"God created evil" (in some Bibles) ??

[Duane]

In studying Ray's material, I came across the fact that "GOD created evil"!  I also took note that "ALL things are of God" so He must have created evil along with everything else that exists.
Someone took umbrage at my statement that "God created evil" so I opened to Isaiah 45:7 which states
"I make peace and I create evil".  I  verified the exact wording in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.

THEN, I looked it up in an old KJV; and there, it was worded "evil".  Then I looked in a newer KJV and they repaced "evil" with the word "calamity" and the New International Version substituted the word "evil" for "darkness"!  WHO gives "them" the permission to translate the greek word "EVIL" for whatever they wish?  Doesn't Rev. 22:19 forbid the "adding/changing" of the scriptures? 

Then, just for the fun of it, I turned to Genesis 3:17 and all of them said "--Tree of the knowledge of good and evil"!  Why didn't they say the "tree of good and DARKNESS" or "tree of good and CALAMITY"??
And one wonders WHY the "Church of Babylon" has so many spiritually confused people?  It comes from confused ministers who study from confused translations of the Bible!!  Thank God for Ray!!

[Foxx]

This is why there are those of us, through only the grace of God, who have been given the ability to discern such things.

I have had similar instances where I stated the Bible clearly says in multiple places that God created evil and they cry blasphame (well not literally but angirily disagree) and then when I show them these several verses, Isaiah 45:7 being one of them, they don't disregard it as trivial...

I had a discussion with my mother the other day and she said that there are people who love Jesus even if they don't fully understand or have learned certain things. And that I am wrong for saying that they don't and its not my place to "judge" whether or not they do know him. I said, "mom I don't judge anyone but I see what they say they believe and its wrong and of much ignorance".  I know there are those who are good to others, non-judgmental, obedient, and loving, and believe in Christ. However, they still believe that so many are going to be burned. Yes they obey and claim to love Jesus but the God they obey is this monster that doesn't exist. If you put them in the hot seat and asked where do people go who died not believing in Christ all that love, kindness, humility and non-judgemental attitudes goes flying out the window.

Anyway, no real point other than to say that Christian world is full of people who do love Jesus but don't understand fully why. They believe he is their savior because they accepted him...not because he drew them to him, not because HE saved them.  They are living contradictions, they say "Jesus saved me but I had to accept that salvation" What? then how did save me if I had to accept it? We are not the authors of our own salvation. We are powerless to save ourselves. Only through God's grace can we do anything that is good.

[Samson]

In studying Ray's material, I came across the fact that "GOD created evil"!  I also took note that "ALL things are of God" so He must have created evil along with everything else that exists.
Someone took umbrage at my statement that "God created evil" so I opened to Isaiah 45:7 which states
"I make peace and I create evil".  I  verified the exact wording in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.

THEN, I looked it up in an old KJV; and there, it was worded "evil".  Then I looked in a newer KJV and they repaced "evil" with the word "calamity" and the New International Version substituted the word "evil" for "darkness"!  WHO gives "them" the permission to translate the greek word "EVIL" for whatever they wish?  Doesn't Rev. 22:19 forbid the "adding/changing" of the scriptures? 

Then, just for the fun of it, I turned to Genesis 3:17 and all of them said "--Tree of the knowledge of good and evil"!  Why didn't they say the "tree of good and DARKNESS" or "tree of good and CALAMITY"??
And one wonders WHY the "Church of Babylon" has so many spiritually confused people?  It comes from confused ministers who study from confused translations of the Bible!!  Thank God for Ray!!

Hi Duane,

First, Just a little levity in response to one part of Your comment: " Who gives them permission to translate the word Evil from the Greek," not an exact quote, I certainly didn't give them permission,  , but they did it anyway. Actually, it's the Hebrew Word Ra which the " Bible Scholars," at least the Orthodox Ones that translate the Hebrew work Ra in way or manner that suits them or in a way necessary to fit their preconceived Doctrines. In the New Testament or Greek Scriptures, they often use the Words Evil and Wicked interchangeably. This seems to be a mistake, well, to Me, it is. The Hebrew Word Ra properly translated Evil has no Moral Bias and doesn't refer to a wicked act or thought emanating from Humans. When God brings Evil or Causes Evil to befall people, it has the purpose of benefiting or teaching us, not necessarily at present, but ultimately, somewhere down the line.

