If You Are Afraid of What Evolution Implies, Don't Be

[musicman]

What it implies is that God imposed an order to how life became what it is.  I have come to find out over the last few years that evolution is unquestionably true.  Just not the way we are told in popular science journals.  There is ample proof that we share common ancestry with the great apes.  But there is no way that large scale changes happened gradually.  If this post remains long enough for folks to read it, they might be interested in checking out Perry Marshal's Cosmic Fingerprints.

[G. Driggs]

That Cosmic Fingerprints website is very interesting, thanks for sharing. I couldnt help but to notice he says a lot of the same things Ray has said about creation, time and cause and effect.

I really liked this quote:

God: Not Confined by Time

My sons and the atheists are assuming that God is confined to time in the same way that we are. But the Bible and the equations of General Relativity tell us that the entity that brought the universe into existence is not confined in time like we are, or the way that the universe is.

God can move and operate in at least two dimensions of time. In two dimensions of time, time becomes a plane, like a sheet of paper, length and width. In a plane, you can have as many lines as you want and as many directions as you want.

It would be possible for God to dwell on a time line running through a sheet of paper that's infinitely long, and that never crosses or touches the timeline of our universe. As such, God would have no beginning, no end and he would not be created. Sound familiar?

[Dennis Vogel]

There is ample proof that we share common ancestry with the great apes.

We share genes and DNA with a blade of grass but that does not prove we descended from one.

[indianabob]

Thanks for the reasoning Dennis,
That we share similarities with other species only demonstrates that we have the same intelligent designer, creator. God uses what works in the environment that He created for us. The mental capacity of the great apes doesn't evolve outside of what God has programmed into their brains. They have what they need for the purpose that God assigned to them. Any learning they display is greatly influenced by their tutors, mankind. Once they are returned to the wild they and their offspring revert to the natural state.
Indiana Bob

[DougE6]

God patiently waited 5 billion years after the earth was created for the ones, His future family, His sons and daughters, to be born, which is the point of it all! The entire cosmos was created for the bringing about of God's greatest work, US when we are completed in His image. I think it is fascinating that God could do such an act, in such a way that seems utterly glorious to those whose eyes are opened, in showing His eternal power and greatness, yet the immense ages and interactions of natural law allow coathooks for the darkened understanding to hang their garments of unbelief, so they can merrily go on in their sin.

BUT all these immense ages of time give me pause. too.  If God was willing to be that patient, and exert that much time to make things come to fruition, maybe we REALLY ought to strive to make our calling and election sure. Sometimes I think people who know eternal fire is a myth tend to minimize the glory and height of this prize, to be in the First resurrection. If God is as patient as He has demonstrated, then He might be a LOT more patient than we realize in applying judgement to sin and sinners, in the Next life. The Scriptures testify that it is a glorious thing, this Salvation, that we seek and take hold of. I speaking for myself, have a whole lot of fear and trembling when it comes to God, because he has demonstrated that He has a timetable that is WAY beyond us... and even though He will achieve His objective of complete reconciliation with everyone, there is no assurance that that process may be a VERY long time, compared to the time scales we are used too. Just some sobering thoughts when you are tempted to take it too lightly, what you have been given.

[mharrell08]

BUT all these immense ages of time give me pause. too.  If God was willing to be that patient, and exert that much time to make things come to fruition, maybe we REALLY ought to strive to make our calling and election sure. Sometimes I think people who know eternal fire is a myth tend to minimize the glory and height of this prize, to be in the First resurrection. If God is as patient as He has demonstrated, then He might be a LOT more patient than we realize in applying judgement to sin and sinners, in the Next life. The Scriptures testify that it is a glorious thing, this Salvation, that we seek and take hold of. I speaking for myself, have a whole lot of fear and trembling when it comes to God, because he has demonstrated that He has a timetable that is WAY beyond us... and even though He will achieve His objective of complete reconciliation with everyone, there is no assurance that that process may be a VERY long time, compared to the time scales we are used too. Just some sobering thoughts when you are tempted to take it too lightly, what you have been given.

