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Author Topic: babylon the great a church?  (Read 4740 times)

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jerry

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babylon the great a church?
« on: July 13, 2006, 10:25:58 PM »

Almost all christianity beleave that bablylon the great of revelations is a chrurch some even teach it to be the catholic faith like the last group I was afiliated with,but where is it ever called a church its called a woman or harlot but never a church,Ive got the book,the two babylons by hislop but he never says why he thinks its the catholic churchother that pangan practices.Im more convinced its  a great christian nation that has political power over the whole world even the name babylon comes from the nation built by nimrod the mighty hunter,which happen to be noahs' grandsom,she will come to her end by gods judgement againts her but not before she is politicly and economicly destroyed,it also says that the beast will eat her flesh and burn her with fire sounds like a sacrifice to me, makes me think its America because we are being sacrificed for the good of global government by the super rich of the world,sounds pretty strange but im keeping and open mind.I bet not many people know that the statue of liberty is a pagan godess of babylon,I think its strange to that we call our childrin babies=baby-lon,I think its also strange that the founding fathers were mostly made up of masons even our first presedent was a mason,we all know about the sorceries of the masons,and we are a fallen christian nation,just think of what a dark day that would be if america finaly fell completly we are the engine of the world everything would come to a screeching halt everything,may be why the merchants of the earth that became rich through her are crying standing afar off.One thing for sure if we do ever fall that would give golbal government that chance to take over what ever form that might take. time will tell,the bible says all prophecy will fail so its best to take what I say with a grain of salt,campareing  america and babylon  the great is kind of scary,maybe God has been involed in nation building even through all these years, I quess time will tell.....Jerry
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hillsbororiver

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Re: babylon the great a church?
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2006, 11:59:01 PM »

Hi Jerry,

I have no inside knowledge that America or Russia or China will or will not be destroyed soon in some manner or fashion but I do know that at some point in the future they (we) will all bow down to our Lord.

Babylon is more likely to represent the church world rather than the world political system, I do not know of any (NT) scripture or of any Words of Jesus that speaks of that we should worry or be concerned about nations or their political situations. There are many scriptures that speak directly to the called and chosen about spiritual things and growing in Him and loving all of our brothers and sisters. The warfare we need to be aware of and be on guard for is the warfare between our flesh and His spirit.

Joe 
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jerry

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Re: babylon the great a church?
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2006, 01:13:37 AM »

Thanks Joe for your coments to my post.If I may say the early christians that were thrown in the arena with lions,the fact that persecution in general on a grand scale is usually political,nations of the world have always used religion to control their populations,that goes for christian and nonchristian states,Jesus was crucified because the people in power felt threatened I think my thinking is correct on this,likewise the people in power persecuted the christian church because they were afraid of their political power to inflewence the concience of the masses,then because the church had grown so larg constantine must have thought hey if you cant bet them,(the more our brothers and sisters were persecuted the more they grew in numbers)if you cant bet them join them and take over which I beleave is what he did,he would be what I think is a false prophet.It could be that at some point this nation may claim certain groups are a threat to thier politacal power(natianal security) and began to go after them its very concievable when you concider the phoney war on terror going on now.remember. waco.One in a while you see on cnn how the media portrays chistians that meet in home or dont belong to a church but are true to thier faith as radicals I observed that a few days ago.this is a very interesting topic for me because Ive been studying it for a while now.............God Blessyou.... Jerry
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hillsbororiver

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Re: babylon the great a church?
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2006, 08:57:26 AM »

Hi Jerry,

It was the religous leaders of the Jews that instigated the crucifiction of our Lord, it was not the state of Rome that sought to silence Him. The priests of the Jerusalem Synagogue & His own traitorous disciple (Judas) carried out the task that was to put our Lord to death.

If you remember Pilate even tried freeing Him as he saw no guilt in the Man.

Spiritual warfare is what we really need to be concerned with although we know the Lord uses physical examples (shadows) to teach us spiritual things.