Below is an example of a Scripture that I become aware of that is poorly translated, but prior to reading it in the King James Version, I often heard others from the Forum mention it this way: " I have given the Sons of Mankind, an experience of Evil to therefore humble them." Ecclesiastes. 1:13(CLT). Now, when first reading in from the King James Version, I read this, Read below.

Ecc 1:13  And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.

Now lets break down some of these words contained in this verse. Read Below !

Notice the word sore from the above verse, the word sore is a type of evil, but they translate the Hebrew word Ra(Rah) into the word sore, notice below the definition of Evil, distress, sore, affliction, calamity, etc.

rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra'ah; as adjective or noun.]

Now, notice the word Exercise and the word it's translated from found below. One of the meanings of the Hebrew word Anah is Humble self.

‛ânâh
aw-naw'
A primitive root (possibly rather identical with H6030 through the idea of looking down or browbeating); to depress literally or figuratively, transitively or intransitively (in various applications). (sing is by mistake for H6030.): - abase self, afflict (-ion, self), answer [by mistake for H6030], chasten self, deal hardly with, defile, exercise, force, gentleness, humble (self), hurt, ravish, sing [by mistake for H6030], speak [by mistake for H6030], submit self, weaken, X in any wise.

When I first read that verse from Ecclesiastes. 1:13 desiring to check it out myself, I thought to myself, What in the world does this mean and eventually checked the way it's translated from The Concordant Literal Version and realized it now made sense to Me.

Throughout My studies in attempting to learn the Hebrew & Greek terms with their meanings, I find that the Orthodox Bible Scholars are obligated to give the correct definition(s) in their Hebrew/Greek Dictionaries, but they have so many different definitions for any particular word, that they are able to use any particular synonymous word from their list of definitions of a particular word in order to translate the word into any particular Language to conform to their interpretations, using the god of Context, Hermeneutics and Exegesis as their instrument to persuade us peasants to their way of thinking.

In regards to using the Words Wicked and Evil interchangeably, I prefer not to. When Humans perform a deliberate undesirable act towards other Humans, it makes more sense to say it was a wicked act. When God brings about some sort trouble Our way, it's an experience of Evil, but it's not a wicked act, because God never does anything wicked to anyone. Below, Read an example of how some Greek Words are sometimes used interchangeably as wicked or evil. In some of the newer Bible Versions in regards to the New Testament, they are using the word wicked more often and more accurately in reference to Humans committing wicked acts or being wicked.

Orthodox Bible Scholars seem to Use Evil(Greek- Poneros & Kakos) somewhat interchangeably with Wickedness. That which results from Pain, sorrow, distress can be classified as Evil(Greek-Kakos), but not necessarily Greek-Poneros which is Evil resulting from the wicked act of others. The Hebrew Ra depends on the context in the sense of the purpose or motive behind the Evil Act.

Well, Have a good Evening Duane, no time to elaborate on this any further, I'm sure that others will contribute more,  .

                      Kind Regards, Samson.

[Duane]

Samson...thank you for your very scholarly answer and the research you obviously did!

Your one paragraph (3?) is the part that disturbed me the most because that is JUST the objection that was given to me to disparage Ray!  I was told that in order for Ray to lead his followers astray from the orthodox way of understanding the Bible, passed down by such greats as D.L. Moody et. al., was to take the Greek words with so MANY possible meanings and attach the most OBSCURE to "Ray's point of view"
and present them as "advanced understanding of the Bible" thus making it a "private interpretation"--
as warned against in 2 Peter 1: 20!

