Spirit

[Ian]

Hello,
I had another question... What exactly is the spirit in man? I was reading a Bible two nights ago (Living Streams...) and I am now confused. I believe the spirit has no intellect, thanks to Ray's articles and Kat. But I found a few verses the stumped me (again).

1 Corinthians 2:11
Mark 2:8
Mark 14:38

I apologize for being uh...unintelligent.

[Dave in Tenn]

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11605.0.html Is a collection of email answers related to the body/soul/spirit question.

Maybe a little 'reverse engineering' would be helpful.  I've seen a few dead people and many dead animals.  That tells me pretty much all I need to know about what spirit is in man.  My 'life' is a combination of spirit and body.  Put them together--no, intricately intertwine them--and that makes 'me', a living soul.  Kill my body, and the 'package' is destroyed.  My spirit 'knows' and 'thinks' because it is a part of 'me'. 

That's about the best I can do.  I've spent a lot of the last 3 and 1/2 years 'de-religifying' all kinds of theological notions.  Just me talking, but it's irksome to think that religion has people so confused they don't even know who THEY are anymore.

1Co 2:11,12 For is any of humanity acquainted with that which is human except the spirit of humanity which is in it? (Do we know who we are?)   Thus also, that which is of God no one knows, except the spirit of God.  Now we obtained, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God, that we may be perceiving that which is being graciously given to us by God...  (Are we becoming acquainted with God in the same way we are acquainted with ourselves and the rest of humanity?)

THAT'S the best I can do.   
     

[Kat]

Hi Ian,

Here are a few places Ray speaks on this.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,655.0.html ---------

You are not paying attention to my writings. The consciousness is not in the body, and it is not in the spirit. The consciousness of man is in his soul, and his soul is resultant outcome of our spirit being united with a body. God breathed the breath and spirit of life into the man formed from the dust of the ground, and the man then BECAME a living soul. He BECAME conscious of his own being. At death we are no longer conscious of our being or our death. Our spirit must be reunited with a new body in resurrection before we will regain the soul and consciousness that we had before we died.


http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm -------------

The words "soul" and "spirit" have become corrupted through theology so that they are now used interchangeably, as if they were synonymous. They are not synonymous. There may be certain similarities between soul and spirit, but similarities do not make them one and the same.

The "soul" is the seat of sensation, consciousness, and feelings, not the body or the spirit. It is the spirit that imparts life to the body and the body then becomes a living soul (Gen. 2:7).

A thorough study of the word "soul" in the Scriptures proves that it is used of consciousness, feelings, and emotions. Hence, "sensation" is a good word to define its usage.
v

                                          TV ANALOGY

Here is an analogy that is applicable and easy to understand: God's spirit gives life to the body. Only in life does a man have consciousness or sensation. When God takes back His spirit, the body and soul are dead.

Picture a TV console as representing the human BODY with all its intricate circuitry and components.

Now picture ELECTRICITY as the invisible, powerful force representing God's life-giving SPIRIT.

Picture the blank PICTURE TUBE as representing the SOUL.

Without the electricity (God's spirit), the TV and picture tube (body and soul) are dead. All the time I hear preachers talking about our souls and our spirits as if they were one and the same. Soul and spirit are not one and the same.

Next plug in the electricity (God's spirit). The TV comes to life, and we see the picture tube (soul) animated. We see color, sound, dancing, singing, talking, intelligent conversations, all live via satellite. The dead TV becomes a living, visible, animated, intelligent entity-"Soul." But notice very carefully, the Soul (the animated picture in the TV tube) is not one of the original components. It is not a component in and by itself, but is rather the result of two other vital components, Body and Spirit (the TV console and electricity).

At bedtime I sometimes tell my daughter to give the TV a rest. When one turns off the "on/off" switch the TV goes to "sleep." The power light is still on, but the TV is blank and silent.

But now, pull the plug and take away the electricity (spirit) and what happens to the TV console (body)? It dies. It's just a box of circuits. Not even the power light is on anymore. If left unplugged it will, in time, decay and return to the dust of the ground.

And what happens to the colorful animated picture on the screen (soul) when we take away the electricity (spirit)? Want the real answer? Ask a child. Let several children watch TV together, then pull the plug and ask them where the picture went? A child will shrug his shoulders or say "I don't know" or say "It disappeared." Guess what? He is Scripturally correct on all three counts.

Without spirit there is no life and no consciousness. Without power a TV has no life and no animated picture. It's dead.

