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Author Topic: Name of the Father?  (Read 4747 times)

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lilitalienboi16

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Name of the Father?
« on: October 26, 2011, 01:01:26 AM »

Does ray talk anywhere about the name of the Father? This whole paper I've seen him talk about writing, the Jesus and the Father, one God paper and stumbling upon the use of the phrase "name of the Father" has got me thinking and I don't really know to what end other then I'm curious as to what if anything ray has said is the Name of the Father?

Also, I must be quiet honest, I don't understand the supposed confusion around the relationship between Christ and the Father? The ONE GOD issue?

I always understood it to be that Christ came out of the Father, and that in the beginning through Christ but OUT from the Father came creation as we know it. That the God of the old testament is indeed Christ and that this Son of God, came down, emptied himself of his divinity and died for us to show us the Father, to show us that God does indeed love us.

I always understood the one God relationship as beeing the way it was in Genesis; This is a rough quote but basically this, "As a man shall leave his mother and father to be with his wife, that they two might be one." Two flesh, ONE.

Same idea with the Father and Son, Two beings , one spirit, one God etc...? I suppose if you said "Two Gods, one spirit.." We could have a problem as their is only one God but, I could be inventing that part up, so.. "Two beings one God." Much like stated in genesis between a man and a woman.

Am I wrong about this? Wheres ray going with all this and whats the supposed "confusion" surroudinng the one God issue?

I hope that made sense.. I know it was a mouthful.

God bless,

Alex
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 01:06:20 AM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

newgene87

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Re: Name of the Father?
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2011, 01:18:27 AM »

I ditto the question and express my confusion as well.it seems ray got too busy trying to stump trinitarions that he caused me more confusion. Jesus says, "I AND MY FATHER are ONE". Not to say that there's two Gods, but 2 "nouns", per se, is presented there. And I'm still confused how "Jesus" is the God of the Old Testament, he's the son of God, Son of the Father....wouldn't the Father be the God of the old testament??? That's my confusion. And shouldn't there be Two, yet one. Just like you pointed out, the man and woman being one flesh. And he expresses the shema,  "YHVH Elohim is one YHVH." Ray has slightly confused me how Jesus IS THAT God....then who was he "praying" to??? Like trinity has been left my mind, its always seemed foolish. But it seems that there are TWO elements that make One Being, I.e "I and the Father are One". I will continue to pray for understanding on this. Thanks :)
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Name of the Father?
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2011, 01:58:19 AM »

I ditto the question and express my confusion as well.it seems ray got too busy trying to stump trinitarions that he caused me more confusion. Jesus says, "I AND MY FATHER are ONE". Not to say that there's two Gods, but 2 "nouns", per se, is presented there. And I'm still confused how "Jesus" is the God of the Old Testament, he's the son of God, Son of the Father....wouldn't the Father be the God of the old testament??? That's my confusion. And shouldn't there be Two, yet one. Just like you pointed out, the man and woman being one flesh. And he expresses the shema,  "YHVH Elohim is one YHVH." Ray has slightly confused me how Jesus IS THAT God....then who was he "praying" to??? Like trinity has been left my mind, its always seemed foolish. But it seems that there are TWO elements that make One Being, I.e "I and the Father are One". I will continue to pray for understanding on this. Thanks :)

Jesus plainly says before Abraham was I AM. Also, we know since no man has ever heard nor seen the Father, that everything seen of God and heard of God in the old testament must therefor have been the Son, Jesus, unless we believe God contradicts Himself, and none of us here believe that. Atleast I don't think we do. I'm sure there exists many many other reasons but those are the very two off the top of my head.
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

SDDiver

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Re: Name of the Father?
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2011, 02:27:49 AM »

Love
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River

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Re: Name of the Father?
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2011, 06:42:22 AM »


Personally this is how I recognize the name of the Father. These things speak of Him! They declare Him!

John 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice

1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

John 4:24 God is spirit

1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all

Matthew 7:16 You shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Matthew 7:11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father who is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked


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JohnMichael

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Re: Name of the Father?
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2011, 12:16:44 PM »

Hi Alex,

This has been an issue that I have been extremely interested in as well. Ray stated in his letter to the forums, dated July 27, 2011: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13370.0.html

Anyway, I have finally started to write on my research paper.  I have tentatively chosen for the title of this paper:  "Solving the Enigma of God" which is a slight change from my original title "The Enigma of God Solved."  I felt that my first choice of titles too presumptuous, seeing that I don't want to come across as having totally solved this problem, as I doubt anyone will completely solve just Who God is.  What we can do is eliminate all of the popular theories of Who God is, including: [1]  a trinity of three different persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, [2]  a dual God consisting of Father and Son, excluding the Holy Spirit, and [3] the Father only, excluding both the Holy Spirit and the Son.
 