Doug, why do you continue to make these baseless assumptions? You haven't the slightest clue as to what God's timetable will be in the ages to come, so why imply otherwise?

How many times will you tell the members that you 'strive' to be in the First Resurrection? Why are some 'taking it lightly' while, obviously, only you give it serious consideration? Do you know how condescending you sound?

I'm going to make this as simple to understand as possible: The reason why NO ONE ELSE continues to go on and on about how they are 'striving' to be God's Elect is NOT because they think the myth of free will gives them a 'free ride'. I know you falsely assume this because you say so every chance you get. The reason is because WE ARE SINNERS!

Everyone has something that they have yet to overcome. God has yet to give us the victory over something in our lives, though that does not mean He won't, eventually. But NONE OF US know when that victory will come. We have all 'tried', 'strived', & 'willed' as best we could, but alas, we cannot overcome these sins in our lives. God will not give us what we need to overcome these sins until we learn to despise them as He does....until the desire to do that which is righteousness is above and beyond the desire to sin. This learning can take considerable time and for some, will not be accomplished until the next age. Either way, this age or the next, it is all on His timing...no matter how much we 'strive'.

No one is minimizing any of God's glory to be bestowed upon us. But we do minimize our own efforts because they don't bring us any closer to righteousness. Only when we humble ourselves does God then lift us up. And even the 'humbling of ourselves' only takes place when God gives us the proper perspective of who we are, who He is, and how much we fall short of His glory. God makes the first step, not us....and even after, our own steps are directed by Him. Truly all is of God.


Marques

[Samson]

BUT all these immense ages of time give me pause. too.  If God was willing to be that patient, and exert that much time to make things come to fruition, maybe we REALLY ought to strive to make our calling and election sure. Sometimes I think people who know eternal fire is a myth tend to minimize the glory and height of this prize, to be in the First resurrection. If God is as patient as He has demonstrated, then He might be a LOT more patient than we realize in applying judgement to sin and sinners, in the Next life. The Scriptures testify that it is a glorious thing, this Salvation, that we seek and take hold of. I speaking for myself, have a whole lot of fear and trembling when it comes to God, because he has demonstrated that He has a timetable that is WAY beyond us... and even though He will achieve His objective of complete reconciliation with everyone, there is no assurance that that process may be a VERY long time, compared to the time scales we are used too. Just some sobering thoughts when you are tempted to take it too lightly, what you have been given.

Doug, why do you continue to make these baseless assumptions? You haven't the slightest clue as to what God's timetable will be in the ages to come, so why imply otherwise?

How many times will you tell the members that you 'strive' to be in the First Resurrection? Why are some 'taking it lightly' while, obviously, only you give it serious consideration? Do you know how condescending you sound?

I'm going to make this as simple to understand as possible: The reason why NO ONE ELSE continues to go on and on about how they are 'striving' to be God's Elect is NOT because they think the myth of free will gives them a 'free ride'. I know you falsely assume this because you say so every chance you get. The reason is because WE ARE SINNERS!

Everyone has something that they have yet to overcome. God has yet to give us the victory over something in our lives, though that does not mean He won't, eventually. But NONE OF US know when that victory will come. We have all 'tried', 'strived', & 'willed' as best we could, but alas, we cannot overcome these sins in our lives. God will not give us what we need to overcome these sins until we learn to despise them as He does....until the desire to do that which is righteousness is above and beyond the desire to sin. This learning can take considerable time and for some, will not be accomplished until the next age. Either way, this age or the next, it is all on His timing...no matter how much we 'strive'.

No one is minimizing any of God's glory to be bestowed upon us. But we do minimize our own efforts because they don't bring us any closer to righteousness. Only when we humble ourselves does God then lift us up. And even the 'humbling of ourselves' only takes place when God gives us the proper perspective of who we are, who He is, and how much we fall short of His glory. God makes the first step, not us....and even after, our own steps are directed by Him. Truly all is of God.


