of His creation[no free will],but does that also mean that you have no part in His plan and purpose concerning your own life?

One can easily fall back and rest on one's laurels and just say "what the heck,God is responsible for everything and what I do has no matter in the situation" or we can be pro-active in our own lives and seek Spiritual things on a Spiritual level,getting beyond the things of the flesh. Just because the Father predestined what the outcome of His creation is does not take away anything of what your part is.

By not answering my questions...

So then are you saying that you are free from any sin concerning the death of Jesus?

and

When you live outside the Word of God would you not say that would be the same as killing him,Spiritualy speaking?

your spirit of denial is apparent and that is totally ok. God has you at this moment in time exactly where you need to be and its all right to be in that condition. All really is of God.

If we do not see every word of Scripture to be seen,heard, and lived with Spiritual eyes [within ourselves],for our own admonition, then judgement within has not yet begun.

Mat 24:15  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Rev 11:7  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Mat 26:56  But all this has taken place in order that the writings of the Prophets may be fulfilled." At this point the disciples all left Him and fled.

Mar 14:50  Then all the disciples abandoned Him and ran away.



Peace...Mark

Spare me the sermon and judgment.  I could go to any church in my city tonight and get the same christian nonsense.

I didn't answer your questions because I don't want to argue.  I get bored easily.

But you need to hear and understand something.  The Father is totally sovereign in everything.  Everything!  Speaking for myself, there is absolutely no good in me whatsoever.  Everything I now am, everything I will be, it all comes from the Father.  All.  Both the desire and will to do good, and any good actions that I do, it is all from the Spirit of the Father and Jesus (same spirit) within me.  I can of my own self do nothing.  My fingers typing on this keyboard is from God as is the next second of my life, if He so decides.

I now know that all who teach and believe what I just said will suffer persecution and resentment.  Why would that be?  Because the Beast within doesn't want to die.  Free will keeps it alive.  Many here will claim they believe in the sovereignty of God, but deep down, deep down, they cling to the false idea that they can do good.  That they are in control.  That God must reward them for the "good" that they do.  It keeps the Beast within them alive.

If what I just said causes a twinge within you or resentment, then understand it is not from me.  I am insignificant and of no importance.  Who am I?  Look within yourself and ask the Spirit of God to judge your heart.

Now my sermon is over.  I guess we're even.     

[DougE6]

Many here will claim they believe in the sovereignty of God, but deep down, deep down, they cling to the false idea that they can do good.  That they are in control.  That God must reward them for the "good" that they do.  It keeps the Beast within them alive.

Thats quite a judgement to make.  Do you really know for sure that that judgement is true?

Look within yourself and ask the Spirit of God to judge your heart.

can you explain how you judge your heart, if you believe as you do? If every thought, action, and deed, that you commit, are ALL the direct act of the Father, then how do you judge your thoughts actions and heart? Are you not merely just judging what God is doing? Are you really judging yourself?

Is it ONLY just about coming to the realization that you yourself can do nothing? Is that the whole crux of it all? Is the entire point of this that whatever you think, do, and feel, if we come to the realization that God is actually the ONE DOING it all, that is REALLY the ONLY iimportant point? So if I commit a sin, as long as I realize that I am helpless before what God has decided that I would be doing at that time, as long as I realize that, that is the only spiritual point that matters? Is that what you are saying?

And I really was waiting for your answer concerning

So then are you saying that you are free from any sin concerning the death of Jesus?

That is a HUGE question. it is not worth a demeaning dodge like,

I didn't answer your questions because I don't want to argue.  I get bored easily

[DougE6]

Because the Beast within doesn't want to die.  Free will keeps it alive.

So, John, is your beast dead?  is your only reason for believing that your beast is dead, is that really really believe you simply are 100% along for the ride, and now that you are, because you are willing to attribute 100% of every one of your thoughts and actions to God the Father directly, so NOW you claim your beast is dead? Just believing that (extreme IMHO) kills the beast? Based on that alone? Is that what the doctrine of No free will really means to you?

Now the following questions are rhetorical to everyone. What about crucifying your flesh? Have you crucified your flesh of its carnal passions and desires? To me, a CLEAN thought life and CLEAN heart and godly and Christ honoring actions would be more an indicator that your beast is dead. If I am doing Christs works, and thinking Christs thoughts, then I believe my beast is dead. Would God really say that your beast is dead if your heart is full of lust, adulteries, lies, coveting, and all the other millions of sins? Are you really are you are putting all others before yourself, even loving your enemies, then I would say your beast is dead. Just because you are at peace in your own soul because you believe that all your actions and thoughts are completely the direct acts of God, have always been the acts of the Father, and always will be, does NOT mean you beast is dead. So what if you believe that. You could be a terrible person and be completely content in all your terrible actions because God is the one doing them, not you. We will wait for the judgement of Christ to reveal the secrets of mens hearts. We will see if God values your "beast killing" PREEMINENT OVER ARCHING belief that everyone of your impulses, thoughts, actions, and desires are the direct act of God or if God values your acts of Love towards your fellow man, your obedience to Christ, your holiness of putting away the carnal nature and serving others. And we will see whiuch weighs more on the scales, what you believe is the beast killing belief and LOVE, LOVING all people and doing all you can in LOVE with Christ.

