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Free Will? Then How Are We Sinless In Heaven?

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Samson:

--- Quote from: Arion on November 18, 2011, 06:34:26 PM ---When I run across a particularly stubborn free willer I usually hit them with this paradox.

I ask them that as a Christian do they want to sin.

They will of course answer that they do not want to sin.

I then ask them if they still sin at times even though they don't want to and if they are honest they will admit that they still sin occasionally.

I then say to them why do they still sin if they don't want to.....what happened to their 'free will'.  It's usually silent with the crickets chirping.

--- End quote ---


Good Example or Illustration Arion,

A simple, straight forward and logical example of How none of us, including " The Christian " do not possess "Free Will " or " Free Moral " Agency in regards to the stopping ourselves from sinning, good luck in stopping that,  ;D. My favorite example from Ray was the one where He mentions that none of Us can prevent the day of Our death, " Free Will yourself out of that one."  ;)

           Kind Regards, Samson.

                     

Foxx:
Great responses guys! The thing I always strive to do is to be able to articulate my thoughts about these issues. Not for the sake of debate but to connect the dots in my head. But really after all is said and done it actually monumentally simple, as Ray often puts, so simple a child can understand it. The trouble is combating the centuries of unsound doctrine.

The thing that continually comes up in discussion, with myself at least, is people often times will conceed that the definition of free will is wrong, but they still fight for the "Well, God may put things in your path but its still your choice to do what he wants, you always still have that choice to say no to God" to which I reply "And did God not know you were going to say no to him?" and if they say "yes, he knew you would." then I generally would go on to say "Knowing that, wouldn't that be part of his plan?"  Of course they say "no" or  "then what was the point in doing it if he knew I was just going to reject him?"

And thats what they can't accept, he does things knowing you will make a choice based on who you are , how you were raised, and weather or not he softens or hardens your heart! I can do NO good in and of myself because I'm fully incapable of it on my own. It is only HE who allows me to and they don't get that, they will still say "but you make the choice", what they don't get is that IT DOESN'T MATTER! We just act in reaction to things, thats all we do all our lives. Proceeding along with natural laws he put into place! And if it weren't for him being in control then all the prophesies in all the Bible would never have happened because we would just be going along according to the natural law with out him influencing anything and according to them our free will has determined, like a lottery, how the savior of the world was going to come into being! Right? No...ridiculous nonsense. If it weren't for God none of the prophesies would have happened.

Really when you think about it, in someways Christianity is very deist in their beliefs. God doesn't really do anything...oh well unless you ask... *rolls eyes*  Anyway sorry for the rambling.   :P

Joel:
Psalms 100:3
Know ye that the Lord he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

How much free will do sheep have?

Joel

River:
If you really don't believe in free will then you will be forced to take a new look at everything. Blame, punishment, frustration, labeling, rewarding, love etc. it changes how you previously understood it. If anyone one thing has really spun me around it is this understanding. The whole world is under this illusion of free will, spend some time listening to how everyone talks and you will hear it always being preached. So be it.

arion:

--- Quote from: River on November 19, 2011, 10:07:16 PM --- The whole world is under this illusion of free will, spend some time listening to how everyone talks and you will hear it always being preached. So be it.

--- End quote ---

And this is a marvelous revelation once our eyes are open to see it.  About the only thing that all the religions of the world have in common along with those without religion at all is that they all believe that they have free will.  If there is one constant among people regardless of race, creed, upbringing, ect is the belief that they have free will.  Christians constantly parrot that wherever you go.  And of course everyone believes that 'free will' is the ability to make our own choices which isn't what free will is at all.  I credit Ray with bringing the teaching to light but nobody can see it unless the Lord opens their eyes.  And isn't it interesting how people will fight tooth and nail that they have a free will and that it is one of the most important things around.  With free will they can then justify God in torturing billions of people in the christian hell for all eternity and thereby get God off the hook over it.  Once God enables us to drop that fallacy everything else begins to drop in place and makes sense.

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