All three of these theories are wrong and unscriptural, though there are millions who are convinced that God is either #1 or #3.  God is neither #1, #2, or #3, and I can prove it.  There is no problem with excluding the Holy Spirit from the divine Godhead.  The problem or enigma lies with the fact that the Scriptures clearly show that Jesus and His Father have Both existed from the beginning;  Both are credited with creating the heavens and earth; Both exhibit all of the qualities of Deity; and Both are called God   Yet the Scriptures state a dozen times that there is but ONE GOD!  That's the enigma that needs solving.  It's not that the proponents of these three theories are evil or stupid, but rather they do not harmonize all of the Scriptures.  There are major Scriptural problems with all of the popular Christian theories as to just Who constitutes the divine nature of God--the Godhead.
 
The theory which comes closest to blaspheming the Name of God, however, is the 3rd one which not only totally denies the deity of Jesus, but lowers Him to nothing better than a lucky Jewish boy who grew up to age 33 without sinning.  He was admittedly an outstanding citizen, an honor to His race, but nothing more.  All those who have been hoodwinked into believing such an incredible lie will be be so embarrassed when they learn the truth that they will want to crawl under a rock and hide!  I assure you all, that when the time came to die for the sins of the world, the Father did not say: "Son, YOU DO IT--I'll watch from up here." 


Notice how he said that a Dual God (two beings, but one spirit) consisting of Father and Son is UNscriptural.

The Scriptures clearly state that there is no one else but the Lord: (Isa 45:5, 45:18, 44:8, 46:9, Deut 4:35, 4:39, 32:39, 1 Kings 8:60, Joel 2:27)

Yet our Lord seems to make a distinction between Himself and the Father: (John 14:28, 14:12, 16:16, 1 Cor 15:24-28, Heb 1, etc)

There is seemingly a contradiction, but we know that Scripture does not contradict. I have a suspicion to what the answer is, but I don't want to say just yet because there are still some holes - especially Hebrews chapter 1.

We also have verses such as:

John 4:24 God is Spirit
vs
2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit

Col 1:13 ...the Son of His love,
Col 1:14  in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of the sins,
Col 1:15  who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
Col 1:16  because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
Col 1:17  and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
vs
1 Cor 8:6  yet to us is one God, the Father, of whom are the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are the all things, and we through Him;

As well as:

Rom 11:34  for who did know the mind of the Lord? or who did become His counsellor?
Rom 11:35  or who did first give to Him, and it shall be given back to him again?
Rom 11:36  because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are the all things; to Him is the glory--to the ages. Amen.

Notice how it is the Lord in two passages, then it is the Father in another.

Like I said, I have an idea, but I don't want to say due to Ray not finishing his paper yet.

I'm also starting to suspect that all those verses that say, "For no man hath seen God" - the word "seen" wasn't the best choice. It is the greek word "horao" which means to "perceive"/"to discern clearly" - not as in "to see" with physical eyes.

In Him,
John
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Name of the Father?
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2011, 01:58:31 PM »

From listening to ray back in the day, he always used to say, "God is like a name," "you have to get it out of your head though that its the name of the Father."

He gave the example; "I'm smith, RAY smith, the father, but my SON is ALSO a smith, [so and so] smith. We are two people but we are both SMITH. I'm the Father smith, hes the Son smith." Something along those lines, rough quote! lol

Has ray changed his idea of how he's looking at "God?" Or did I miss understand him or is he building upon it further and taking this deeper?

I suppose I just saw it the way ray said it was or how it was in the example he gave way long ago, the way genesis said it was between a man and a woman and still do without seeing a contradiction. Am I wierd? :< lol
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Dennis Vogel

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Re: Name of the Father?
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2011, 02:11:45 PM »

Everyone needs to wait for Ray to come out with some installments on this subject.