The Blue Bible Concordance was used to show (teach me) the many terms a Greek word could actually mean so WHY do I CHOOSE to go "out on a limb" and believe  R-A-Y's interpretation which conflicts with "time-proven" scholar's of the faith?

Being a new B-T'er, I was ill-prepared to answer except that I felt CHOSEN (drawn) by God to accept 
what Ray was teaching even though I didn't know all the answers.  To use a poor analogy, "you are
born a biker" (even though you know all the dangers) and you ride in ALL KINDS OF WEATHER; as opposed to "those people who 'just OWN motorcycles" and ride in the best of conditions so they don't get their bikes dirty".  Bikers HAVE TO own and ride a motorcycle from the time they are of age, or
they aren't complete.  B-T'ers are DRAWN to the teachings even though they don't know the answers
and just can't "let it be". 

SOOOO, I don't know Greek/Hebrew--but I DO KNOW whne I am fed a bunch of lies!  I just feel it!
Thanks again for your answer..   

[Samson]

Good Morning Duane,

It's the quiet of the Early Morning, the time of the Day when my thoughts are much clearer. Although the Weather is lousy, I slept very well and My Wife is still asleep, it's a good time to reflect and comment on Your last Post. I agree to some extent on the last sentence of that Post regarding " the feeling that something is wrong and that I was and am fed a pack of Lies."

The basis behind what I'm about to say centers around that concept of Truth: " Teachings that come from a pack of Lies." I've never believed in the Orthodox Christian interpretation of hardly anything, perhaps that's why God's plan for Me was to start with an unorthodox type "Christian" Denomination and although that particular Denomination was flawed too, it was part of a process that God planned for Me in the direction of obtaining accurate Truth. Having a "Desire" or " feeling," as you mention in your last Post was the origin of that process, but after that initial desire or feeling that something doesn't seem right, a continual pursuit in a logical and analytical examination of Doctrines or interpretations of Beliefs takes place, at least for Me. I want proof and need to know Why.

All of the above leads to the Crux of the matter at hand; How did I know Who's or What interpretation was correct, aside from the obvious, God's Spirit was directing Me. Well, aside from that, I'll give you a list below that gives some basis as to how I know those with the correct interpretation on major Doctrinal issues cannot be Christian Orthodoxy(those of the majority) including their Bible Scholars & Theologians. Also, Let Me set one thing straight: " Although I desire and I'm trying to learn Hebrew & Greek meanings of bible words, I'm not an expert, but I'm capable of reading & understanding for myself, not every minute detail, but the main thought. Also, their are many reputable Universalist Scholars that fluently know Hebrew & Greek. Some know Greek fluently, some know Hebrew & Greek fluently. I'm not going to make an extensive list, at this time, but Two come to my mind: Alexander Thomson was Linguist who knew Greek fluently and then there's World renowned Bible Translator Joseph Rotherham(Rotherham's Emphasized Bible). I did a little research on Joseph Rotherham, He has credentials that are just as good, if not better than any Orthodox Greek Scholar, but Orthodox Scholars are not going to raise their hands and make an effort to tell you, the common peasant(that's you & Me) about this. Thanks to God for the internet and it's available information. Well, anyway, below is a List that draws attention to large inconsistencies from the Orthodox interpretation of things.

Number 1: If the Bible teaches Endless Punishment, Why didn't God warn them Adam & Eve of such, they were told that they would surely die, no mention of endless punishment in any of it's forms. It would be illogical & inconsistent on God's part to punish someone endlessly without telling them in advance. Add to that thought, the teaching that Adam & Eve were Perfect, both Morally & Spiritually before eating the Forbidden Fruit, another inconsistency. How can someone that's Perfect commit a Sin, I mean perfect in the way they define perfect(flawless Moral & Spiritual Character). You can add Satan to that list. If He was created perfect, in the sense that they define perfect, He couldn't have sinned, He would have no desire to do so. Don't forget the account about Cain, no warning of endless punishment towards Him. Cain said that the punishment He received from God, getting sent to the Land of Fugitiveness was too great. He just got warned by God about His Anger issues, Murders Abel and no mention is given about endless punishment, only getting sent to the Land of Fugitiveness, add to that, no one was supposed to Kill Cain, God said that if anyone Murdered Cain, He would be avenged.