Marques

Thanks for the above Marques, Well said and accurate Too. I would like to add the following verses from The Concordant Literal Translation to further emphasize some of the points you've expressed in the above Post. Read Below !

James. 4:12-15 12 One is Lawgiver and Judge, Who is able to save and to destroy. Now who are you who are judging an associate?
13 Come now, you who are saying, "Today or tomorrow we will be going into this or that city and should be spending a year there, and we will be trafficking and getting gain" --
14 who are not versed in that which is the morrow's, for what is your life? For a vapor are you, which is appearing briefly and thereupon disappearing--
15 instead of your saying, "IF THE LORD SHOULD EVER BE WILLING, and we shall be living, we also shall be doing this or that."

Ephesians. 2:8-10 8 For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present,
9 not of works, lest anyone should be boasting.
10 FOR HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Philippians. 2:12,13 12 So that, my beloved, according as you always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, with fear and trembling, be carrying your own salvation into effect,
13 for it is GOD WHO IS OPERATING IN YOU TO WILL as well as to work for the sake of His delight.

2 Timothy. 1:8,9 8 You may not be ashamed, then, of the testimony of our Lord, nor yet of me, His prisoner, but suffer evil with the evangel in accord with the power of God,
9 Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, NOT IN ACCORD WITH OUR OWN ACTS, but in accord with HIS OWN PURPOSE and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian,

( Note: Caps above for emphasis are mine).

Thanks again for the above clarifying response, Samson.

[Daddysgirl]

Marques

Thanks for the edification and indisputable truth. Thanks to you too Samson for the supporting scriptures.

Matty

[DougE6]

Quote from Marques referring to my post "The reason why NO ONE ELSE continues to go on and on about how they are 'striving' to be God's Elect is NOT because they think the myth of free will gives them a 'free ride'. I know you falsely assume this because you say so every chance you get" Unquote...

Oops!< When I wrote that post free will and how others respond to free will was NOT in my mind whatsoever....

What was in my mind was great sobriety when considering the ages of creation; which only magnifies the PRIVELIGE the glory and honor of being in the First resurrection, and how the long ages that God has used already in doing His works gives me sobering pause...I as well as most people who read these posts understand that eonian does not mean eternal, but it relates to an ages or ages...and so considering the ages that God has used to bring us to where we are right now, it did not seem out of line to point out that EONIAN JUDGEMENT was something to be feared, that could mean an awful long time; that God is Holy and will have us a spotless bride, NO MATTER HOW LONG HE DECIDES TO MAKE IT TAKE.  I was not referring to free will at all. I was exhorting others to yes STRIVE with all your heart to please him, to make your calling and election sure. I do believe there is/are many a scripture that tells us exactly that.

I want to please Jesus, to be an OVERCOMER, just as He was.  Gods great ages of creation sober me and Jesus LOVING OBEDIENCE to His Father make me want to be like Jesus too.  I DO NOT want to be lukewarm and spewed from his mouth like vomit (Revelation 3:16).

Do I feel their NOT enough chatter on these boards about overcoming sin, and obeying Christ? LET each person judge for themselves on that. I think it is entirely scriptural for each of us to search ourselves and see if we are giving proper due to obedience and LOVE for Christ. Are we forsaking the world and dying to the flesh, or not? As you Marques, wisely brought forth, do we hate the sin in each of us? Do we? Do we!? If not, why not? This question is NOT aimed at you, or anyone, it is aimed at all of us, individually and collectively.

It was not my intent to go into the whole Free WILL thing at all. I find it is not productive to do while I judge myself.  I am ONLY looking at my heart, as I judge myself. Speaking for myself, I am not looking for whys, I am looking for HELP from HIM, wherever I fall short.  Bottom Line, do I love righteousness and actually hate wickedness? Do I love Him more than the world? Am I dying to my flesh?

I truly feel it is INDISPUTABLE if one is going to be part of the First Resurrection then your heart and actions will be in line with such a noble calling, and you WILL have a heart that desires OVERCOMING more than anything else in the world. 

