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[newgene87]

I don't believe in free will anymore and I accept the sovereignty of God fully, but the one verse that stumps me how God doesn't change his mind is Genesis 6:6 - "and it repented the LORD that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart".... Even when I pay attention to the words as well as the text; it confuses me.... Why and how would the Lord repent that he made man?? Has Ray ever explained this "perceived" contradiction of the "unchangeableness" of Gods character?? (Numbers 23:19 - "God is not....a son of Adam, that he should repent...")

And why the distinction in verse 2, that "the SONS of God saw the DAUGHTERS OF MEN...."? Commentaries I come across always seem to mention angels or something to that nature? Just a little confused and I'm definitely not trying to turn to a pastor or church for an answer. Thanks

[Dave in Tenn]

It's a good question and very foundational to understanding the Scripture.

Here's the full text of the article which I am excerting below.  http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm


To the carnal mind, the above Scriptures are contradictions, and therefore proof that the Word of God is not consistently true.

Even the greatest theologians in the world deny this truth that "All is of God," because they cannot distinguish the relative from man’s doings from the absolute which is God’s doing.

In the first example man is told to seek but is also told that no man seeks. Which is it? They are both true. No man does seek God except and until God brings about circumstances wherein he does seek God. But He only does seek God because "All is of God" who brings about the circumstances whereby someone who would not seek God, now does seek God.

In the second example we are told that God changes His mind [repents], but are also told that God is not a man who repents or changes His mind. The answers are all the same. Where it appears to many that God felt sorry for ever having created mankind, He is in reality doing only that which He had determined to do from the beginning. It is only from man’s perspective that God repented or changed His mind. God always knows the "end from the beginning," and therefore is never surprised or never thwarted or frustrated requiring a change in course or a change of plans.

A few years ago someone tried to trip me up with this verse:

"They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spoke it neither came it into My mind" (Jer. 19:5).

Here, I was told, is absolute proof that God learns new things that He didn’t know before. Nonsense.

This is a simple problem of translating. The word translated "mind" in this verse is the Hebrew word leb, and it means the "heart with its feelings," not the mind. The King James very often confuses heart with mind and mind with soul, as if they were one and the same thing even though there are different words for each.

God’s plan and purpose for humanity consists of many, many things which are not after God’s own heart, but that are, nonetheless, absolutely essential for the completion of His plan:

"Say unto them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" (Ezek. 33:11).

This is God’s HEART speaking in this verse. But in the MIND of God, the death of the wicked was absolutely necessary, and a prophesied fact that could not be avoided:

"For I will lay the land most desolate, and the pomp of her strength shall cease, and the mountains of Israel shall be desolate, that none shall pass through" (Ver. 28).

This is but another of countless examples in Scripture that show God’s mind and His heart. God takes no pleasure or delight in His heart over the horrible things that continually happen to humanity, but nonetheless, these things are absolutely essential to the fulfillment of the plan that God has devised in His mind.

It is absolute blasphemy to think or teach that God is the Creator of all that is, but then takes zero responsibility for all the evils of that creation—ALL is of God.

[JohnMichael]

I don't believe in free will anymore and I accept the sovereignty of God fully, but the one verse that stumps me how God doesn't change his mind is Genesis 6:6 - "and it repented the LORD that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart".... Even when I pay attention to the words as well as the text; it confuses me.... Why and how would the Lord repent that he made man?? Has Ray ever explained this "perceived" contradiction of the "unchangeableness" of Gods character?? (Numbers 23:19 - "God is not....a son of Adam, that he should repent...")

Dave's post hit the nail on the head where he quoted Ray's explanation of this.

The Lord didn't repent like man repents in that man turns from his wicked ways. It is the HEART of the Lord that is speaking. The word that is translated "repent" also means to pity, to be grieved, to be sorry. From man's perspective, and in man's experience, these emotions are what one feels when one has done something wrong. From God's perspective, it grieved His HEART that man would have to go through this experience of evil (because He LOVES us), but His MIND knows that this MUST happen in accord with His plan and purpose - for OUR own good.

Think of it from the position of a parent. When a parent disciplines his/her child, it grieves the parent's heart that he/she has to discipline the child, but the parent knows that the discipline is necessary for the child's own good. Love knows that the pain/discipline is necessary, but it still hurts the parent to have to do it because he/she loves the child and doesn't want to see the child hurt - much less to be the one to do the hurting. "If you (US) being wicked, know to do such things... how much more does your Heavenly Father"...

That scenario gives a glimpse of the message going on in Genesis 6:6. Our Lord pitied man since He created men spiritually weak, but He also knew that this must be.

Hope that helps.