Number 2: Lets assume that Orthodox Christianity was right about the Hebrew word Ohlam and the  Greek Words Aions & Aionios meant Everlasting, Eternal and Forever and that Punishment was Endless. What type of punishment would it be: A Literal Physical Fire burning; An Endless Separation from God or An Annihilation or Extinction(Endless Death). They don't even agree among themselves, what type of punishment people receive. They don't agree among themselves as to a formula one must pursue in order to avoid Endless Punishment. If the Peasant Rank & File Church Believer doesn't know exactly what to do in order to avoid receiving Endless Punishment, How are they to avoid it. So far, it sounds like Confusion to Me(Babble On meaning Babylon).

Number 3: If everyone has inherent immortality, both the wicked & righteous, what's the point of the bible's clear teaching of the Resurrection. Why would God need to resurrect anyone if they never really die.

Number 4: Why didn't Orthodox Scholars make clear to their followers the difference between Sheol, Hades and Gehenna. Even in Modern times, many Church followers see the word Hell and don't know the difference between Hell(Hades- unseen, imperceptible) & Hell Fire or Fiery Hell(Gehenna- A garbage dump located outside of SW walls of Jerusalem). Why did they not openly explain this to their Church Followers if their interpretation is right. If their right about "Their" interpretation of these words, why hide it and wait until someone does research and only then defend how they interpret it. Even in the Parable of the Rich Man & Lazarus, the word Hell mentioned is Hades, not Gehenna, so even if it wasn't a Parable & not Literal, the word in that Parable is not Gehenna(Hellfire). Why don't they openly tell you, instead waiting for you to discover this on your own. If they have the Truth, they should have nothing to hide from such an examination.

I could give many more examples, but the bottom line is: Their interpretations have too many inconsistencies, the same applies to the way they translate certain words, some of their spurious passages. Interestingly, when studying My Strongs Hebrew/Greek Bible Dictionary & other Bible Dictionaries where the Scholar has an already preconceived belief; Example: The Trinity, Hellfire, Immortality of the Soul or some sort of Endless Punishment belief, etc, those verses & translating of certain words are almost always rendered in such a way to help support that particular belief or in such a way to at least confuse the Bible reader, but usually when they translate most other bible Words, the ones that don't pose a threat to supporting their Major Doctrines, they are honest & accurate with those words. If the interpretations of the Orthodox Bible Scholars are the only acceptable way of understanding the Scriptures loaded with their inconsistencies, We All might as well throw the Bible in the garbage, because their interpretation would portray a Schizophrenic God that contradicts Himself.

                  Kind Regards, Samson.

[Duane]

Samson...I learned so very much from your three examples, as I am sure many others will read and learn from too, that i would like to encourage you (beg you) to keep on writing brief synopsises of inconsistencies.  Why?  Because they are concise and easy to understand and copy.
There are many great answers to problems that I read regularly BUT they are tomes and take hours to read where you do such a great job synthesizing things down to the core. (compliment!)
Keep Crazy4bam asleep an extra hour each morning and we will ALL be blessed with the results!!!!
Then, too, we PROMISE not to be lazy in our own reading because you had to do YOUR research so why should you share it for free at the expense of your own time?? WHY? Because you LOVE us--m-o-u-s-e!
(music not included)
I admire you for learning Greek and Hebrew on your own.  You have the (beautiful) mind for it, where we, "commoners" barely struggle to read your last explanation--trying desperately hard too convince ourselves that we "got it"--like the disciples tried to convince Jesus that they "got" His parables, where in reality "they didn't have  clue".
Any effort you make, even one inconsistency per day, would be greatly appreciated and would certainly be counted as a "ministry" to FORUM readers.
Incidentally, WHAT religious following did you start or join that you eluded to?
Thanks again for sharing.   Duane

[Foxx]

If the interpretations of the Orthodox Bible Scholars are the only acceptable way of understanding the Scriptures loaded with their inconsistencies, We All might as well throw the Bible in the garbage, because their interpretation would portray a Schizophrenic God that contradicts Himself.