If you were to ask an ancient Hebrew person what happens to the soul (the thinking, feeling, animated, sentient personality of a man) at death, he would shrug his shoulders or say "who knows" or just say "it disappears." That's what "Sheol" meant to the Hebrews. It was a question mark. And the Greeks had their word for the same idea (Hades-the UNSEEN, the IMPERCEPTIBLE), and hades and sheol are synonymous in Scripture (Acts 2:27).
v
In Scripture, death is called a "return" [Heb. shub]. Before we were born we had no body, no soul, and no perception of any kind. At birth God gave us a body, implanted to us His spirit, which gives the body perception (through the brain and the five senses). At death, we [shub] RETURN. The reversal of what happened at birth. The spirit returns to God (Ecc. 12:7), the body returns to the dust (all the elements of man's body are found in the ground or earth) (Job 10:9, Ecc. 3:18-21), and the soul returns to no perception again (the imperceptible or unseen-hades) (Acts 2:27 and Psalm 49:15). This is what the Scriptures very plainly teach: where all that man "is" came from, that's where all that man "is" returns to.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Ian]

Kat, ah, so does that mean the last two verses I mentioned are metaphors? (Could be wrong term. I'm not thinking straight).

Also, is Psalm 6:5-6 a "poem"? I was looking at a Wikipedia article about the soul in the Bible (big mistake; it's biased towards a conscience afterlife). It stated:
"The verse is simply affirming that from a human point of view, a dead body does not praise God. How ridiculous to suggest this poetic verse was intended to give a detailed doctrinal roadmap of the state of the dead."

Honestly, that makes no sense to me...Why all the lamentation if David doesn't actually die?

Also, do righteous people also go to the "pit" ("Heb: bowr")? The article stated that only wicked do.
And, um, what do Job 26:5 and "Rephaim" mean?

I do apologize for asking stupid questions, and possibly repeating myself.. I don't mean to.  

[Kat]

Hi Ian,

so does that mean the last two verses I mentioned are metaphors?

Mar 14:38  Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. Truly the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.

The spirit gives the body physical life and so then we are able to reason with our mind, have preception.

Job 32:8  But a spirit is in man giving them perception, even the breath of the Almighty.

Also, do righteous people also go to the "pit" ("Heb: bowr")? The article stated that only wicked do.

I think that to be cast into the pit/grave is just a crude way of implying what happens to the wicked.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Dave in Tenn]

Kat, ah, so does that mean the last two verses I mentioned are metaphors? (Could be wrong term. I'm not thinking straight).

Also, is Psalm 6:5-6 a "poem"? I was looking at a Wikipedia article about the soul in the Bible (big mistake; it's biased towards a conscience afterlife). It stated:
"The verse is simply affirming that from a human point of view, a dead body does not praise God. How ridiculous to suggest this poetic verse was intended to give a detailed doctrinal roadmap of the state of the dead."

Honestly, that makes no sense to me...Why all the lamentation if David doesn't actually die?

Also, do righteous people also go to the "pit" ("Heb: bowr")? The article stated that only wicked do.
And, um, what do Job 26:5 and "Rephaim" mean?

I do apologize for asking stupid questions, and possibly repeating myself.. I don't mean to.  

Well, sure it's poetry.  It is a Psalm, after all, and in Hebrew it 'sings'.  But it's a statement of fact.  The writer of the article is part-right...it is unwise to take a single verse of Scripture and build an understanding.  He or she doesn't know what 'dead' means...and that's pretty ridiculous to me.  

David DOES actually die.  There IS no remembrance of God in death.  What David is leaving out is that God WILL save him...in resurrection.  For memory, you need a body, and a body with spirit--or it's just a hunk of meat.

Neither the righteous nor the unrighteous GO anywhere when they die.  Not 'heaven', not 'hell', not a pit.  They die.  They 'go' into sheol/hades...the imperceptible where nothing is known, just like David said.  To say they 'go' there is metaphor.  There is no 'place' called sheol or hades.  No 'place' called the pit, at least not one man can't dig with a shovel.

Job 26:5.  Now that's metaphor and poetry.  If it isn't, then the clear statements about death are contradicted.  It's even poetry to say the dead are awaiting resurrection.  The dead don't 'wait' as they have no thoughts...it's not even possible for the dead to think...and it takes thought to experience the passage of time in anticipation.

Ray has a short paper on the front page entitled 'An Encouraging word about Death' that should help you.  

http://bible-truths.com/death.htm

Hey, I'm not Kat, but I was awake.          