In Him,
John

[lilitalienboi16]

I don't believe in free will anymore and I accept the sovereignty of God fully, but the one verse that stumps me how God doesn't change his mind is Genesis 6:6 - "and it repented the LORD that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart".... Even when I pay attention to the words as well as the text; it confuses me.... Why and how would the Lord repent that he made man?? Has Ray ever explained this "perceived" contradiction of the "unchangeableness" of Gods character?? (Numbers 23:19 - "God is not....a son of Adam, that he should repent...")

And why the distinction in verse 2, that "the SONS of God saw the DAUGHTERS OF MEN...."? Commentaries I come across always seem to mention angels or something to that nature? Just a little confused and I'm definitely not trying to turn to a pastor or church for an answer. Thanks

Why does SONS of God, have to be angels? Besides, angels are nothing more then messengers, literally, they don't have to be "angelic" in that sense.

Here are some new testemant scriptures refering to "Sons of God."

Philippians 2:15
That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

So, These are two witnesses as to the meaning of Sons of God. Neither of them references any sort of angelic being, but rather humans.

Perhaps genesis references sons of God, as those who decended from the blood line of adam? I could be mistaken, but I just don't see it being angels fornicating with human girls. Besides; The next verse says

"And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."

Sounds like God is going to destroy everything right? Well... wheres the mention of these of half human half angel "children" that should have been created had actual angels fornicated with the "daughters of men?"

I'm just thinking here... I could be wrong but I am pretty certain Sons of God does not mean angels... I think the scriptures know more about that and I think the two versus I quoted should help put things into perspective as far as what the term means. Again in reference to genesis, it could mean those who decended from adams bloodline.

[patmokgoko]

First we need to understand that God is not a "reactor" but a "causer", second we need to draw a distinguished line between "relative and absolute" verses.
Because God has declared the end from the beginning, He also set a date and an event that will make Him say what He said in Gen 6:6. Look at this: Deut 31:16-18 God says these people will forsake me.....on that day I (God) will be angry.Judges 10:6-7 We read "And because the Israelites forsook the Lord....He became angry with them".God has already declared what is going to happen. Numbers 23:19 "Does God speak and THEN not act?". When we take "God became angry" alone without any back round it's like God was frustrated and got angry because He did not expect them to forsake Him.Looking at it closer, it is God who caused them to forsake Him,why: so that what He had declared should come to pass!I was reading with interest Exo 8:2,8:21 9:2, and 10:4, four times we read "if you Pharaoh refuse to let my people go", "if you refuse".....at face value it's like Pharaoh all by himself is refusing exit for the Israelites,but you and I know why (God has already told us He will harden the king's heart.)Your question makes perfect sense,God bless you.Time and space, bye.

[mharrell08]

I don't believe in free will anymore and I accept the sovereignty of God fully, but the one verse that stumps me how God doesn't change his mind is Genesis 6:6 - "and it repented the LORD that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart".... Even when I pay attention to the words as well as the text; it confuses me.... Why and how would the Lord repent that he made man?? Has Ray ever explained this "perceived" contradiction of the "unchangeableness" of Gods character?? (Numbers 23:19 - "God is not....a son of Adam, that he should repent...")

The Hebrew word for 'repent' is nacham. Here are a few definitions:

1. to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion
2. to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent
3. to comfort oneself, be comforted, ease oneself

It's a relative word, not easily defined in black/white settings. Just from the definitions above, some could be used to describe God ('be moved to pity'), while others would not ('rue or suffer grief'). Even in the case of humans, only certain definitions would fit the context of what is being spoken:

Gen 5:28-29  Lamech lived one hundred and eighty-two years, and had a son. And he called his name Noah, saying, “This one will comfort [Heb 'nacham'] us concerning our work and the toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD has cursed.”

Lamech did not repent of having a son. His son brought him comfort to ease him in his hard work with his hands. Besides 'being comforted or at ease', I don't see any other definition that would apply to Lamech and his son Noah. This is just an example of how relative this word 'nacham' is.

Concerning the passage of Gen 6:6, God was moved with pity ['grieved his heart' - Gen 6:6] with the people of that land. And though He knew these people would be destroyed, God does not take pleasure in doing such:

Ezek 33:11  As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live...'