Thanks for your comments as well,

Joe
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jerry

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Re: babylon the great a church?
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2006, 12:24:48 PM »

I agree Joe it was the religous leaders that took our Lord to the pagan system to be put to death(for thier own politcal perposes.But Pilate was not any differant than the politicians of our day they play both sides to look good to both sides that way they come out being respectesd by both sides of the issue,I dont think Pilate lost any sleep over his decision,Jesus Himself said If they persecuted me (they) will persecut you..............Jerry
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hillsbororiver

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Re: babylon the great a church?
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2006, 12:36:29 PM »

I agree Joe it was the religous leaders that took our Lord to the pagan system to be put to death(for thier own politcal perposes.But Pilate was not any differant than the politicians of our day they play both sides to look good to both sides that way they come out being respectesd by both sides of the issue,I dont think Pilate lost any sleep over his decision,Jesus Himself said If they persecuted me (they) will persecut you..............Jerry

Hi Jerry,

Pilate may not have initially (lost any sleep) but when his wife did I can say with a degree of certainty that his home life had a few bumps, perhaps even a night or two on the Governor sofa.

Peace to you Brother,

Joe
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jerry

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Re: babylon the great a church?
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2006, 01:03:49 PM »

LOL yep....Jerry
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chrissiela

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Re: babylon the great a church?
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2006, 01:32:56 PM »

Hi Jerry!

Here is something that might be worth considering as it relates to whether or not this "great city" has anything to do with the "churches".

Mat 19:9  And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Did the Lord not “put away” His first “wife” (Jerusalem) for reasons of fornication?

So what is said about this "whore" this “woman”, this “great city” that might tell us who she is?

She rides on a beast that has seven heads (which are seven mountains and seven kings) and ten horns. The ten horns are particularly significant in that they are “kings having NOT received a kingdom YET”.

But having “one mind” they shall give their strength and power to the beast and for one hour they will be given power “as kings” WITH the beast.  And why does it say that they do that?

Rev 17:17  For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

But what happens? These ten horns make war with the Lamb and the Lamb OVERCOMES them (because he is the King of kings and Lord of lords… sound familiar?). And then the ten horns “shall HATE the whore” and make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

She has become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. And in her is found the blood of the prophets and the saints.

For she has glorified herself “she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow.”

And God says “Come out of her, MY PEOPLE [remember the ten horns that make war with the Lamb and are OVERCOME by Him; ten kings who has not YET received a kingdom?], that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”

In one hour she is made desolate for God hath avenged the holy apostles and prophets on her[/b]. And ‘the light of a candle shall shine no more at all” in her and “the voice of the BRIDEGROOM AND OF THE BRIDE shall be heard no more at all” in her.

And after she is made desolate and “the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride” are not longer heard in her:

Rev 19:7  Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Rev 19:8  And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev 19:9  And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

Seems he “put away” his first bride (for fornication) and He took ANOTHER??

And those that crawl into the bed the wife who has been “put away” shall commit adultery with her.

Wonder if that has anything to with “that woman Jezebel” ??

Rev 2:18  And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;

Rev 2:19  I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

Rev 2:20  Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Rev 2:21  And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Rev 2:22  Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Rev 2:23  And I will kill her children with death; and all the CHURCHES shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Blessings,
Chrissie
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jerry

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Re: babylon the great a church?
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2006, 05:39:15 PM »

Hi! Chrissie,Interesting coments,I beleave that it does have something to do with churches christian chuches,I can see what you mean by the simularities of jezabel and  babylon the great that may be because they might be influenced  by the same evil forces,there is so much here of consider.This great country was founded by christian people of all nations and has until in the last few years come to think she no longer needs God,there are things that make babylon the great being just churches in the 18th chapter of rev questionable. one the merchants of the earth became rich through her,rev 18:11-12 and verse 17 all who had ships grew rich through her,churches dont have ships and harbers, sounds like comerce to me world trade. I think its interesting how america throws money around to get her way,she has traded her great christian values for world power and riches,even our money says in God we trust but do we as a nation trust God,When  I look at the world today I cant see but one nation on the face of the earth that has commited spiritual fornicatin like america has,the spirit of jezebell in america?,how can a country that has so much influence in the world affairs and claim to be a christian nation not be mentioned in the bible?.just my own personal thoughts and questions .......Jerry 
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chrissiela

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Re: babylon the great a church?
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2006, 08:03:20 PM »

Hi again Jerry,

You said:

Quote
churches dont have ships and harbers, sounds like comerce to me world trade

Maybe "churches" do not, Jerry, but don't the "people"? Those who are in them, do business with them, are influenced by them (or vice versa), etc?

