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Author Topic: overcoming sin  (Read 2071 times)

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newgene87

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overcoming sin
« on: October 22, 2011, 02:43:18 PM »

Ah man, I accidently stumbled upon a old post which was AMAZING and I can't go back to it on my phone. But it expounded a revelation how we never overcome sin; and explains brilliantly with Scriptures. I just wonder what did God mean when he spoke to Cain, "if you do well, shall you not be accepted? And if you do not well, SIN LIES AT THE DOOR. and into you is his desire, and you shall rule over him."(Genesis 4:7) I see how my companion bible says the Hebrew here for sin is "sin-offering" and young's say, "sin-bearer" (I think). But is God really saying that he was to rule over sin?? And does that apply to us? And how is that possible when we're flesh and sin dwells within us?? What is the mystery behind this verse? Thanks :)
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newgene87

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Re: overcoming sin
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2011, 12:11:04 AM »

Does anybody wanna help me with this Genesis 4:7 enigma??
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: overcoming sin
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2011, 03:03:55 AM »

This seems to be a difficult verse to translate, as every one I have renders it differently.  

Somebody may have just the answer you're looking for, but in the meantime remember that no scripture is it's own interpretation.  When I encounter these difficult sayings, I stick them in my brain and hold them there for a while until I find another witness in Scripture and Spiritual match.  Until then, for me, it's just something to think about.  

Anyways, a similar and maybe related question has been nagging me lately.  This doesn't really clarify it at present, so I'm going to have to leave that one alone,

What I think is that The Lord's question is about the state of Cain's anger and  countenance (his reaction) to the passing over of his sacrifice.

Here's the LITV rendering:

Gen 4:5  And He did not look to Cain and to his offering. And Cain glowed greatly with anger, and his face fell.
Gen 4:6  And Jehovah said to Cain, Why have you angrily glowed, and why has your face fallen?
Gen 4:7  If you do well, is there not exaltation? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is toward you; but you should rule over it.

Cain, your are angry and your face is fallen.  If you do well, isn't the opposite true--exhaltation instead of anger and a fallen countenance (Shame?  Depression?)

If you don't do well...


And I guess that's where your question comes in.  Maybe it's a bit less doctrinal and a bit more practical.  Doing well brings consequences.  Doing not well brings it's consequences too, in anger, shame, depression, cynicism.  I've known quite a bit about that.

Still, it may really SHOULD be rendered 'sin-offering'.  It's harder for me to make sense of it that way, but that doesn't mean it's 'wrong'.  Another one to stick in my brain, maybe.   :D

Maybe that helps...maybe it doesn't muddle too much.



« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 03:40:35 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

lostANDfound

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Re: overcoming sin
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2011, 10:51:28 AM »

interesting.  glowing with anger is a pretty vivid picture.  so dave, are you saying that it would have been well with cain if he had humbley accepted that the Almighty Creator wasn't "looking to" him or his offering?  it had nothing to do with his offering, and everything to do with his reaction to it being passed over?
i'm thankful for these questions/answers on this forum, revealing the assumptions i make as i read.
-vicki   
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Rene

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Re: overcoming sin
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2011, 12:12:05 PM »


But is God really saying that he was to rule over sin?? And does that apply to us? And how is that possible when we're flesh and sin dwells within us??


Hi Gene,

Here is a scripture and some comments from Ray that may help in your understanding.

René


Romans 6:14:

"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." (KJV)

"For sin over you shall not have lordship, for ye are not under law, but under grace."  (YLT)


Here is an email reply from Ray that goes into this further:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6922.0.html

If sin still has "dominion" over you (See Rom. 6), then God has not yet been victorious in your spiritual life. It doesn't mean that he is finished with you, however.  I continued to sin for years after I KNEW what I was doing was sin. I just deceived myself into being thankful for greasy grace.

My Web Master suggested I make an editorial note to my last reply to Jeremy's email on quitting sin. I was not suggesting that we become totally "sinless" when we become spiritually converted. The key is in the word I used to reference Romans chapter 6 in which it is stated that sin shall not have "DOMINION" over our lives. Now there is a difference between consciously living sin free, and committing sins even when we consciously determine not to sin. It is not humanly possible to live totally sin free.

Ray





« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 11:21:22 AM by Rene »
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JohnMichael

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Re: overcoming sin
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2011, 01:37:06 PM »

Hopefully, this will help as well. A verse that equally applies to Sin having Dominion or God having Dominion:

Mat 6:21  For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Mat 6:24  No one can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon [G3126].

G3126
μαμμωνᾶς
mammōnas
mam-mo-nas'
Of Chaldee origin (confidence, that is, figuratively wealth, personified); mammonas, that is, avarice (deified): - mammon.