And why the distinction in verse 2, that "the SONS of God saw the DAUGHTERS OF MEN...."? Commentaries I come across always seem to mention angels or something to that nature? Just a little confused and I'm definitely not trying to turn to a pastor or church for an answer. Thanks

The Sons of God were of Adam through Seth's lineage. The Daughters of Men were not. That is what led to the corrupt behavior in the people of the land. This happens again and again throughout the scripture and why God commands us to be separate from unbelievers [Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you - 2 Cor 6:17]


Hope this helps,

Marques

[IbTee]

Giants
« on: January 14, 2007, 07:03:59 PM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Ray,
         I hate to keep asking questions But, Here is another one I would like to know. I have read a lot on your web site and I could not find what I was looking for. I studied with Arnold Murray for about 10 years and I am now finding out a lot of what I thought I knew was wrong. He teaches that we were angels in the first age. And in this age we have to prove which side we are on. (which I know now is not right). He also teaches that the geber (Giants) were the result of the fallen angels mating with women. I would like to know what you think on this subject. I know you are starting to get a lot of Arnold Murray's followers coming to your website now as I have been giving them your website address. And as a matter of fact I got your website from someone else who studied with him. I no longer study with him and I know a lot of others who have stopped studying with him as well. But, After 10 years of hearing him I have a lot of stuff packed into my brain that you have not covered d. I have other questions I would like to ask you but no all at one time. Oh one more thing have you ever watched Arnold Murray and what did you think of his teachings. Russell
         

        Dear Russell:
        I think several dozen through the years have mentioned Arnold Murray's writings to me. As you have already seen for yourself, he teaches heresy, so what more can I say. It is both unscriptural and foolishness to suggest that the giants of Genesis were the result of angels fornicating with human women. First, where it says the "sons of God saw the daughters of men," it does not suggest that they fornicated together, but rather they took them for "WIVES."  And Jesus plainly told us that the Angels of heaven DO NOT MARRY. One cannot have a "wife" without marrying.
        This subject is, however, too big for an email answer. These sons of God were mortals just as the "wives" they took from the "daughters of men."  Goliath was a giant, and he was a Phillistine, not an ANGELTINE!
        God be with you,
        Ray

Marques,
 
Thank you for your clarification about the "LORD repenting", but after reading the above email, I'm confused about who the "daughters of men" are.

Please guide me to where I can read further.

Thank you for all your help.

IbTee

[lilitalienboi16]

Giants
« on: January 14, 2007, 07:03:59 PM »  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Ray,
         I hate to keep asking questions But, Here is another one I would like to know. I have read a lot on your web site and I could not find what I was looking for. I studied with Arnold Murray for about 10 years and I am now finding out a lot of what I thought I knew was wrong. He teaches that we were angels in the first age. And in this age we have to prove which side we are on. (which I know now is not right). He also teaches that the geber (Giants) were the result of the fallen angels mating with women. I would like to know what you think on this subject. I know you are starting to get a lot of Arnold Murray's followers coming to your website now as I have been giving them your website address. And as a matter of fact I got your website from someone else who studied with him. I no longer study with him and I know a lot of others who have stopped studying with him as well. But, After 10 years of hearing him I have a lot of stuff packed into my brain that you have not covered d. I have other questions I would like to ask you but no all at one time. Oh one more thing have you ever watched Arnold Murray and what did you think of his teachings. Russell
        

        Dear Russell:
        I think several dozen through the years have mentioned Arnold Murray's writings to me. As you have already seen for yourself, he teaches heresy, so what more can I say. It is both unscriptural and foolishness to suggest that the giants of Genesis were the result of angels fornicating with human women. First, where it says the "sons of God saw the daughters of men," it does not suggest that they fornicated together, but rather they took them for "WIVES."  And Jesus plainly told us that the Angels of heaven DO NOT MARRY. One cannot have a "wife" without marrying.
        This subject is, however, too big for an email answer. These sons of God were mortals just as the "wives" they took from the "daughters of men."  Goliath was a giant, and he was a Phillistine, not an ANGELTINE!
        God be with you,
        Ray

Marques,
  
Thank you for your clarification about the "LORD repenting", but after reading the above email, I'm confused about who the "daughters of men" are.

Please guide me to where I can read further.

Thank you for all your help.

IbTee

"The daughters of men" I believe is a reference to the same one made when cain knew his "wife" outside of the garden of eden. Yet how could that be so if adam and eve were first humans and we're inside the garden and cain and abel we're their only children at the time?

Well... I think ray covers this but basically the people outside the garden were of humans who could not "till the soil." Because remember in Genisis God says their was no man to TILL the soil, not that there was NO man, period.

So these daughters of men that were outside the garden, these "men" that gave birth to the woman that would eventually be cains wife, were different then adam and eve. "The sons of God."

Did you know that, scientifically, right around the time homo sapians appeared, neandrathels vanished? Right around the time homo sapians appeared we also started finding evidence of farming etc....

Interesting eh?