I suppose my following illustration might be misunderstood but I will try anyway, this being Veterans day, well, almost. I think being part of the First resurrection is much like receiving the highest medal the US government gives its soldiers, the Congressional Medal of Honor.   Did the recipients of this medal do something to earn it? well, of course! very brave, very difficult, things that put their lives at great risk, essentially they died to themselves to help their comrades. Most recipients bear the marks in their body, and yet have the humility and bravery that escapes most of us all.

Did not Ray, also say, that getting saved is the HARDEST thing each of us will ever do? I believe He will stand behind that statement.

Sorry if you found my post offensive. It was NOT aimed at anyone in particular and was not aimed at free will, which you have assumed. I think it is wonderful that many people have Great Knowledge, and this knowledge includes the understanding that God will save everyone. But that knowledge is NOT going to make you automatically in the First resurrection. Your works, your love for Jesus and your fellow man, your sacrifice, YES ALL THIS IS IN HIS STRENGTH< is what will be required to be there.

I don't know what else to say. I do not care how much head knowledge I have.  I want HEART KNOWLEDGE, the heart knowledge that causes me to abandon ALL my besetting sins, that causes me to live in obedience and to do works that Jesus will be proud to say..Well Done my Good and Faithful Servant.

Peace

[arion]

Everyone has something that they have yet to overcome. God has yet to give us the victory over something in our lives, though that does not mean He won't, eventually. But NONE OF US know when that victory will come. We have all 'tried', 'strived', & 'willed' as best we could, but alas, we cannot overcome these sins in our lives. God will not give us what we need to overcome these sins until we learn to despise them as He does....until the desire to do that which is righteousness is above and beyond the desire to sin. This learning can take considerable time and for some, will not be accomplished until the next age. Either way, this age or the next, it is all on His timing...no matter how much we 'strive'.

Truth!!  And that which was once again made perfectly clear to me again this week as to how far I yet have to travel and how much I have yet to overcome.  I really think that once we have truly been confronted with the beast within and the evil that dwells within us all we'll know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if God doesn't do his work in us....it's not going to get done.  That is pretty deflating to the human ego but that is a lesson we must learn and learn very well beyond any possibility of question.  No flesh is going to glory in his presence indeed.

[Ireland]

Marques and Samson, Thank you! Man, some people just go on and on trying to tell people what and how to do it. Maybe we all have done that at some point, but sheesh, it just wears me out. This would usually be a pm from me so as not to cause a stir, but I just had to respond with an Amen. I wish some of these people would start there own website and teach everyone how to live.

[mharrell08]

I as well as most people who read these posts understand that eonian does not mean eternal, but it relates to an ages or ages...and so considering the ages that God has used to bring us to where we are right now, it did not seem out of line to point out that EONIAN JUDGEMENT was something to be feared, that could mean an awful long time; that God is Holy and will have us a spotless bride, NO MATTER HOW LONG HE DECIDES TO MAKE IT TAKE.

Do you not see anything wrong with using FEAR as motivation to serve the Lord? God has not given us a spirit of fear [2 Tim 1:7] though the enemy constantly tries to use it. Why do you think Satan and his ministers use fear to have us 'serve the Lord'? Because everyone hates what makes them afraid and that's exactly what Satan wants.

Have you not read Ray's last installment of the Lake of Fire series, that explains how all the fires used in symbolism (Gehenna Fire, Fire never Quenched, Eternal/Eonian Fire, etc.) are all the SAME fire and we ALL (saints and the wicked) have to go through it?

You have not a clue of the conditions that God will place people into, in the next age, and because you don't, you attempt to use fear to 'motivate' others. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but not everyone who is not of the Elect will be 'weeping and gnashing' their teeth. Most people of the world are blind sheep and will not have the same fate as the false shepherds who rule over them.

  I was not referring to free will at all. I was exhorting others to yes STRIVE with all your heart to please him, to make your calling and election sure. I do believe there is/are many a scripture that tells us exactly that.