It will be awhile, be patient.
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newgene87

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Re: Name of the Father?
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2011, 03:15:59 PM »

Okay now I have some scriptures to show including Christ own words. He says the 2 is unscriptural and he can "prove" it but why does it have to be "dual" Diety...maybe it's another word for it. Coming from the The Interlinear Bible, I'm trying to get literal as possible. In the discourse leading up to Jesus saying, "I am" says,

 "...they said, then, to Him, We of fornication not were born; one father we have - God. said to them - Jesus, If - God Father of you was, you would love Me; I for FROM - God went forth, and have come; NOR FOR FROM MYSELF I HAVE COME, BUT that One Me sent." (John 8:41-42)

Or from YLT, " IF GOD were your father, ye were loving me, for I came forth from God...neither have I come of myself, but He sent me"

Now, scripture will back their use of God being "their" father, even though they did NOT his works but only Christ did. 

"To Yehovah do you repay thus. O foolish people and not wise? IS NOT HE YOUR FATHER who bought you? He made you and established you"  (Deuteronomy 32:6) *note* YHVH being the FATHER SPOKEN OF in here. And....

"For You our Father, though Abraham not knows us and Israel not acknowledge us; You Yehovah our Father, our redeemer from the age..." (Isaiah 63:6) Ima throw in one more....

"and now, O Yehovah, you our Father, we the clay, and You our Framer..." (Isaiah 64:8)

Now with those three witnesses, I noticed and you will too that ELOHIM is not used once when referred to YHVH being the Father of Israel. Key point seeing how ELOHIM is plural (ray states claim to that each time, I KNOW NOT IN TRINITY TERMS) but it is plural which could be 2 or MANY. Now back to the shema, "YHVH our Elohim one YHVH" (Deuteronomy 6:4). NOW to my point, the gospel of John is major on Christ showing a duality. 

(John8:16) - "...I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent Me." then he says, "it is also written in your law, that THE TESTIMONY OF TWO IS TRUE. I am one that bear witness of Myself, AND the Father that sent Me bears witness of Me. then said they unto Him, 'Where is Your Father?... (v. 17-19) now read down and through he says, I and the father, I and my father, even gives the scripture the witness of two....and even HE says If God were your Father..(v.42). And THEN HE SAYS, "If I honor myself, my honor is nothing: it is My father that honors Me; of whom YE SAY, THAT HE IS YOUR GOD (v.54). Scripture declares the God of Israel is the YHVH of scripture and that He is their Father. Jesus came forth from this God, he is the Son of the Father. It can be SCRIPTURAL because John 4:24 stats, "God is Spirit". I never said Two PERSONS. Now ray says thats NOT scriptural ......I wanna know how???? And then from the same breath I believe ray says that Jesus is not Father....least I hope so. Cuz that would be unscriptural. Let me repeat, i DON'T accept a trinity; I do say that theirs a major reason Jesus quoted "witness of two" ....and other scripture states, "the Lords Christ" who Jesus is. Well I'll end it there. 
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newgene87

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Re: Name of the Father?
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2011, 03:22:04 PM »

Ooops error, "same breath I believe ray says that Jesus is not Father....least I hope so. Cuz that would be unscriptural." I meant, it 'would' be scriptural to say that Jesus is not the Father. Then if he's not....two could compose of one. It would be unscriptural to say Jesus is his own father....
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mharrell08

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Re: Name of the Father?
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2011, 04:01:06 PM »

Acts 17:21  For all the Athenians and the foreigners who were there spent their time in nothing else but either to tell or to hear some new thing...

This is not meant to offend or ridicule, just something to be aware of. Religious hobbyists spend more time speculating than anything else, as this scripture attests to. Being content in sound doctrine and patience towards new revelation are signs of spiritual maturity.

Again, not meant to offend but a reminder to how weak the flesh is, even when it comes to talking about God.
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Craig

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Re: Name of the Father?
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2011, 04:08:19 PM »

Ecclesiastes 1:9 (NIV)

9 What has been will be again,
   what has been done will be done again;
   there is nothing new under the sun.
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River

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Re: Name of the Father?
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2011, 06:50:22 PM »

Acts 17:21  For all the Athenians and the foreigners who were there spent their time in nothing else but either to tell or to hear some new thing...

This is not meant to offend or ridicule, just something to be aware of. Religious hobbyists spend more time speculating than anything else, as this scripture attests to. Being content in sound doctrine and patience towards new revelation are signs of spiritual maturity.