Confidence: belief in oneself and one's powers or abilities; self-confidence; self-reliance
Avarice: insatiable greed for riches; inordinate, miserly desire to gain and hoard wealth.

We are in a struggle of two masters every day. With God's Spirit working in us, we desire to have Him be our Master - as He rightfully should be. We also have the carnal flesh that wants to be our master as well. When we are called into His Truth, don't we despise/hate our flesh? What did Christ say? "For either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will hold to the one and despise the other."

James was a witness to this when he said:

Jas 4:1  From where do wars and fightings among you come? Is it not from this, from your lusts which war in your members?
Jas 4:2  You desire, and do not have. You murder, and are jealous, and cannot obtain. You fight and war, yet you have not because you ask not.
Jas 4:3  You ask and receive not, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it upon your lusts.
Jas 4:4  Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever desires to be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

And Paul:

Rom 7:22  For I delight in the Law of God according to the inward man;
Rom 7:23  but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin being in my members.
Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then with the mind I myself serve the Law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

But we have Scriptural comfort in our Lord:

Isa 49:13  Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break out into singing, O mountains; for the Lord has comforted His people, and will have mercy on His afflicted.

The Lord is stronger than our flesh!

In Him,
John
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: overcoming sin
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2011, 03:26:30 PM »

interesting.  glowing with anger is a pretty vivid picture.  so dave, are you saying that it would have been well with cain if he had humbley accepted that the Almighty Creator wasn't "looking to" him or his offering?  it had nothing to do with his offering, and everything to do with his reaction to it being passed over?
i'm thankful for these questions/answers on this forum, revealing the assumptions i make as i read.
-vicki   

No, I'm not quite saying that.  It may well have everything to do with the quality of his offering when the Lord said 'If you do well...if you do not well...'  ie, ONE offering is 'doing well' and the other offering is 'doing not well'.  I just don't know.  That's certainly the 'assumption' I grew up with and am challenging.  But it all has to fit together---this scripture with others, spiritually matching and never contradicting--before I can move on with more confidence.  Until then, it's just something to 'think on'.

I'm not sure what the scripture is teaching here.  I'm mainly just trying to get at what it is actually saying.

Dave
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

River

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Re: overcoming sin
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2011, 03:46:34 PM »

I think Dave in Tenn is cool.  ;D
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JohnMichael

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Re: overcoming sin
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2011, 11:35:45 PM »

I remember being taught that the offerings brought by Cain and Abel were archetypes. Cain's offering was the offering of self [the many; ie: man's righteousness = filthy rags]. Abel's being the offering of a lamb [the few]. Remember, Ray has stated that the Bible is one giant parable.

Gen 4:3  After some time Cain brought some of his harvest and gave it as an offering to the LORD.
Gen 4:4  Then Abel brought the first lamb born to one of his sheep, killed it, and gave the best parts of it as an offering. The LORD was pleased with Abel and his offering,
Gen 4:5  but he rejected Cain and his offering. ...

Abel's sacrifice was a physical foreshadow of the Lamb of God. Notice "first lamb born." It lines up with Christ being the "Lamb of God" and the "Firstborn of many brethren."

It would seem that Cain's sacrifice represents when one tries to save one's self - "Have WE not prophesied in your name/Have WE not cast out demons in your name/etc."

This may not be accurate, but it does seem to line up with Scripture.

In Him,
John
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 11:38:32 PM by JohnMichael »
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Joel

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Re: overcoming sin
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2011, 12:32:50 AM »

Sin allways lies at our door if we don't have the Love of God in our hearts, God first, and our neighbors as ourselves.
Cain apparently didn't have love for God, and also none for Abel seeing he murdered him in a fit of rage. We can overcome anything we face if there is true Love in all our motives. Without Love we are apt to do all manner of wickedness, and sin.
John goes into this in 1 John especially chapter 3, where Cain is specifically mentioned in reference to brotherly love, or the lack there of.
God looks at our hearts, and not the mighty works we think we may be doing, must have Charity (Love) 1st Corinthians 13.

Joel
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onelovedread

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Re: overcoming sin
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2011, 03:38:55 PM »

I would also suggest that we need "spiritual food" in order to love and to overcome sin. By that I mean seeking God through His Word and through communion with Him. I've read over and over where Ray teaches that God operates all in every circumstance and that we have free choice but not free will. We cannot make an uncaused choice. So it seems to me that we have to rely on God for the desire to overcome and live victoriously. That suggests to me that we have to keep close to Him and ask Him to give us the desire to overcome and to teach us how to love Him and our neighbors. Without His help, I am not sure that we have the strength or the ability to overcome or even to love.
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