I want to please Jesus, to be an OVERCOMER, just as He was.  Gods great ages of creation sober me and Jesus LOVING OBEDIENCE to His Father make me want to be like Jesus too.  I DO NOT want to be lukewarm and spewed from his mouth like vomit (Revelation 3:16).

And Who places this effort to strive in us? Who makes us want to be like Jesus? Again, God ALWAYS makes the first step, not you. Your very words indicate you do not understand this, and why you refuse to believe that God calls people unto good works on His time, not theirs.

Do I feel their NOT enough chatter on these boards about overcoming sin, and obeying Christ? LET each person judge for themselves on that. I think it is entirely scriptural for each of us to search ourselves and see if we are giving proper due to obedience and LOVE for Christ. Are we forsaking the world and dying to the flesh, or not? As you Marques, wisely brought forth, do we hate the sin in each of us? Do we? Do we!? If not, why not? This question is NOT aimed at you, or anyone, it is aimed at all of us, individually and collectively.

Now we come to the heart of the matter. Since you don't see the good works in each members life, you are pessimistic that they are happening in the first place.

Would you like a board on the forum dedicated to each member's personal achievement and good works? Or a donation amount next to each member's profile for everyone to know who gave what and for how much? Do you not see where and how pride & vanity would set in amongst us? Perhaps this is why the Lord said the following:

Matt 6:2-4  Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.

It was not my intent to go into the whole Free WILL thing at all. I find it is not productive to do while I judge myself.  I am ONLY looking at my heart, as I judge myself. Speaking for myself, I am not looking for whys, I am looking for HELP from HIM, wherever I fall short.  Bottom Line, do I love righteousness and actually hate wickedness? Do I love Him more than the world? Am I dying to my flesh?

But yet you always do, which is ironic, because time and again you prove you DO NOT understand it. You speak as if people have free will but say you do not intend to talk about the subject.

You can look through your old posts for yourself: Never once, in all the many times you expressed a great desire to serve the Lord, have you EVER implied the desire, in and of itself, was from the Lord. Time and again you speak as if YOU initiated a relationship with God in order to for Him to bless you in good works.

I truly feel it is INDISPUTABLE if one is going to be part of the First Resurrection then your heart and actions will be in line with such a noble calling, and you WILL have a heart that desires OVERCOMING more than anything else in the world.

But on who's timetable? Yours? God tells us He will give us a new heart and mind [Jer 31:33, Heb 8:10]...but it takes one's lifetime for these things to be accomplished. It's foolish to assume that it will happen any sooner.

I suppose my following illustration might be misunderstood but I will try anyway, this being Veterans day, well, almost. I think being part of the First resurrection is much like receiving the highest medal the US government gives its soldiers, the Congressional Medal of Honor.   Did the recipients of this medal do something to earn it? well, of course! very brave, very difficult, things that put their lives at great risk, essentially they died to themselves to help their comrades. Most recipients bear the marks in their body, and yet have the humility and bravery that escapes most of us all.

Did not Ray, also say, that getting saved is the HARDEST thing each of us will ever do? I believe He will stand behind that statement.

But that's not ALL he said or taught. And even Christ Himself said it was IMPOSSIBLE for one to be saved (in and of themselves). Only with God is it even possible. Always, God takes that first step.

Sorry if you found my post offensive. It was NOT aimed at anyone in particular and was not aimed at free will, which you have assumed. I think it is wonderful that many people have Great Knowledge, and this knowledge includes the understanding that God will save everyone. But that knowledge is NOT going to make you automatically in the First resurrection. Your works, your love for Jesus and your fellow man, your sacrifice, YES ALL THIS IS IN HIS STRENGTH< is what will be required to be there.

I don't know what else to say. I do not care how much head knowledge I have.  I want HEART KNOWLEDGE, the heart knowledge that causes me to abandon ALL my besetting sins, that causes me to live in obedience and to do works that Jesus will be proud to say..Well Done my Good and Faithful Servant.

