Church requirement?

[TruthChaser]

I was talking to a friend and we had a debate on whether it was required for believers to go to church.  I strongly disagree with this but wanted to know if there are any good bible scriptures and references I could use to point this out.  I haven't been to my home church in almost 6 months due to a few things that were revealed in scripture, specifically the tithe.  I'm new here and just looking to grow in the Lord and fellowship with others that aren't stuck in the "church" mindset.  Any assistance will be greatly appreciated. 

[JohnMichael]

Hi TC,

The verse that is probably used to state that you MUST attend church is:

Heb 10:25  Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Notice, the verse does not state "in a church" or some variation of that phrase. Our bodies are the temple of God, and God does not dwell in temples made with hands. When you are posting on this site, are you not assembling together with like-minded believers?

However, the church is part of Babylon, and we are commanded by God to "Come OUT of her My people" (Rev. 18:4), so that we are not partakers of her sins and will not receive her punishments. Isaiah also prophesied this when he stated:

Isa 52:11  Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD.

Jeremiah also prophesied:

Jer 51:6  Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD'S vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.

Babylon is a system of bondage (of which Christendom is a HUGE part), and the book of Galatians states:

Gal 5:1  Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Christ Himself, speaking of the Pharisees (Babylonian rules of that time), stated:

Mat 23:4  For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Mat 23:13  But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Hope this helps.

In Him,
John

[Dave in Tenn]

I'd recommend the entire Lake of Fire series, maybe this one in particular.

http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html

Don't expect your friend to believe it.  He or she will have their own list of verses to use to believe they are right.  If he or she understood what was being attended, and was exhorting you to attend, he or she might see things differently.    

Hopefully others will chime in, but the most important thing any of us can encourage you to do, is to read the website.  

Good to have you.  
   

[Kat]

Hi TruthChaser,

Welcome to the forum 

The unscriptural teaching of the church that you are robbing God if you do not give 10% of your income to them is indeed a good reason to mistrust them. But for me it's the other teachings that I find particularly disturbing, when you learn the truth. The worse they teach to me is that a person does not die at death, but lives on somewhere else and for most it will be in a torturous hellhole for endless punishment. I do not want to socialize with and certainly not receive instruction from people that believe in such a thing.

2Co 6:14  Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers; for what fellowship does righteousness have with lawlessness? And what partnership does light have with darkness? 

It was not until I left the church (as soon as my eyes were opened to this truth) that I began to really grow in the knowledge of the truth.

To use that "assembling together" must be done in a church building to keep people coming, is not a valid argument, but it's just about all they've got.

Mat 18:20  For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there I am in their midst.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[onelovedread]

Hi Kat
If we used 2 Cor 6:14, would we not be really ticking off Christendom. Imagine calling them unbelievers and unlawful:) That's truly drawing a line.

[GaryK]

I was talking to a friend and we had a debate

Meaningless words, and nothing but words.   Unimportant now. 

I'm new here and just looking to grow in the Lord and fellowship with others that aren't stuck in the "church" mindset.  Any assistance will be greatly appreciated. 

Ditto Dave's reply.

Read.  Let it soak in.   

Read some more.    Let it soak in even more.

Then read it some more.   All of Ray's papers.

Welcome here.   Good for you.  Good for us.

gk

[Kat]

Hi onelovedread,

Well they are not exactly "unbelievers," as they do believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. That is where we come to have our 'first love,' but it's usually right there that we fall away as well.

But I was thinking more of the "do not be unequally yoked together," because beyond believing that Christ is the Son of God I do not believe the same as the church does. There doctrines/teachings certainly reflect darkness to me.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[River]

Kat,

But do they really believe in Jesus Christ? I thought I did also when I was a churcher. But I know better now. Do they not teach another Jesus?

But anyhow..I recently addressed this same subject and quoted different scriptures showing that there is no such thing as church attendance. But I was told I was picking out scriptures to back up my argument. I think it is easily shown because you notice how the word "church" is used in scriptures. It is nothing like how it is used today. They don't say in the scriptures that we are going to church.
Any complete study on the history of the church establishment shows it clearly that it is nothing related with the scriptures as well. And the "forsake not the assembly" one doesn't make a lick of sense because you wouldn't be told by the apostles to go to a PAGAN religion. They were NOT talking about your church when this was written like so many people think. Remember folks we are told all the time on billboards and such to "go to church!" Any church they say, but just go! Now can you imagine the apostles telling you to go to any religious establishment of your choice?? A lot of the church attendance is fear of going against peer pressure, not researching, being religious etc. Show them scriptures if asked but until they know it they won't see it and then only will it click.

