> General Discussions

Name of the Father?

<< < (2/5) > >>

JohnMichael:
Hi Alex,

This has been an issue that I have been extremely interested in as well. Ray stated in his letter to the forums, dated July 27, 2011: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13370.0.html

Anyway, I have finally started to write on my research paper.  I have tentatively chosen for the title of this paper:  "Solving the Enigma of God" which is a slight change from my original title "The Enigma of God Solved."  I felt that my first choice of titles too presumptuous, seeing that I don't want to come across as having totally solved this problem, as I doubt anyone will completely solve just Who God is.  What we can do is eliminate all of the popular theories of Who God is, including: [1]  a trinity of three different persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, [2]  a dual God consisting of Father and Son, excluding the Holy Spirit, and [3] the Father only, excluding both the Holy Spirit and the Son.
 
All three of these theories are wrong and unscriptural, though there are millions who are convinced that God is either #1 or #3.  God is neither #1, #2, or #3, and I can prove it.  There is no problem with excluding the Holy Spirit from the divine Godhead.  The problem or enigma lies with the fact that the Scriptures clearly show that Jesus and His Father have Both existed from the beginning;  Both are credited with creating the heavens and earth; Both exhibit all of the qualities of Deity; and Both are called God   Yet the Scriptures state a dozen times that there is but ONE GOD!  That's the enigma that needs solving.  It's not that the proponents of these three theories are evil or stupid, but rather they do not harmonize all of the Scriptures.  There are major Scriptural problems with all of the popular Christian theories as to just Who constitutes the divine nature of God--the Godhead.
 
The theory which comes closest to blaspheming the Name of God, however, is the 3rd one which not only totally denies the deity of Jesus, but lowers Him to nothing better than a lucky Jewish boy who grew up to age 33 without sinning.  He was admittedly an outstanding citizen, an honor to His race, but nothing more.  All those who have been hoodwinked into believing such an incredible lie will be be so embarrassed when they learn the truth that they will want to crawl under a rock and hide!  I assure you all, that when the time came to die for the sins of the world, the Father did not say: "Son, YOU DO IT--I'll watch from up here." 


Notice how he said that a Dual God (two beings, but one spirit) consisting of Father and Son is UNscriptural.

The Scriptures clearly state that there is no one else but the Lord: (Isa 45:5, 45:18, 44:8, 46:9, Deut 4:35, 4:39, 32:39, 1 Kings 8:60, Joel 2:27)

Yet our Lord seems to make a distinction between Himself and the Father: (John 14:28, 14:12, 16:16, 1 Cor 15:24-28, Heb 1, etc)

There is seemingly a contradiction, but we know that Scripture does not contradict. I have a suspicion to what the answer is, but I don't want to say just yet because there are still some holes - especially Hebrews chapter 1.

We also have verses such as:

John 4:24 God is Spirit
vs
2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit

Col 1:13 ...the Son of His love,
Col 1:14  in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of the sins,
Col 1:15  who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
Col 1:16  because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
Col 1:17  and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
vs
1 Cor 8:6  yet to us is one God, the Father, of whom are the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are the all things, and we through Him;

As well as:

Rom 11:34  for who did know the mind of the Lord? or who did become His counsellor?
Rom 11:35  or who did first give to Him, and it shall be given back to him again?
Rom 11:36  because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are the all things; to Him is the glory--to the ages. Amen.

Notice how it is the Lord in two passages, then it is the Father in another.

Like I said, I have an idea, but I don't want to say due to Ray not finishing his paper yet.

I'm also starting to suspect that all those verses that say, "For no man hath seen God" - the word "seen" wasn't the best choice. It is the greek word "horao" which means to "perceive"/"to discern clearly" - not as in "to see" with physical eyes.

In Him,
John

lilitalienboi16:
From listening to ray back in the day, he always used to say, "God is like a name," "you have to get it out of your head though that its the name of the Father."

He gave the example; "I'm smith, RAY smith, the father, but my SON is ALSO a smith, [so and so] smith. We are two people but we are both SMITH. I'm the Father smith, hes the Son smith." Something along those lines, rough quote! lol

Has ray changed his idea of how he's looking at "God?" Or did I miss understand him or is he building upon it further and taking this deeper?

I suppose I just saw it the way ray said it was or how it was in the example he gave way long ago, the way genesis said it was between a man and a woman and still do without seeing a contradiction. Am I wierd? :< lol

Dennis Vogel:
Everyone needs to wait for Ray to come out with some installments on this subject.

It will be awhile, be patient.

newgene87:
Okay now I have some scriptures to show including Christ own words. He says the 2 is unscriptural and he can "prove" it but why does it have to be "dual" Diety...maybe it's another word for it. Coming from the The Interlinear Bible, I'm trying to get literal as possible. In the discourse leading up to Jesus saying, "I am" says,

 "...they said, then, to Him, We of fornication not were born; one father we have - God. said to them - Jesus, If - God Father of you was, you would love Me; I for FROM - God went forth, and have come; NOR FOR FROM MYSELF I HAVE COME, BUT that One Me sent." (John 8:41-42)

Or from YLT, " IF GOD were your father, ye were loving me, for I came forth from God...neither have I come of myself, but He sent me"

Now, scripture will back their use of God being "their" father, even though they did NOT his works but only Christ did. 

"To Yehovah do you repay thus. O foolish people and not wise? IS NOT HE YOUR FATHER who bought you? He made you and established you"  (Deuteronomy 32:6) *note* YHVH being the FATHER SPOKEN OF in here. And....

"For You our Father, though Abraham not knows us and Israel not acknowledge us; You Yehovah our Father, our redeemer from the age..." (Isaiah 63:6) Ima throw in one more....

"and now, O Yehovah, you our Father, we the clay, and You our Framer..." (Isaiah 64:8)

Now with those three witnesses, I noticed and you will too that ELOHIM is not used once when referred to YHVH being the Father of Israel. Key point seeing how ELOHIM is plural (ray states claim to that each time, I KNOW NOT IN TRINITY TERMS) but it is plural which could be 2 or MANY. Now back to the shema, "YHVH our Elohim one YHVH" (Deuteronomy 6:4). NOW to my point, the gospel of John is major on Christ showing a duality. 

(John8:16) - "...I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent Me." then he says, "it is also written in your law, that THE TESTIMONY OF TWO IS TRUE. I am one that bear witness of Myself, AND the Father that sent Me bears witness of Me. then said they unto Him, 'Where is Your Father?... (v. 17-19) now read down and through he says, I and the father, I and my father, even gives the scripture the witness of two....and even HE says If God were your Father..(v.42). And THEN HE SAYS, "If I honor myself, my honor is nothing: it is My father that honors Me; of whom YE SAY, THAT HE IS YOUR GOD (v.54). Scripture declares the God of Israel is the YHVH of scripture and that He is their Father. Jesus came forth from this God, he is the Son of the Father. It can be SCRIPTURAL because John 4:24 stats, "God is Spirit". I never said Two PERSONS. Now ray says thats NOT scriptural ......I wanna know how???? And then from the same breath I believe ray says that Jesus is not Father....least I hope so. Cuz that would be unscriptural. Let me repeat, i DON'T accept a trinity; I do say that theirs a major reason Jesus quoted "witness of two" ....and other scripture states, "the Lords Christ" who Jesus is. Well I'll end it there. 

newgene87:
Ooops error, "same breath I believe ray says that Jesus is not Father....least I hope so. Cuz that would be unscriptural." I meant, it 'would' be scriptural to say that Jesus is not the Father. Then if he's not....two could compose of one. It would be unscriptural to say Jesus is his own father....

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page