Peace

Who on this forum ever said that having great knowledge assured them a place in the First Resurrection? What do you base these false assumptions on?

What's the point of going on and on about how you want to be in the First Resurrection when it's not your choice? You do believe it is NOT your choice, don't you?

Let us simply wait on the Lord when it comes to being in the First Resurrection. You can't change one aspect of your chances on your own, can't add one cubit to your stature [Matt 6:27]. But even to wait, the patience needed, will only come from God.


Marques

[longhorn]

I had most of my head put back together, then it exploded again.

Longhorn

[DougE6]

Quote...I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but not everyone who is not of the Elect will be 'weeping and gnashing' their teeth... "burst my bubble"? Unquote.. Was that really necessary to say? Do I delight in punishments and retribution? Was that remark intended or inadvertent? I will believe inadvertent.

Quote//Never once, in all the many times you expressed a great desire to serve the Lord, have you EVER implied the desire, in and of itself, was from the Lord. Time and again you speak as if YOU initiated a relationship with God in order to for Him to bless you in good works...Unquote

So because I speak words of zeal and joy and encouragement to seek righteousness this is NOW LABELED SELF INITIATED? WHAT GIVES YOU to allege that? What is it about my words to encourage others to righteousness you find so offensive?  Seriously? Is it truly necessary to preface exhortations with some sort of disclaimer?  (the following is meant to be said for effect and not to represent anyone here)...Or am I to be accommodating and say, oh its all right just for now to look at porn or commit adultery or have a bad temper or lie and cheat and steal, go to strip clubs, have emotional affairs, be lazy, unconcerned about others, selfish, not sharing with others, unloving, gossipers, backbiting, homosexual, drunkards, crude, lascivious, whatever, its all right, God hasn't taught you to hate it enough, so don't worry about it too much.  You can't expect to stop, so why try too hard. When God is full and ready He will stop you. Until then, just (secretly) do it, then repent, knowing you are just a helpless victim and don't bother seeking Him with all your heart mind soul and strength to change.  Wait for some heavenly signal or something.

How else are we to learn to hate these things if we ignore the admonitions of scripture, of fellow believers and His Spirit.  We are to telling they are EVIL. Encouraging each other.  Conviction of sin and unrighteousness is one of the most unpopular things that God calls us to do, but we are to do it.  His spirit is here to convict the world of sin righteousness and judgment.

God is the ONE who motivates  and convicts and calls to account.  The JOY of OBEDIENCE IS GREAT ENOUGH TO COMPELL TO FURTHER OBEDIENCE AS HIS SPIRIT CHANGES US. Rivers of flowing water of joy and peace and a clean conscience is the reward for obedience. Knowing that we are utterly weak and powerless comes with the territory.  BUT I AM TALKING ATTITUDE HERE AND NOT NECESSARILY PERFORMANCE.   Performance follows a contrite heart and spirit.

Why were my words condescending, like you said. Why?  I would think that anyone who delighted in righteousness would of rejoiced in them. I can assure you that I would not find it condescending at all if anyone, anyone said they loved God and encouraged any members or readers to be seekers of greater and greater righteousness or found they have been freed from deep sins or problems.  In fact, I think one of the hallmarks of believers is that they ARE different than they were before. That is why I stress this so much.  Maybe you find the connection between being called to being one of the Elect and judging ourselves and striving to be righteous offensive, I don't. I find it miraculous that I delight in good, I delight in Jesus, that I HATE my personal sins and weaknesses, and I rejoice as God increases my hatred for sins and increases my joy that the sinful desires pale in comparison. Then I know I might, be on track, for the first resurrection. Of course I do not know for sure. No one does. So because I do not know for sure, I am to give it very little mind?  it is not to be the foremost desire of my heart, to be with Christ, to be with Him, to be called to His side, to rule and reign to establish righteousness?

quote...Let us simply wait on the Lord when it comes to being in the First Resurrection... unquote ... Is God going to give the prize to people who don't want it with all their heart? I would not say what you have written, I see it much differently.