[Foxx]

But do they really believe in Jesus Christ? I thought I did also when I was a churcher. But I know better now. Do they not teach another Jesus?

But anyhow..I recently addressed this same subject and quoted different scriptures showing that there is no such thing as church attendance. But I was told I was picking out scriptures to back up my argument.

River, I think that they do love and believe in Christ, however, 1 Corinthians 3:2 puts it well by saying:

"with milk I fed you, and not with meat, for ye were not yet able, but not even yet are ye now able,"

So yes I believe they have the right idea but they do not understand the deep things of God. They will not and can not unless it is shown to them. It isn't that they don't believe but their belief is immature. They drink milk but are unable to eat the real meat of the gospel.

In terms of your peers stating that you are picking and choosing scriptures, well, this is a common argument for those who are unable to think of scripture to verify their own beliefs. Many people don't know why they believe what they do, they do it because they just think its right. Besides, so many millions of others do it so all those people must be right, right? WRONG!

Just because the majority do something does not make what they do right. Whenever I have gotten into these "discussions" with people and I quote verses to back up my beliefs, frustration usually mounts in those who are unable to defend their own with scripture. Instead of looking into the matter they say that your proof is wrong because....well because they say so! Laughable I know but this what you are dealing with.  Sounds like something you would hear in kindergarten, "You're wrong because you're wrong and I want to be right! so there!"

At any rate, if this is their final say in the matter I would just drop it. When you bring up something God will either open their hearts to it if they are ready to receive it or they won't if they are not ready, and if the latter is the case it isn't anyone's place to change their mind. They can't see it, even when you tell them what the Bible itself is saying. They would rather believe the doctrines of mankind then of God because they simply can't understand it. I remember in John chapter 6 it said this

"Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?"

It was just too hard to accept, follow, or believe... or so they thought. It wasn't until later that they did because at the time they were not ready yet. One day they will be made spiritually mature. They will be able to digest the meat, they will be able to hear it. For now stand up for what you believe by scripture but be prepared to be met with 1600 plus years of religious dogma and animosity.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi TruthChaser

Most of the world is still in darkness.

Our loved ones number the many within our own circle of friends and family, who we grieve and pine for their  enlightenment to Truth. Paul knew also of this agony.

You have been touched with the Light of Truth. Freedom in the Spirit is not of the world, nor in the world.

We are scattered, we are few, not in a superior, holier-than-thou meaning, but in the most humble of humble terms.

Walk away from debate, hold your peace, God gives the increase, not by might or by power, and be Blessed of God who has called you.

Arc

[G. Driggs]

Here's a nice bit from Ray.

http://www.bible-truths.com/souls.htm

LIGHT AND SALT DON'T ARGUE OR MAKE NOISE

    "Ye are the salt of the earth... Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid... Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matt. 5:1,14,16).

Salt does not make any noise, and light does not argue Scriptures. Neither salt nor light makes any sound whatsoever. Maybe there is a lesson in there.

Too many people learn a few truths of God and think that they are ready to take on the world. They usually start by trying to embarrass their Pastor with their new-gained knowledge. Usually they fall flat on their face on the very first try. It's all about motivation. If your motivation is carnal, God will not back you. Yes, I know, all of you are saying: "But my motivation is to show them God's truths." Yes, sure, I understand, but THEY DON'T WANT TO HEAR GOD'S TRUTHS, and you already know this, so what is your point? Leave them alone and let them taste your salt and see your light and admire your good works, and perchance they will even praise God for your new-found humility,

You will never argue anyone into accepting the truths of God's Word. As salesmen are often taught: "You might win the argument, but loose the sale," so don't argue. And this: "He who is persuaded against his will; is of the same opinion still."

I receive a lot of emails from people who beg me to come to their rescue because they are about to have a second session with their pastor or friend, but have failed miserably on the first go-round. Now they want me to give them the ammunition they need to do a slam-dunk on their second attempt to embarrass their pastor or friend. Give it up—that attitude is wrong. Such a carnal exhibition of prideful flesh is akin to someone looking for a street fight merely because he has just acquired a black belt in karate.

