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is it important to change mind about freewill ?

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odading:
Dear members,

Please first let me introduce you a bit of me.
I haven't baptized yet (there for I'm not truly Christian), I don't have any base from other religion, and I don't read Bible except when I need to read while having a discussion and finally I'm not from English speaking country and Christian majority country.

I've read "The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part A", but not all - as the English is too hard for me which then made my headache ... :)

In short, I do believe about freewill.
bible-truths.com against it.

Below is a bit "story" about my understanding of freewill :

God made LAW - cause&effect.
By this law - He gave human a freewill.
Freewill is known only when human commit action.
So freewill is always under His LAW-cause&effect.

Of every people daily activities, it's not God personally Will - infiltrating human to act this or that - but "god" in people who decided what to do and it will be always subjected to His LAW-cause&effect.

IMHO, God not personally WILL which made me to decide to wear a blue shirt (rather than the white one), and get wet when out of house because it rains suddenly and I don't bring the umbrella, so I change the wet one to a white shirt.

One thing I do believe that it is God's Will.... : my life.
So in everything which happened to me, good or bad, happy or sad - I'm always trying to remember His Love, and be grateful for His Will that I'm still alive till the day and do daily activities. (everything I did, I possessed etc - is nothing by the time He take my life).

Another thing is when He personally Will to someone.
If I may say, something like miracle - Saulus for example,
or even me - when one day I'm baptized and become Christian... :)

There are some goodness I see in freewill.
people become responsible
people can not reason : "oh ... I'm a prostitute because God's Will"
people learn
people want to change to good
poeple can not judge other : "it's wasting time to preach this bad people - God's will they are bad"

So that's a little "story" of my understanding about freewill.

My question,
do I have to force this my understanding : "God gave me freewill and BE responsible !" to change to "I don;t have freewill, God gave me illusion power" - if so at least member of this Forum won't think that I'm wrong ?

and how do I even force it when the force itself is none in me because God's will ?
It is God's Will that I am wrong.

Any kind of respond will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you in advanced.

regards.

octoberose:
Welcome to the forum. We're glad to have you.
 I know others will write more eloquently than I to answer your questions and comments but I just wanted to let you know this is a great place to ask those questions. Your English is very good and I applaud your diligence in learning both another language, and being a seeker into the Truths of God.
 It's hard for us to not believe in free will when we feel that we are in control, that we are making the decisions. Most people do believe that, but most people are taking God's place in their lives. When you continue to read Ray's article you'll see that we make Choices and that is different than free will. Choices though, are caused by something, something that we have no control over, and that is part of the myth of free will. Even then, the Bible tells us that we are "called to account" for our actions, so what we do is very important. God doesn't "make us sin". We are sinning machines, we volunteer for it and He did make us with a sinful nature from the very beginning.
 God draws us to Himself, and the word draw actually means drags us. If He's drawing me, where's the free will?
 I have two golden retrievers. They make choices all day long (Am I going to wait here on the deck, or am I going to chase that rabbit?) But their choices do not interfere with my will for them. I decide what they eat, when they eat, when they go to the doctors, I bring them to classes on doggy behavior. I give love, I give treats, I withhold treats, etc. Now, this example can only go so far because I am not Sovereign God, I am only human. But my dogs act the way we humans do- they respond to what they know within the life I have set up for them and the nature that God has given them. We're kind of like that.
 Ray also speaks on baptism. I struggle with that myself, but I know that no physical ritual makes us spiritual. When the Bible uses the word 'baptizo' it is speaking of immersion. The definition does not mean immersed in water, just immersed. They were immersed in the Holy Spirit and that is a work of God, not human hands. Yes, I am baptized, but that didn't "save me". That saving takes places over my life and into the next.
 Keep reading, keep asking. You'll see we like to wrestle with things on this forum. You are just like us, a creation of God and seeker so don't think you can't ask or that we judge you. Having you here is a gift.
 Have a lovely day,

Extol:
Hi Odading,
Free will is the freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention. By that definition, one does not even need to believe in God to see that there’s no such thing as free will!

Maybe there was no specific cause that day—the temperature, for example--that made you choose the blue shirt instead of the white one. But there are many causes for you having the shirts in the first place. Think of all the people that had a part in getting the shirt to you: farmer, cotton picker, salesman, truck driver, clerk, manager, cashier... You can start with the farmer. He wanted to grow cotton because he wanted to feed his family. He chose to grow cotton because he lives in a good climate for that. Then the people who bought his cotton bought it because they wanted to make shirts (because they wanted to feed their families). Go on and on down the line, and you’ll see there are many causes which brought you the shirt.