[dave]

Amen!

[John from Kentucky]

Because the Beast within doesn't want to die.  Free will keeps it alive.

So, John, is your beast dead?  is your only reason for believing that your beast is dead, is that really really believe you simply are 100% along for the ride, and now that you are, because you are willing to attribute 100% of every one of your thoughts and actions to God the Father directly, so NOW you claim your beast is dead? Just believing that (extreme IMHO) kills the beast? Based on that alone? Is that what the doctrine of No free will really means to you?

Now the following questions are rhetorical to everyone. What about crucifying your flesh? Have you crucified your flesh of its carnal passions and desires? To me, a CLEAN thought life and CLEAN heart and godly and Christ honoring actions would be more an indicator that your beast is dead. If I am doing Christs works, and thinking Christs thoughts, then I believe my beast is dead. Would God really say that your beast is dead if your heart is full of lust, adulteries, lies, coveting, and all the other millions of sins? Are you really are you are putting all others before yourself, even loving your enemies, then I would say your beast is dead. Just because you are at peace in your own soul because you believe that all your actions and thoughts are completely the direct acts of God, have always been the acts of the Father, and always will be, does NOT mean you beast is dead. So what if you believe that. You could be a terrible person and be completely content in all your terrible actions because God is the one doing them, not you. We will wait for the judgement of Christ to reveal the secrets of mens hearts. We will see if God values your "beast killing" PREEMINENT OVER ARCHING belief that everyone of your impulses, thoughts, actions, and desires are the direct act of God or if God values your acts of Love towards your fellow man, your obedience to Christ, your holiness of putting away the carnal nature and serving others. And we will see whiuch weighs more on the scales, what you believe is the beast killing belief and LOVE, LOVING all people and doing all you can in LOVE with Christ.

My, my, what a reaction to the truth of the total sovereignty of God.  The Spirit of God does prick your heart.  Feels like fire, doesn't it?

I'll just make one comment on the last paragraph above.  See how many times you use the personal pronouns---you, your, I, we.  Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.  It is not about mankind, what we do.  It is all about God and what He does.

[DougE6]

God bless you John. I am very happy in my faith and in the love in my heart. I wish you the best andmay God give to you abundantly.  Doug

[John from Kentucky]

God bless you John. I am very happy in my faith and in the love in my heart. I wish you the best andmay God give to you abundantly.  Doug

Well Doug, I wish you the same.  Those of us who believe in the universal salvation of all can't help but have love and best wishes for everyone.  John

[bluzman]

I'd kinda like to say something here. Before I fell over Bible Truths and Ray Smith on the internet, I didn't realize that after 40 years of wandering around blind, couldn't see my hand in front of my face, and  that I never knew my state of carnality. At this moment I don't know how much weaker the beast that is within me is. I believe that all men, except Christ, are born with this character flaw and will die with it. How strong this hatred within me or how much it has been weakened is totally up to God. Even the Elect, IMO, will still have some more purging, howbeit a lot less that most of humanity. I have tried many many times to improve my mind, of my own will, but I never fail to get to first base. The right circumstances arise and there It is, seems just as strong as ever. Maybe only for a few minutes or even seconds, but I look back and say damn, and don't think that I have been bettered by very much from what I was years ago. Sad but true. Bluzman

Ps. I do not believe in Free Will but that doesn't stop me from trying it out, and I can only see this when I am able to look back.

[DougE6]

hi John... the question and your post in the question about square circles give my an idea   OK I am a traveler. I start at the north pole and I proceed in a direct line, due south, down a line of longitude, to the equator. Then I take a right angle turn, a 90 degree turn, due west. I go 1/4 of the circumference of the earth, on the equator. I stop. The I take a 90 degree turn, due north, up a line of longitude, and a end up back at the north pole, but at 90 degrees, a right angle,  from where I started.

What does this have to do with our discussion, and the square circle question?  Well from my perspective, as the traveller, I have made (3) 90 degree turns, or 270 degrees, in my complete journey to the north pole and back. But form another perspective,  I simply did a triangle! Triangles have only 180 degrees! But this particular triangle, being circumscribed on the earth, actually from my point of view, as the traveller, contained 270 degrees!