Is that why you found my post so offensive? You don't have this desire, with all your heart? I am asking in all seriousness. I thought everyone would.

Doug

[Craig]

Is God going to give the prize to people who don't want it with all their heart?

I will chime in with my opinion.  Yes He will.  In my observations and grasp of history the the ones who want it with all "Their" heart may be the last who get it.  These are the ones who began some of the worst persecution to their fellow man in history.  Some of ones who participated in the crusades and  Inquisitions wanted  God's prize with all their hearts.  Some of ones who start and lead churches want that prize also but in their zeal to get it they dilute the Word of God and become leaders of the synagogues of Satan.  The thing is when we want something so bad it becomes about us and not about God.  We try to fill ourselves with God instead of emptying ourselves for God.  

I don't know who the elect is, only God does.  But it seems in history a great number of the ones who appear to empty themselves and do good for their fellow man and live as an example of Christ do not even claim to be christian.  Christ lives in them and they do not even realize it.

Doug I don't know your heart but I agree that when I read some of your posts I see a condescending attitude.  Perhaps that is not what you are in "real life" but it seems like you want to bind yourself and others in works to assure your election.  I can't will the sin out of my life or work the sin out of my life.  God needs to burn it out of me and however He does it, I do want that, and I know that it will be in His time and not mine.

Craig

[Craig]

To add to my post.  I would say the vast majority on the forum have already tried working their way to election and have failed miserably.  Most have been down the road of going church multiple times a week.  Have tithed religiously, served as teachers, deacons, elders, music, volunteers, etc. etc.  Depending on the denomination they have kept religious days and holidays.  Refrained from whatever vice the leader of the church declares forbidden and a whole host of rules and regulations.  They worked and strived very hard and then one day by the grace of God they realized that no matter how hard they worked they are nothing but dung.  God showed them that works will not mend their wicked and sinful hearts. 

What are we doing now?  I hope we are living our lives, emptying ourselves and God is replacing us with him little by little.  In His time not ours.

Craig

[Ireland]

Doug, I for one am not put off by your testimony or your efforts to live for our Lord Jesus. My frustration stems from your constant exhortation as if you were the Apostle Paul himself. To correct or admonish someone from time to time out of love is one thing, but to post almost everytime about your zeal and works is down right self righteous to me. You seem very sincere and your desire is comendable, however your constant reminders are discouraging. I would be ashamed to talk about myself so much to people I have never even met face to face, much less people that are trying to overcome this difficult life. If some here are not living up to your standards then pm them privately in hopes to help them without sounding so arrogant. I too get frustrated at times being around less mature Christians (or should I say- unlearned in these truths) but my heart is reminded constantly that I too was there not so long ago. My attitude is to help them and humble myself. Sorry if I am too abrasive with this reply, but just hope that you will keep your never ending reminders of how spiritual you are to yourself. Point to our Lord more and less of yourself. Thank you

[Stacey]

Musicman, so you believe in evolution huh? That's great, glad that's working for ya. I don't. Never have and I don't reckon I will unless God decides I will. I looked up the guy who wrote the book you mentioned. He has some interesting stuff but I don't care to listen to it. Short, very short attention span.

Doug

Is God going to give the prize to people who don't want it with all their heart?

Craig

I will chime in with my opinion.  Yes He will. 

huh? How do you believe that Craig? I don't believe that God will hand out the prize to anyone who does not want it. Eventually sure but not before a great work is done in all of us to cause us to want it with all our hearts. < Am I wrong about that?

[lauriellen]

reading thru this conversation brought this passage of scripture to mind:

Joh 10:1  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh 10:2  But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh 10:3  To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4  And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
Joh 10:5  And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Craig, i heard the voice of the shepherd in your posts, loud and clear. thanks so much.

[River]

Here is some serious evolution going on here: 

Actually I thought of this scripture when reading Craigs response. Which I thought was excellent by the way.

Luke 15: 19-23
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.' 20 So he got up and went to his father.

   "But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

   21 "The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'

   22 "But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.