Again, not meant to offend but a reminder to how weak the flesh is, even when it comes to talking about God.

I remember knowing sound doctrine and it got smashed to bits. I know speculating got me to this website. Could someone be considered a religious hobbyist for having a real desire to know and learn the scriptures? What is the standard for spiritual maturity? Going along with the peer pressure? Keeping quiet until someone who has been designated as more important speaks up? This is not a mock or sarcastic response. This is real, I mean I can see these same sort of lines being thrown at Jesus from the Pharisees. Often this journey is very difficult to handle. No offense intended either with this post.
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Name of the Father?
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2011, 07:06:48 PM »

Ladies and gentlemen, please. Let us not derail this thread. Though I know speculation often times avails no good reward, as river has pointed out, speculation can sometimes lead to new revelation.

I started this thread with the intention of finding out what ray has said about the name of the Father, if anything at all. It seems so far no one has been able to point me to anything specific ray has said about this name so I must assume He has said nothing specific on it.

That being said, I was also trying to understand what if anything about the relationship between Christ and His Father with my current understanding could be considered contradictory in nature. I also don't understand the confusion that I've tried to understand around what ray claims is the apparent contradiction we currently face.



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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

lilitalienboi16

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Re: Name of the Father?
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2011, 07:10:30 PM »

Everyone needs to wait for Ray to come out with some installments on this subject.

It will be awhile, be patient.

I will be patient, just trying to gather what current information their actually is out there and to try and understand the apparent confusion.

:)
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Craig

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Re: Name of the Father?
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2011, 09:07:18 PM »

Quote
Keeping quiet until someone who has been designated as more important speaks up? This is not a mock or sarcastic response. This is real, I mean I can see these same sort of lines being thrown at Jesus from the Pharisees. Often this journey is very difficult to handle. No offense intended either with this post.

No offense taken, but yes we need to to keep quiet until Ray speaks up on this subject.  When everyone joined the forum they agreed to the rules set forth.  The forum will never be everything to everyone and most answers in scripture will never be answered here.   So do we continue to study?  Of course, I study many areas that Ray does not teach on, but I do not bring my revalations, thoughts or ideas to the forum.  I have no authority to teach and if I did God would provide me a way to do it, I can give you my opinion on your question but that and .99 cents would get you something off the value menu at Wendy's.  I don't discount anyone's opinions and enjoy thought provoking discussion but if Ray has not taught on it I use means other than this forum to discuss them.  BTW, there is plenty here that Ray has taught on and keeps most quite busy.

Alex you said
Quote
speculation can sometimes lead to new revelation.

Yes I believe you are right, but these new revelations are not to be brought to the forum.  The reason is to keep the forum focused.  Discussions can be had by PM or other communications and fellowship, I do this most of the time.  

Marques posted something everyone should take to heart
Quote
spent their time in nothing else but either to tell or to hear some new thing...

Spending time telling or hearing some new thing, but how much time do we spend becoming Christlike and dieing to self?  

Questions are good and should always be asked, but if the answer is that it has not been taught yet by Ray then we have to leave it alone on the forum and seek on our own if we wish.  

Hope everyone understands.
Craig
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River

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Re: Name of the Father?
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2011, 12:30:10 AM »

Hey Craig,

If I somehow crossed the line I apologize. Thanks for speaking in a manner you did. I respect that.
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newgene87

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Re: Name of the Father?
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2011, 01:07:46 AM »

I totally agree on the apology. I didn't mean for a big speculation. I will have patience for revelation of the truth. Grace and Peace unto all :) :)
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lauriellen

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Re: Name of the Father?
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2011, 07:11:31 PM »

I think the "friends of L. Ray Smith" page on facebook is a good open forum for members here to discuss/share ideas that are not allowed here. It is a shame it is not used more. I respect the closed/private content aspect of this forum, and think it is rightly so....but i don't think it should prevent the discussion in other forums.
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SDDiver

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Re: Name of the Father?
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2011, 09:15:43 PM »

I think the "friends of L. Ray Smith" page on facebook is a good open forum for members here to discuss/share ideas that are not allowed here. It is a shame it is not used more. I respect the closed/private content aspect of this forum, and think it is rightly so....but i don't think it should prevent the discussion in other forums.

Do you have a link to that page (if that's allowed)? It doesn't come up under that name when searching on facebook.
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