[Ian]

Kat,
I had not seen Job 32:8 before. Thank you. ^^

Well, sure it's poetry.  It is a Psalm, after all, and in Hebrew it 'sings'.  But it's a statement of fact.  The writer of the article is part-right...it is unwise to take a single verse of Scripture and build an understanding.  He or she doesn't know what 'dead' means...and that's pretty ridiculous to me.  

David DOES actually die.  There IS no remembrance of God in death.  What David is leaving out is that God WILL save him...in resurrection.  For memory, you need a body, and a body with spirit--or it's just a hunk of meat.

Neither the righteous nor the unrighteous GO anywhere when they die.  Not 'heaven', not 'hell', not a pit.  They die.  They 'go' into sheol/hades...the imperceptible where nothing is known, just like David said.  To say they 'go' there is metaphor.  There is no 'place' called sheol or hades.  No 'place' called the pit, at least not one man can't dig with a shovel.

Job 26:5.  Now that's metaphor and poetry.  If it isn't, then the clear statements about death are contradicted.  It's even poetry to say the dead are awaiting resurrection.  The dead don't 'wait' as they have no thoughts...it's not even possible for the dead to think...and it takes thought to experience the passage of time in anticipation.

Ray has a short paper on the front page entitled 'An Encouraging word about Death' that should help you.  

http://bible-truths.com/death.htm

Hey, I'm not Kat, but I was awake.          

Hello,
Thank you Dave!
I was hoping that when I saw you reading this earlier that you would not be upset over the silly question. I should not have read that Bible, it just made me even more confused.

The writer of that site apparently assumes that (as a matter of fact, I've read multiple commentators) the writers of the OT were limited in their understanding, explaining why they wrote "negatively" about death. One even went as far to state that "...the book of Ecclesiastes, mirrors the cynical pessimism of the skeptical philosopher [himself]."
(yeah, right.)

I loved your closing message ("Hey, I'm not Kat, but I was awake. ") ^^

Ah, one other question... What does the phrase "under the sun" mean in Ecc. 9:5-10? I've read that some interpret it to mean that "they have no knowledge about what goes on the Earth".

[Dave in Tenn]

They don't have knowedge of what happens on earth.  When they die, all that is gone.  They're dead.  They have no knowledge period.  Why not?  Because they're dead. 

That writer sees 'cynical pessimism' in Ecclesiastes.  I've been riddled with cynicism, pessimism, and depression.  God has had me on my belly.  He or she can't tell me squat about that, and christian doctrine had a large part to play--the largest part, actually. 

Now I see faith and the beginning of wisdom in Ecclesiastes.  Besides that, whoever wrote that Book of the Bible understood what 'dead' means, which makes him a heap smarter than the writer of that article.        

Speaking of faith, this passage came to mind.  Heb 11:39:40  And all these, (the faithful dead of the old covenants recounted in many earlier verses)  having received approval through [their] faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better concerning us, that they should not be made perfect without us.

The dead are not going to stay dead.

[Ian]

They don't have knowedge of what happens on earth.  When they die, all that is gone.  They're dead.  They have no knowledge period.  Why not?  Because they're dead. 

That writer sees 'cynical pessimism' in Ecclesiastes.  I've been riddled with cynicism, pessimism, and depression.  God has had me on my belly.  He or she can't tell me squat about that, and christian doctrine had a large part to play--the largest part, actually. 

Now I see faith and the beginning of wisdom in Ecclesiastes.  Besides that, whoever wrote that Book of the Bible understood what 'dead' means, which makes him a heap smarter than the writer of that article.        

Speaking of faith, this passage came to mind.  Heb 11:39:40  And all these, (the faithful dead of the old covenants recounted in many earlier verses)  having received approval through [their] faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better concerning us, that they should not be made perfect without us.

The dead are not going to stay dead.

Dave, please, may I send you the article?

[Dave in Tenn]

I guess.  I don't know what purpose it would serve.  I'm fully convinced.  I suspect he or she is fully convinced.  I certainly can't explain these things better than Ray.  But send it if you want to.

[Ian]

I guess.  I don't know what purpose it would serve.  I'm fully convinced.  I suspect he or she is fully convinced.  I certainly can't explain these things better than Ray.  But send it if you want to.

Ah, I see. I just thought that maybe it would better explain my confusion.

[Dave in Tenn]

I've taken a look at the site.  And what did I see?  I see it teaches eternal concious torment.  They are teaching the depth of Satan!  Is it any wonder why they need to twist plain scripture to convince themselves and others that man somehow 'survives death'?  How are the ungodly (however they define them) going to be properly punished if they don't burn in hell forever, and KNOW IT!