HOW TO DEMONSTRATE YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH

I personally know a man who has his little wife working two jobs to support their family so that he can study the Scriptures and enter into doctrinal debates with other Christians at the local Caf� as a perpetual hobby. Notice the admonition of the Apostle Peter:

    "Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; having your conversation [Gk: 'conduct'] honest [Gk: 'honorable'] among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may BY YOUR GOOD WORKS, [Not your clever Bible arguments], which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation" (I Pet. 2:11-12).

Your good works and righteous character will pay dividends to others eventually—if not in this life, then in the Judgment.

[Kat]

Here is a few places where Ray speaks on what the Scriptures say concerning the church.

http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html ---------------------------------------

"I know your works and where you DWELL, even where SATAN'S SEAT [throne] is: and you hold fast My name, and have not denied My faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr [Gk: 'witness'], who was slain among you, WHERE SATAN DWELLS" (Rev. 2:13).
v
Antipas is God's faithful witness. And Who does the Scripture tell us is the "faithful witness" of God? Answer:

"And from JESUS CHRIST, Who IS THE FAITHFUL WITNESS..." (Rev. 1:5).

And Antipas, Jesus Christ, was martyred IN JERUSALEM. Satan's throne and dwelling place is in JERUSALEM!
v
"And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified" (Rev. 11:08).

That city wherein our Lord was crucified was JERUSALEM!
v
"But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine and which have not known the DEPTHS of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden" (Rev. 2:24).
v
And although the Church has the milk of the word, they also have "the DEPTHS of Satan" in their "minds and hearts." It is but the remainder, the few, "the rest in Thyratira," and therefore, the rest in the seven churches, "which HAVE NOT this doctrine, and which HAVE NOT known [in their 'minds and hearts'] THE DEPTHS OF SATAN."

Virtually all Christian Churches worldwide have within their doctrines, the depths of Satan. And that is why the cry goes out from God Almighty:

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying 'COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues" (Rev. 18:4).

Come out of... who? Who is the "her?" Her is a WOMAN. A woman in Scripture is a symbol for a CHURCH.

Who is to "come out?" Answer: "MY people." Where are they? In her, in the CHURCH. What Church? The MOTHER CHURCH. Who is the MOTHER CHURCH?

The church that appears to be so good, with good doctrines, and good teachings and spiritual appearing good works and righteousness, which in reality are abominations:

"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto you the judgment of the GREAT WHORE that sits upon many waters [many nations of people]: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication [intimate religious/political/economic relationships], and the inhabitants of the earth have been made [spiritually] DRUNK with the wine of her fornication. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of ABOMINATIONS and FILTHINESS of her FORNICATION: And upon her forehead [where WE should have the name of God our Father, Rev. 14:1, but this mother church has instead...] ...a name written,

MYSTERY, BABYLON, THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (Rev. 17:1-5).
v
Now then, is "Moses" still taught in the churches of God, today? Yes, of course he is. The Law of Moses is virtually worshiped by many in the Church.
v
Today's Church teaches Moses and Christ. Nearly every person on earth that has ever heard of Christ has heard of Him through the Church. Can a deceived Church, "Teach Christ?" Well, they can, and they do. Is this a good thing? Yes, it is, even if their motives are not always perfect. Notice what Paul said regarding this:

"Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defense of the gospel. What then? Notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence or in truth, CHRIST IS PREACHED; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice" (Phil. 1:15-18).


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1304.0.html -------------

If there were churches scattered through BABYLON THE GREAT WHORE, then there would be no need for God to admonish those whom He is choosing, to "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE" (Rev. 18:4).  Are we to just come out of her spiritually, but remain good social friends with them on a weekly basis?

Church is not now and never was, a physical building to congregate in to worship God.  Could all the hundreds of thousands of Israelites congregate inside the tiny little tabernacle in the wilderness?  Could ALL JUDEA congregate in the tiny Temple in Jeruslem every sabbath?  The synagogues became corrupted and the churches today are corrupted. So where do you want to go?  If you want fellowship why not foin a social club and keep the false religion out of your fellowship.

Jesus taught us that we are to worship God in spirit and in truth, not in this mountain or in Jerusalem, or in a building, or another other "place" that is corrupted.  I can't tell people what to do. If "christian fellowship" means more to them than "godly worship," then I guess they just  have to keep looking.

