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Spirit
Dave in Tenn:
--- Quote from: Ian on September 24, 2011, 10:25:13 PM ---Kat, ah, so does that mean the last two verses I mentioned are metaphors? (Could be wrong term. I'm not thinking straight).
Also, is Psalm 6:5-6 a "poem"? I was looking at a Wikipedia article about the soul in the Bible (big mistake; it's biased towards a conscience afterlife). It stated:
"The verse is simply affirming that from a human point of view, a dead body does not praise God. How ridiculous to suggest this poetic verse was intended to give a detailed doctrinal roadmap of the state of the dead."
Honestly, that makes no sense to me...Why all the lamentation if David doesn't actually die?
Also, do righteous people also go to the "pit" ("Heb: bowr")? The article stated that only wicked do.
And, um, what do Job 26:5 and "Rephaim" mean?
I do apologize for asking stupid questions, and possibly repeating myself.. I don't mean to. :-[
--- End quote ---
Well, sure it's poetry. It is a Psalm, after all, and in Hebrew it 'sings'. But it's a statement of fact. The writer of the article is part-right...it is unwise to take a single verse of Scripture and build an understanding. He or she doesn't know what 'dead' means...and that's pretty ridiculous to me.
David DOES actually die. There IS no remembrance of God in death. What David is leaving out is that God WILL save him...in resurrection. For memory, you need a body, and a body with spirit--or it's just a hunk of meat.
Neither the righteous nor the unrighteous GO anywhere when they die. Not 'heaven', not 'hell', not a pit. They die. They 'go' into sheol/hades...the imperceptible where nothing is known, just like David said. To say they 'go' there is metaphor. There is no 'place' called sheol or hades. No 'place' called the pit, at least not one man can't dig with a shovel.
Job 26:5. Now that's metaphor and poetry. If it isn't, then the clear statements about death are contradicted. It's even poetry to say the dead are awaiting resurrection. The dead don't 'wait' as they have no thoughts...it's not even possible for the dead to think...and it takes thought to experience the passage of time in anticipation.
Ray has a short paper on the front page entitled 'An Encouraging word about Death' that should help you.
http://bible-truths.com/death.htm
Hey, I'm not Kat, but I was awake. ;D
Ian:
Kat,
I had not seen Job 32:8 before. Thank you. ^^
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on September 25, 2011, 12:32:09 AM ---Well, sure it's poetry. It is a Psalm, after all, and in Hebrew it 'sings'. But it's a statement of fact. The writer of the article is part-right...it is unwise to take a single verse of Scripture and build an understanding. He or she doesn't know what 'dead' means...and that's pretty ridiculous to me.
David DOES actually die. There IS no remembrance of God in death. What David is leaving out is that God WILL save him...in resurrection. For memory, you need a body, and a body with spirit--or it's just a hunk of meat.
Neither the righteous nor the unrighteous GO anywhere when they die. Not 'heaven', not 'hell', not a pit. They die. They 'go' into sheol/hades...the imperceptible where nothing is known, just like David said. To say they 'go' there is metaphor. There is no 'place' called sheol or hades. No 'place' called the pit, at least not one man can't dig with a shovel.
Job 26:5. Now that's metaphor and poetry. If it isn't, then the clear statements about death are contradicted. It's even poetry to say the dead are awaiting resurrection. The dead don't 'wait' as they have no thoughts...it's not even possible for the dead to think...and it takes thought to experience the passage of time in anticipation.
Ray has a short paper on the front page entitled 'An Encouraging word about Death' that should help you.
http://bible-truths.com/death.htm
Hey, I'm not Kat, but I was awake. ;D
--- End quote ---
Hello,
Thank you Dave!
I was hoping that when I saw you reading this earlier that you would not be upset over the silly question. I should not have read that Bible, it just made me even more confused.
The writer of that site apparently assumes that (as a matter of fact, I've read multiple commentators) the writers of the OT were limited in their understanding, explaining why they wrote "negatively" about death. One even went as far to state that "...the book of Ecclesiastes, mirrors the cynical pessimism of the skeptical philosopher [himself]."
(yeah, right.)
I loved your closing message ("Hey, I'm not Kat, but I was awake. ;D") ^^
Ah, one other question... What does the phrase "under the sun" mean in Ecc. 9:5-10? I've read that some interpret it to mean that "they have no knowledge about what goes on the Earth".
Dave in Tenn:
They don't have knowedge of what happens on earth. When they die, all that is gone. They're dead. They have no knowledge period. Why not? Because they're dead.
That writer sees 'cynical pessimism' in Ecclesiastes. I've been riddled with cynicism, pessimism, and depression. God has had me on my belly. He or she can't tell me squat about that, and christian doctrine had a large part to play--the largest part, actually.
Now I see faith and the beginning of wisdom in Ecclesiastes. Besides that, whoever wrote that Book of the Bible understood what 'dead' means, which makes him a heap smarter than the writer of that article. :)
Speaking of faith, this passage came to mind. Heb 11:39:40 And all these, (the faithful dead of the old covenants recounted in many earlier verses) having received approval through [their] faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better concerning us, that they should not be made perfect without us.
The dead are not going to stay dead.
Ian:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on September 25, 2011, 02:41:41 PM ---They don't have knowedge of what happens on earth. When they die, all that is gone. They're dead. They have no knowledge period. Why not? Because they're dead.
That writer sees 'cynical pessimism' in Ecclesiastes. I've been riddled with cynicism, pessimism, and depression. God has had me on my belly. He or she can't tell me squat about that, and christian doctrine had a large part to play--the largest part, actually.
Now I see faith and the beginning of wisdom in Ecclesiastes. Besides that, whoever wrote that Book of the Bible understood what 'dead' means, which makes him a heap smarter than the writer of that article. :)
Speaking of faith, this passage came to mind. Heb 11:39:40 And all these, (the faithful dead of the old covenants recounted in many earlier verses) having received approval through [their] faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better concerning us, that they should not be made perfect without us.
The dead are not going to stay dead.
--- End quote ---
Dave, please, may I send you the article?
Dave in Tenn:
I guess. I don't know what purpose it would serve. I'm fully convinced. I suspect he or she is fully convinced. I certainly can't explain these things better than Ray. But send it if you want to.
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