                  Kind Regards, Samson

AMEN!!!!!!!!!

[markn902]

If the interpretations of the Orthodox Bible Scholars are the only acceptable way of understanding the Scriptures loaded with their inconsistencies, We All might as well throw the Bible in the garbage, because their interpretation would portray a Schizophrenic God that contradicts Himself.

                  Kind Regards, Samson

That deserves another one
AMEN! 

[dave]

And another Amen!

[Cypress]

These are, I think, the most powerful revelations. I think sooo much boils down to these bad interpretations and mistranslated words, it's mind blowing! The sad thing is, most Christians don't want to hear and accept any of these things. So they continue to modify the Word...can you imagine hundreds of years of changes? When I learned about "hell" and all the words that are translated into "hell", that was it for me. There have been so many similar revelations since.

[Ian]

Just my two cents, but I thought that Rev. 22:19 was only referring to the "Book" of Revelation  (The Unveiling)...

[Duane]

Now dats a new one!  I would REALLY be interested in hearing comments on whether the "adding to or taking from" referred to just the Book of Revelation or the Bible as a whole!  I was always taught the latter so, like EVERYTHING ELSE, I never questioned it. (gulp!)
Sooo, probably if I was taught the WHOLE, it would be consistent that it will be proven to apply ONLY
to the Book of Revelation by B-T.  :-)
Comments?

[mharrell08]

Just my two cents, but I thought that Rev. 22:19 was only referring to the "Book" of Revelation  (The Unveiling)...

Now dats a new one!  I would REALLY be interested in hearing comments on whether the "adding to or taking from" referred to just the Book of Revelation or the Bible as a whole!  I was always taught the latter so, like EVERYTHING ELSE, I never questioned it. (gulp!)
Sooo, probably if I was taught the WHOLE, it would be consistent that it will be proven to apply ONLY
to the Book of Revelation by B-T.  :-)
Comments?

It's all of God's Word.

Deut 4:2  You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

2 Tim 3:17  All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness


Hope this helps,

Marques

[mmijares]

In my study, the "adding and taking" in the Book of Revelation refers only to the words received by John from Jesus Christ.  It could not mean the whole "compiled" bible since the whole compilation was inexistent yet at the time of John's vision.

[Ian]

Now dats a new one!  I would REALLY be interested in hearing comments on whether the "adding to or taking from" referred to just the Book of Revelation or the Bible as a whole!  I was always taught the latter so, like EVERYTHING ELSE, I never questioned it. (gulp!)
Sooo, probably if I was taught the WHOLE, it would be consistent that it will be proven to apply ONLY
to the Book of Revelation by B-T.  :-)
Comments?

Young's Literal Translation (emphasis mine):

Revelation 22:19
'and if any one may take away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the scroll of the life, and out of the holy city, and the things that have been written in this scroll;'

[mmijares]

Actually, I do not have any problem if the meaning of "adding / taking" encompasses the whole scriptures.  It is just that if I would imagine myself acquiring the very first copy of the Apostle's John letter (book of revelation), I would instantly think that it is referring to the prophecies written on it SINCE at the time of its writing, no canonized scriptures exist yet... even the the gospel and the epistles written by John himself were not available yet.

Now that the canonization is complete and we have the compiled Protestant Bible, which is incidentally does not contain Apocrypha, there began the listing of spurious passages.  So, who is adding and taking what now?

I only hold onto God's promise of His Spirit guiding us in our understanding.  Whatever mistranslations (including the term "rah"), additions, subtractions, inconsistencies, discrepancies, etc. that may be found (or allegedly found), God's message to mankind is still intact and it is all there in the letters in the compiled books we call Bible.