Being a follower of Jesus Christ was never designed to be a "feel good religion" as many christian churches promise if you join their particular tents on living a worldly life for Jesus.  I trully never miss, "CHURCH"!  I "go to church" every time I open my Bible."


http://bible-truths.com/email9.htm#yoked ----------------------------------

All those who live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. It is happening to YOU. What do you tell them? Actually, you are not obligated to tell them ANYTHING for not meeting with them.

However, here is a Scripture that tells us what to do when we are entangled with those who do not believe the Truths of God:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with UNBELIEVERS [those who do not believe the Truths of God]: for what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion has light with darkness?  And what concord has Christ with Belial? or what part has he that believes with an infidel. And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? [or 'idols of the heart'--Ezek. 14:4, which are FALSE doctrines and FALSE teachings] for you are the temple of the living God; as God has said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.  Wherefore COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM, AND BE YOU SEPARATE, says the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and you shall be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty" (II Cor. 5:14-18).

There is your Scriptural reason for not assembling with them.

God be with you,
Ray

[TruthChaser]

Thank you for all the information.  I dont want to use this to engage in useless debate but I want to be able to back up why I dont attend a church establishment when asked.  I dont want to come off as confused.  Just need something scriptural to stand on.  Thnx again.

[River]

River, I think that they do love and believe in Christ, however, 1 Corinthians 3:2 puts it well by saying:

"with milk I fed you, and not with meat, for ye were not yet able, but not even yet are ye now able,"

So yes I believe they have the right idea but they do not understand the deep things of God. They will not and can not unless it is shown to them. It isn't that they don't believe but their belief is immature. They drink milk but are unable to eat the real meat of the gospel.

Hi Foxx,

  Thanks for your response. The above quote is the only thing I take issue with. Milk doctrines are not hell teachings and all the other unscriptural things. An inmature belief is different than a false belief. If you were feed with milk by the apostles or Jesus would you really claim they would teach and preach to you such things as the doctrine of hell? I don't think so. The churches teach another Jesus, they may believe in God and give him the name Jesus but it in no way means it is the Jesus of the scriptures. The post that Kat put up that Ray taught on proves this well.

[onelovedread]

I do not want to sound disagreeable, but this question should not have been posted. Had a most basic study of Ray's teachings been done, it would be immediately seen that this subject was continuously addressed. This is a key element of Ray's teachings and he touches on church in his emails and in almost all of his papers. I am surprised that Marques let this one pass without comment:)

[Dave in Tenn]

Onelovedread, with respect, the last thing we want to do is discourage questions related to what Ray teaches.  That is why we're here, after all.    

[Nan]

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with UNBELIEVERS [those who do not believe the Truths of God]: for what fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion has light with darkness?  And what concord has Christ with Belial? or what part has he that believes with an infidel. And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? [or 'idols of the heart'--Ezek. 14:4, which are FALSE doctrines and FALSE teachings] for you are the temple of the living God; as God has said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.  Wherefore COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM, AND BE YOU SEPARATE, says the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, and will be a Father unto you, and you shall be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty" (II Cor. 5:14-18).

There is your Scriptural reason for not assembling with them.

I think maybe the Scripture for the above is from II Cor. 6:14-18

The people in church think they are right. I did too, when I was with them. They won't be able to see the truth until the Lord opens their eyes. Maybe the best thing is to pray for them to have their spiritual eyes opened.

[onelovedread]

Dave
With respect, I have in the past asked questions and have been told that I need to go back and read Ray's teachings. I have seen it happen to other posters also. Unfortuantely, at that time, I did not see your support.
I am not coming out against anyone, but I just think we should be consistent and fair.
And I do repeat that this subject is a pet one of Ray.
I won't belabor the point, though.

[Craig]

onelovedread, Yes many times posters are referred back to Ray's teaching, but they should never be belittled by a member or a mod; and if a moderator sees that happening they should remind the poster as Dave did you.  Of course questions should be asked, but if the answer is in Ray's writings then referring back to those same writings is often the best answer to the question, that way none of us has to speak for Ray.

this question should not have been posted. Had a most basic study of Ray's teachings been done, it would be immediately seen that this subject was continuously addressed.

I think if you re-read your post you will see how the misunderstanding occurred.

Craig