They don't believe that the wages of sin is death.  They would SAY they do, but they lie.  When pressed, they will redefine death as 'eternal, concious torment'.  They don't believe people die at all.  They will jump and thump to say they believe people die, but they lie.  God defines and describes death in scripture.  Everybody who has ever died has died the way He describes it.  They can't and won't understand the scripture they quote EXCEPT in the ""light"" of belief in Hell.  "The PIT is Hell, the GRAVE is Hell, Sheol is Hell, Hades is Hell, Gehenna is Hell, Judgement is Hell, DEATH is hell, the Lake of Fire is Hell."            

Much of what they say is the 'alternative' for what they teach is ALSO not true.  Not true in scripture and NOT TRUE about what Ray teaches, though I have no doubt in the morass of religionism there are people teaching every imaginable sort of hobbled-together high-sounding, low-IQ doctrine that contradicts itself, other scripture, and sound teaching.  It really gets me steamed when they tell me they know what I must believe if I don't agree with them.  They don't have a clue.  Not a clue.  I'm not even IN their little hobby-lobby debate.  

Yes, I understand 'confusion' in a general sense when it comes to scriptural matters.  One the one hand you have _____ism and on the other hand you have the _____ists.  Just because there appear to be two sides to any argument does not make one of them right.  There is no branch of christian theology that isn't foolish or evilly foolish.  Don't let fools and liars frame the debate.  Think on what is TRUE.  If you're not sure yet what is true, then I absolutely cannot do better for you than to turn you to Ray.  Have you read the links provided in this thread?

You want to get un-confused?  Stop visiting websites put up by ministers of Satan, especially those that preach "eternal concious torment".  There's an excellent start.

I love the truth...LOVE IT!  I can't sit still stroking my chin murmuring, "Hmmm....yes...interesting point they raise...though I don't believe they have it quite right when discussing the De-amplification of the Doctrine of Subglooberificationism concerning the Self-Resident Stratovarious of All Subsistence" when I'm reading so called theologians deny the plan of God, and the meaning of life and death.

Hang in there, Ian.

 



 

[firefly77]

Dave,
Thank you for your passionate replies in this thread; I so totally agree.

Blessings!

[Rene]

Don't let fools and liars frame the debate.  Think on what is TRUE.

You want to get un-confused?  Stop visiting websites put up by ministers of Satan, especially those that preach "eternal concious torment".  There's an excellent start.

Good, solid advice!

René

[River]

Dave,

Does your humor increase when you get worked up? 

[Dave in Tenn]

Hey River.  All my Subglooberificationist friends say it does.  I lean more towards Subwooferism myself.

[Mbongiseni]

Hi Dave

Its not the 'longishisms' and the 'shortists' terms that I commend but the straight forward and clear explanation you give to Ians confusion. It is normal to be mixed up with these words and their true meaning if one did understand Ray's articles on Hell in the Lake of Fire Part 16 serries. Everything one needs to understand is there.

you know when I was still a young boy before age 10 I never used to like the type of food my mother insisted I must eat; one day she called me in for lunch and I didn't feel like eating anything so isaid to her "Mom why cant humans eat once and for all and never worry again about food?" Mother said "If you eat all your food once and for all you wont grow!" The secret is... for us to grow we have to imbibe little truths at a time.

Its nice  to be here!
Mbongiseni

[Dave in Tenn]

you know when I was still a young boy before age 10 I never used to like the type of food my mother insisted I must eat; one day she called me in for lunch and I didn't feel like eating anything so isaid to her "Mom why cant humans eat once and for all and never worry again about food?" Mother said "If you eat all your food once and for all you wont grow!" The secret is... for us to grow we have to imbibe little truths at a time.

Its nice  to be here!
Mbongiseni

Clearly your mom fed you well.  I'm glad you're here.

[Ian]

Ah, something I wanted to ask...

Eight texts in the Old Testament refer to the inhabitants of sheol as rephaim. What does this word mean?

[Dave in Tenn]

It seems like the translators take their pick of meanings.  I see everything from 'the dead' to 'giants'.

Literally, the Rephaim are the people of Repha or Rephah (the -im suffix is pluralizing like Elohim) and are mentioned often in the early books.  It was a particular place-name, and the inhabitants of the place 'repha' are 'rephaim' in the same way the inhabitants of Australia are Australians.

One (?) of the 'rephaim' in the early books is described as a man of great stature. This may be the source of calling ALL 'rephaim' giants.  Seems like a stretch to me.  Later mentions of them use the term symbolically much as Sodom is used symbolically after the destruction of the city.

That's what I get.