On can argue and argue and would be correct, that triangles only contain 180 degrees. Kind of like your position on Gods Sovereignity.  But from my perspective, as the traveller, I did 270 degrees on my journey! So who is right? depends. Are we talking theory or the real life experience. Myself, growing in Christ demands that I  look at life from the point of view of the traveller. Of course I have great comfort that God is arranging and steering and placing all things according to His will. And without HIM I can do nothing.  But in the very real road that I am travelling, God leads me to climb mountains or cross valleys sometimes, and do things that I cannot do. Sometimes God takes us places when all the theory is gone and we need to weep before Him and beg His help, even if we KNOW He is not going to one thing different than He already decided, and He is even motivating my petitions themselves.   So for me, my journey has 270 degrees. Someone else can argue the book knowledge that triangles have 180 degrees. But for me, to live in the real world, I must always give my best for God. I have a different temperment than you. Your outlook has much to merit it. So does mine. I will never see eye to eye with your perspective in this life, and I doubt you will mine. But like that square circle question, and because I love science and relativity and the like, I wanted to just illustrate how two people can have two diiferent perspectives and both be right, though I do not feel your perspective is as correct in reach as you think it is, and likewise, I am sure my perspective has glaring errors too.

[DougE6]

Hi Bluzman. Keep the faith. Don't become discouraged. Sometimes realizing the extent of our weakness is vital before God begins to rescue us. But to realize the extent of your weakness, your need to try and fail. We all can relate to what you are saying. Yet I can assure that God has done great changes in me, sometimes after a long desert time. But thirst is an absolute prerequiste to His work. ( I am not going to get into yes I know the thirst comes from God even if that is true, why talk about that, we don't know when He will move, this is all about seeking Him) Please keep your thirst for God and the things of God. Pursue righteousness. Beg God to change you. Plead with Him to change you. I promise, He will. Doug

[cjwood]

... Are we talking theory or the real life experience?

... Please keep your thirst for God and the things of God. Pursue righteousness. Beg God to change you.     Plead with Him to change you.

the bolded statements above are what stuck out for me.  that was the "sermon" (lesson) for my heart.

claudia

[Marky Mark]

I didn't answer your questions because I don't want to argue.  I get bored easily.

I thought my questions were fair questions concerning where the context of the conversation was heading. Seeing that this is a forum I thought maybe you would want to respond. My intentions were not to argue with you or bore you.  Sometimes it is better to eat at home.

Peace to you John...

1Co 11:33  Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
1Co 11:34  And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

[GaryK]

Hi Bluzman. Keep the faith. Don't become discouraged. Sometimes realizing the extent of our weakness is vital before God begins to rescue us. But to realize the extent of your weakness, your need to try and fail. We all can relate to what you are saying. Yet I can assure that God has done great changes in me, sometimes after a long desert time. But thirst is an absolute prerequiste to His work. ( I am not going to get into yes I know the thirst comes from God even if that is true, why talk about that, we don't know when He will move, this is all about seeking Him)

Please keep your thirst for God and the things of God. Pursue righteousness. Beg God to change you. Plead with Him to change you. I promise, He will. Doug

 

(I am not going to get into yes I know the thirst comes from God even if that is true, why talk about that, we don't know when He will move, this is all about seeking Him)

"IF"...........?


So one can keep a thirst for God even when/if God doesn't want them to thirst, or let's say, when one is caused to fall away from the first love, whenever/if that may be, we can retain our thirst for God.   That's what happened with the prodigal son?

?

I'm just trying to reconcile this with what I've read.    No wonder I stay in a perpetual state of confusion.

gk   

[JohnMichael]

"IF"...........?


So one can keep a thirst for God even when/if God doesn't want them to thirst, or let's say, when one is caused to fall away from the first love, whenever/if that may be, we can retain our thirst for God.   That's what happened with the prodigal son?

?

I'm just trying to reconcile this with what I've read.    No wonder I stay in a perpetual state of confusion.

gk   

Hi GK,

In answer to your question bolded above, the answer is no. According to the Scriptures:

Php 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1Ki 8:57  The LORD our God be with us, as he was with our fathers: let him not leave us, nor forsake us:
1Ki 8:58  That HE may incline our hearts unto him, to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and his statutes, and his judgments, which he commanded our fathers. (emphasis mine)

Eze 36:26  A new heart also will I [God] give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27  And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Therefore, unless God is the one moving in one's heart to will and do and desire to do good, they will not. One cannot thwart God's sovereignty because it is God who puts the desire in one's heart in the first place.

Joh 15:5  I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Joh 9:33  If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.

Once God removes the desire from a person's heart to do good and follow after Him, man will go back to what he does voluntarily - which is sin. Man cannot beg God to restore that desire unless it is GOD who is causing man to do so. To imply that man could do such a thing without the influence of God is to support and believe in free will.

I hope this helps.

In Him,
John

[GaryK]

Well, that's good to know.

For a milli-fraction-of-a-split-nano-second I thought maybe I would put up for auction to you fine folks all my bindings of Rays teachings of scripture. 

Thank you JohnMichael------good grasshopper.

gk

[Dave in Tenn]

No, Gary!!  Hang onto the binders, and let what people say on the forum float softly.  Salt EVERYTHING.

[markn902]

This thread makes my head hurt 
I forgot how hard it was to wrap my mind around the whole "free" will thing at first which is where,I think, this thread went to basically.
All I can say is,for me anyway, once you get there it's pretty peaceful