Where does this "whore" sit?

Rev 17:1  And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

So then what are the "water"?

Rev 17:15  And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

She is an adulterer because there are those who lie with her in the bed that she was cast into (if that is a proper connection)??

Rev 18:11  And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:


Even "the souls of men" are being bought/sold (Rev 18:13)  :o

Blessings,
Chrissie

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jerry

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Re: babylon the great a church?
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2006, 03:06:42 PM »

funny how some post just dissapear..LOL maybe I hit the wrong button.LOL........Jerry
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Harryfeat

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Re: babylon the great a church?
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2006, 04:04:56 PM »

Hello all,

I guess it is fair to say that Revelations was written prior to the establishment of the Roman Catholic Church and all of its spin offs.. Are we to assume that John was the forerunner Nostradamus and Revealions/Babylon is about the Catholic Church?

If you were alive while the apostles were preaching, what would Babylon mean to you?  Is BAbylon the Jewish religion, paganism, or just the close affinity to worldliness? 

I am sorry but I don't have an answer.  I am still just as confused as ever even after I read what Ray had to say about it.  Revelaions is more a source of confusion than a revelation to me.

feat.
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jerry

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Re: babylon the great a church?
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2006, 04:36:26 PM »

Hey feet,thats a good question I wonder what someone would think of  when they herd the name Babylon in the apostles day would they think fallen christian church,my quess is they would think of rome if they were a Jew because it was babylon the held thier for fathers captive the way rome did in their day,I know I what I post sound kind of strong, I was thinking about revalations last night and wondered why God wrote it the way he did,the one  thing that comes to mind is how a father comes home from work with a gift hide behind his back,and tells the child to choose which hand,the father smiles if he chooses wrong and smiles if he chooses wright,either way he gets the intended prize.People should never take an opion personal and they should never think there is better than others,we all look through the glass dimly....................Jerry
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Lightseeker

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Re: babylon the great a church?
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2006, 04:39:06 PM »

Chrissie
Quote
Here is something that might be worth considering as it relates to whether or not this "great city" has anything to do with the "churches".

Mat 19:9  And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Did the Lord not “put away” His first “wife” (Jerusalem) for reasons of fornication? And God says “Come out of her, MY PEOPLE

I don't know what you're talking about as far as "(Jerusalem) being His first wife"?  I did know that the Lord had divorced faithless Israel?  But I've not heard anything about Jerusalem.  :-\ 

~Faithless Israel~
JER 3:6,8  The LORD said to me in the days of King Josiah: "Have you seen what she did, that faithless one, Israel, how she went up on every high hill and under every green tree, and there played the harlot?
 8  She saw that for all the adulteries of that faithless one, Israel, I had sent her away with a decree of divorce; yet her false sister Judah did not fear, but she too went and played the harlot.


I am curious Chrissie as to why you said the city Jerusalem is his bride.  Is there a scripture to that effect?

I also wonder if the following verses give us more enlightenment concerning what's been talked about?  Are all those who are so facinated with 'physical Israel' and the rebuilding of a 'physical temple' and a return to 'physical sacrifices' and the hope for discovery of the 'physical Ark'...are they the faithless children?  Are they the ones talked about in the following verses?

JER 3:14-16  Return, O faithless children, says the LORD; for I am your master; I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion.
15  "'And I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.
16  And when you have multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, says the LORD, they shall no more say, "The ark of the covenant of the LORD." It shall not come to mind, or be remembered, or missed; it shall not be made again.


I worry not, about 'The Temple' being physically rebuilt, or the 'ark of the covenant' being physically made again(or rediscovered).  I am trying to make sure that I'm following His shepherds as verse 15 says.  Those who are hoping for a return to blood sacrifices in a new temple in old Jerusalem!!!...have missed the passing of the OT and the promises of the new and better covenant of the NT IMO.