P.S. If i'm wrong on what I said, feel free to correct me, this is how I understand things as of now

[newgene87]

Wow oh wow. To read all of these replies, I deeply and whole heartily appreciate the answers and feedback. God bless each and every one of you for your insight and scripture references because a veil has been lifted from my eyes. Especially the response about the "daughters of men"; that's a nugget to chew on and it is relief. For the confusion on my perception of God "repenting": I accept the insight and I now have something to pray on cause I know understanding is from God, again thank you all. This is truly a loving forum; yall really are a family here and when someone is weak in one area (me for an example); there are big brothers coming to give strength . I really appreciate it cuz I did not expect the answers y'all gave . God bless you all.

[gmik]

Newbies....please don't feel bad about asking questions that you feel are "old news" to us who have been on here awhile....we need the refreshing reminders...at least I do-constantly!!

great topic and contributors!

Thanks!
gena  =)

[Revilonivek]

So ure saying that cain married a neanderthal, a native group of people from  earth with limited brain iq unable to farm but is able to maintain cities where cain went to after he killed adam??  Not the same species as adam and eve who was cloned in the likeness and image of God. What abt those neanderthals. Are they unfit to be the sons of God. God created them in the first place. So no plan for them? Im trying to make sense of this genesis story. So adam and eve are special clones created in the image of God but not these neandrathals? God created everything and there are not anything he did not create. I did notice cities already exist during adam and eve's time but who are they if adam and eve were the first people?

[lilitalienboi16]

So ure saying that cain married a neanderthal, a native group of people from  earth with limited brain iq unable to farm but is able to maintain cities where cain went to after he killed adam??  Not the same species as adam and eve who was cloned in the likeness and image of God. What abt those neanderthals. Are they unfit to be the sons of God. God created them in the first place. So no plan for them? Im trying to make sense of this genesis story. So adam and eve are special clones created in the image of God but not these neandrathals? God created everything and there are not anything he did not create. I did notice cities already exist during adam and eve's time but who are they if adam and eve were the first people?

Well I don't know if I'm allowed to do this and If I'm not, feel free to remove my post moderators but here is a quote from an outside source, on the scientific studies and understand of the human neandrethal relationship. If I can later, I will find where ray talks about the cain issue, as well as his reference of the "no humans to TILL the soil," and how he believes the emphasis is on the TILL the soil part, not the NO HUMANS part of the verse.

"Anthropologists have long speculated that early humans may have mated with Neanderthals, but the latest study provides the strongest evidence so far, suggesting that such encounters took place around 60,000 years ago in the Fertile Crescent region of the Middle East"

Source; http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/may/06/neanderthals-dna-humans-genome.

It's late, i'm tired so Ill do my best to hunt down where ray talks about these aspects of Genesis.

Again, if i'm crossing the line here with outside sources and what not, moderators feel free to edit my post and perhaps kat could be so kind as to find where ray talks about the days of creation, all the information about genesis that ray provides and the issue of cain's wife. I know ray talks about that as well in his explanation or understanding of genesis. If not I will try and get you that ASAP!

God bless!

Alex

[Revilonivek]

Excellent information, glad they are publishing this information. Its been proven. They also had a show abt this on PBS a while back.

The question remains- with the information we know. Why did the genesis story mislead us into thinking that Adam and Eve were the first people God created after creating earth? When it's evident in both the bible and history that the first humanoid species existed before the early humans. They did cave paintings, communicated in many ways, believed in gods,  and had spiritual rituals, ran cities, created tools of different kinds,  created boats, hunted and fished. Lived in tribes, did things we would do. I would agree that the early humans were the first ones to farm since they were taught by God how to till the soil. Maybe important details were taken out of genesis to fit someone's doctrine because it's already clear in Genesis that cities exist during Adam's time.

Second question, does God regard the neandrathals as part of his plan for mankind or just the early humans?

It is also known that neandrathals and early humans inter-breeded as well?


Let me know?

Thanks.

Denise

[Dave in Tenn]

Why assume the story in Genesis misleads us?  Why assume 'something was taken out' of the Scripture?

If we've been blind, it's because somebody blinded us.  They've asked us to read the words, but held their hands over our eyes and told us what was there.  Traditions of men, and theological assumptions.  It's all there in black and white.  When we stop not seeing, we'll see.

I want to be careful not to create a NEW 'tradition of man and theological assumption'.  I'd hate to get their hands off my eyes, just to replace them with my own hands.

   

   

[Revilonivek]

You're right. I just have to br patient and
God will reveal. I don't want to be biased and want to maintain a an open mind. Its just that  its the  impression I get but then again, it can even take years and an open mind to see the truth like it took ray a long time and alot of mediating to come to the eye opening truth on his website. and its not something that happens when u want it to.

Im just wanting to know if anyone has the answers I seek. If not. Ill keep seeking.

Denise