You can say more about this, too. Why do we wear shirts at all? Because we want to keep warm, and because we want to cover our nakedness. But why shirts? Why don’t we wear fish tanks? Because our bodies aren’t shaped to wear fish tanks. Why are our bodies shaped the way they are? Because that’s how GOD made them. You see all the causes?

To answer your question, YES, it is important that you understand God is sovereign. The most evil doctrine in the world—the belief in eternal torment—is justified by people who believe in free will, because they say it is not God doing the torturing. “People chose of their own free will to go there.” This is ridiculous nonsense, of course. Nobody would really choose to be burned in fire for a minute, not to mention forever! There are other reasons why free will can be dangerous. It can make you proud, and make you rely on your own limited abilities, and a number of other things.

Read the Bible—it doesn’t have to be English—and read Ray’s articles as much as you can, even if you do it slowly. In The Myth of Free Will you will find dozens of Scripture references that talk about this subject. Write down all of those verses and then look them up in your own language. You’ll see that God is truly sovereign. In due time, God will open your eyes to this Truth.

Kind regards.  ;)

gmik:
Welcome to the forum!!

I don't believe in free will but I get confused sometimes by the BIG questions (who do I marry) vs. little daily questions (white or blue shirt?)

Looking backwards at my life I see God's hand directing "life events" in my choices.  But we make a million tiny decisions each day that don't seem important at all.

It is easier for me to just pile all my decisions onto God's "shoulders" and let Him be responsible for me ;)

I also have trouble explaining any of this to my free willer friends.  They just don't want to "give up" any control and that is Pride!  They don't want to be robots...even tho scripture plainly states HE is the potter and we are the clay.

Anyway, you can get instant translation on the computer.  do you have access to that?  God Bless you on your journey to truth....and you are so right....It is God's will if you are wrong! :D

Hope you can understand this...if not...NO WORRIES!!

DougE6:
Hi Odading

I am sure others can do a much better job of explaining than I can, I will tell you my understanding, if I can get it into some words.

It is true that free will does not exist. Does this mean we can't preach to bad people? Or one can reason "I am a prostitute because it is Gods' will? I would answer No to the first and a very careful and qualified yes to the second, qualified Because she is still fully accountable!.

First of all, NONE of us know the future. NONE. We do not know which or how or if any of our plans will succeed, or which way God is going to take us. So we by "default" HAVE to do our best, if we want to achieve any purpose, support our famlies, learn something new, run a business, achieve, do a ministry, resist evil, etc... even though God has already determined what will happen. The Olympic athlete must always train and train, and practice and practice, even though God has determined already he would win the gold. Without this training the Gold Medalist would not win. SO our participation is required because WE DO NOT KNOW THE FUTURE. We can NEVER have an attitude or NOT trying, or "laissez faire" just because God causes it all.  Even though God may be the cause, we still have to put in the effort. Great tiring and profound struggle is what forges the character in us that God wants to achieve. So you are right,  that cause and effect is very important, a great teacher to us all, and it exists, but it is suboordinate to the even greater truth that God causes all.

As far as the prostitute? yes there is truth that the prostitute is fulfilling what God had foreordained to happen and what she should be, at least for a short while(we will not be sinners forever). But it does not mean that she can use that as an excuse, TO CONTINUE! NO, she can't. She/we are ALL ignorant of God and His ways and laws and Jesus for a while, but not forever! The prostitute has made hundreds of decisions, or her own will, (even though these willful decisions are caused by forces she may not even understand or be aware of) hundreds and hundreds of willful decisions to be and participate in what she is. In time God will take her out of this sinful lifestyle, he will change her HEART inside in the proper manner that she will learn to HATE and DESPISE the sins she is captured and enslaved too. She will repent of her individual voluntary participation in this lifestyle. Remember we are all volunteers,  WE DO CHOOSE to DO our sins, God doesn't FORCE us to sin.  So all, each of our lives WILL include a time in deep sin of some sorts, it is necessary for our spiritual development to go through it.  BUT THIS BRINGS UP AN OBLIGATION! THEOBLIGATION TO REPENT OF OUR WRONGDOING!

 We, if we know Jesus, we are TO HELP IN THIS REPENTANCE. to reach out and RESCUE by preaching and by acts of charity and help to be ambassadors of Christ to the prostitute. To have the Jesus IN US do THE WORKS THAT hE WOULD DO! Of course the harvest is always dictated by God.  We are merely laborers. But because we don't know the harvest, WHO IS GOING TO COME, we are to plant and till and do all we can to help others.  Just like the gold medalist trains. Just my understanding in a nut shell.

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