Quote
In one hour she is made desolate for God hath avenged the holy apostles and prophets on her[/b]. And ‘the light of a candle shall shine no more at all” in her and the voice of the BRIDEGROOM AND OF THE BRIDE shall be heard no more at all” in her.

And after she is made desolate and “the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride” are not longer heard in her:

Is "the voice of the bridegroom and the bride heard anymore" in 'physical Israel' as so many think.  Is it possible that those who think that being a "jew after the flesh" or being "Israel after the flesh" is still some sort of enviable and honorable position yet to receive the 'promises' made to the true church?   Isn't the 'true church' the same one which was also symbolized in the OT as the 'true Jew' (as indivicuals) and the 'true Israel' (as corporate body) of the OT?  Weren't they the ones which were 'of the spirit' and not 'of the flesh'?  Are they the 'faithless ones' after the spirit today?

I've not heard anything along those lines  ???  Has Ray taught anything I have missed?
 
 
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chrissiela

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Re: babylon the great a church?
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2006, 04:54:55 PM »

Lightseeker,

I did not mean the "city" of Jerusalem. I guess I said "Jerusalem" rather than "Israel" because I was reading Lamentations.

I don't think the rest of your questions were directed to me, were they? I don't see it as being "physical" either.

Blessings,
Chrissie

PS (edited in):

Rev 3:12  Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Rev 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Seems the "holy city" is called "New Jerusalem". If there is a "new", there must be ab "old". I thought that the Jewish nation as a whole was also referred to as "Jerusalem"? Hence the mention in Lamentions of "Oh Jerusalem".

Didn't mean to be confusing and if I am wrong about that then please correct me. That is just the way I was looking at it... given the fact, as I said, that the holy city is called "New Jerusalem".

Chrissie

« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 05:30:54 PM by Chrissie »
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chrissiela

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Re: babylon the great a church?
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2006, 05:18:44 PM »

Hi Harryfeat!

I agree that "Babylon the Great" cannot possibly be refering directly to the "Catholic Church" or any other modern day church/religion.

If it does refer to a church/religion (and I think that it does, though there is probably also some "worldliness" in there too, as "fornication" or "adultery" is commited with her) then I think that it refers to the Jewish nation/religion - God's "chosen people".

Seems to me that the "mother" comes "first" so it has to  refer to the "one" with whom it all started and that is not the catholic church. It was the Jews that were God's "chosen" and to whom the oracles of God were given and it was they who were left "desolate", when they crucified their Saviour and the gospel was taken from them and given to the Gentiles.

Blessings,
Chrissie

« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 05:25:54 PM by Chrissie »
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jerry

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Re: babylon the great a church?
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2006, 05:44:16 PM »

wow! chrissie talk about spirtualizing everything,with all the confussion of words not meaning what they do in real language its a wonder that Gods people can tell what he want us to know, talk a but babylon.I quess God can do what he wants to after all He is God.Im still looking for real answers in the here and now.Most of what Ive read on revalations has been a bunch of preconcieve Ideas thats been around since martin luther :-\,Time will tell though Ill wait on the Lamb to open the seals befor I get all puffed up...........God bless Jerry
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Lightseeker

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Re: babylon the great a church?
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2006, 08:59:26 PM »

Chrissie

Quote
Dee
I am curious Chrissie as to why you said the city Jerusalem is his bride.  Is there a scripture to that effect?

Good job, I forgot about this verse which you posted.  Now I'm wondering if means something because of the fact that it is "new" Jerusalem like you noted with bold  ???

Rev 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

No corrections from me, and the questions were just me pondering things for anyone who might have a comment or correction, for me.  :o

 
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jerry

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Re: babylon the great a church?
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2006, 12:03:03 AM »

Wow,I thought revalations was supose to make things clearer to understand,the way some folk are throwing words around to fit thier on ideas is amazing,let me get this straight,first I though you were saying bablylon the great is christianity mainstream or something like that,then you said it could'nt possable be,now its Israel,then you say it all started with the catholic church,so babylon started with the catholic church when did that happen,this convesation is making my head spin LOL,Im not trying to be mean but does'nt there have to be some kind of rule for study,starting with the origin of a names like babylon,Church,Nation,Isreal,Jerusalem.I think this study should start over but not in the book of revalations but the the book of geneses....................Jerry
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