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[Foxx]

I was thinking (as I dangerously do at times) more about the ridiculous nature of free will and thought I would share something to see if anyone else has had this occur to them.

So, according to those who believe our choices are free will, that we make choices that are not influenced by anything, we are the ones who decide not to sin. That once we are "saved" we are capable of not sinning and, therefore, enter into "heaven" when we die.  

So what I was thinking about was this: Even if we choose and strive not to sin I highly doubt any Christian would claim that they NEVER sin but that Jesus forgives us of those sins because we believe in him and repent. Most will admit they still sin, at least occasionally, because we are not "perfect".  This being the case, the question I pose to them is this: Are we allowed in heaven being sinful in any amount?  The answer, even by they would be NO. So how exactly do we get into heaven as NON-sinning beings? Do we choose suddenly, now that we are dead, to just not be sinning creatures? If that were possible why not just do that while we were here on earth? The response I would have given, if presented with this question back when I believed in free will, would be that God is the one who takes away our sinful nature once we are in heaven!

Which brings me to my point finally!

How is it possible that while we are on earth it is up to our ability to choose good all on our own, even though we apparently suck at it, but in heaven it's up to God to remove the sin completely? It makes no sense! It's a contradiction!

So God will not only take away this "great gift of free will" when we get to heaven, he waits until we are dead to remove the sin he could have removed all along? They believe that he won't affect our free will here but when it comes to us needing to be "perfectly sinless" in heaven then he will take it away? Anyway, Just thought I would share, pardon the poor writing style.  

[mharrell08]

The doctrines of the church are filled with these same contradictions. No matter how simple and logical it seems to us, it is totally foreign to them.

[Akira329]

This was one of the first questions I asked my dad when I was teaching sunday school. At that time he didn't have an answer.

[arion]

When I run across a particularly stubborn free willer I usually hit them with this paradox.

I ask them that as a Christian do they want to sin.

They will of course answer that they do not want to sin.

I then ask them if they still sin at times even though they don't want to and if they are honest they will admit that they still sin occasionally.

I then say to them why do they still sin if they don't want to.....what happened to their 'free will'.  It's usually silent with the crickets chirping.

[odading]

Hi... newcomer here...

I'll try to answer your question,
an honest and neutral one  based from NON Christian but believe in freewill  :

They will of course answer that they do not want to sin.

NOP, it's a LIE if Christianfreewiller say they don't want to - THEY WANT TO.

I then say to them why do they still sin if they don't want to....

They hypocritly BLAME the devil

regards.

[Samson]

When I run across a particularly stubborn free willer I usually hit them with this paradox.

I ask them that as a Christian do they want to sin.

They will of course answer that they do not want to sin.

I then ask them if they still sin at times even though they don't want to and if they are honest they will admit that they still sin occasionally.

I then say to them why do they still sin if they don't want to.....what happened to their 'free will'.  It's usually silent with the crickets chirping.

Good Example or Illustration Arion,

A simple, straight forward and logical example of How none of us, including " The Christian " do not possess "Free Will " or " Free Moral " Agency in regards to the stopping ourselves from sinning, good luck in stopping that,  . My favorite example from Ray was the one where He mentions that none of Us can prevent the day of Our death, " Free Will yourself out of that one." 

           Kind Regards, Samson.

                     

[Foxx]

Great responses guys! The thing I always strive to do is to be able to articulate my thoughts about these issues. Not for the sake of debate but to connect the dots in my head. But really after all is said and done it actually monumentally simple, as Ray often puts, so simple a child can understand it. The trouble is combating the centuries of unsound doctrine.

The thing that continually comes up in discussion, with myself at least, is people often times will conceed that the definition of free will is wrong, but they still fight for the "Well, God may put things in your path but its still your choice to do what he wants, you always still have that choice to say no to God" to which I reply "And did God not know you were going to say no to him?" and if they say "yes, he knew you would." then I generally would go on to say "Knowing that, wouldn't that be part of his plan?"  Of course they say "no" or  "then what was the point in doing it if he knew I was just going to reject him?"

And thats what they can't accept, he does things knowing you will make a choice based on who you are , how you were raised, and weather or not he softens or hardens your heart! I can do NO good in and of myself because I'm fully incapable of it on my own. It is only HE who allows me to and they don't get that, they will still say "but you make the choice", what they don't get is that IT DOESN'T MATTER! We just act in reaction to things, thats all we do all our lives. Proceeding along with natural laws he put into place! And if it weren't for him being in control then all the prophesies in all the Bible would never have happened because we would just be going along according to the natural law with out him influencing anything and according to them our free will has determined, like a lottery, how the savior of the world was going to come into being! Right? No...ridiculous nonsense. If it weren't for God none of the prophesies would have happened.

Really when you think about it, in someways Christianity is very deist in their beliefs. God doesn't really do anything...oh well unless you ask... *rolls eyes*  Anyway sorry for the rambling.  

[Joel]

Psalms 100:3
Know ye that the Lord he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

How much free will do sheep have?

Joel

[River]

If you really don't believe in free will then you will be forced to take a new look at everything. Blame, punishment, frustration, labeling, rewarding, love etc. it changes how you previously understood it. If anyone one thing has really spun me around it is this understanding. The whole world is under this illusion of free will, spend some time listening to how everyone talks and you will hear it always being preached. So be it.

[arion]

The whole world is under this illusion of free will, spend some time listening to how everyone talks and you will hear it always being preached. So be it.

And this is a marvelous revelation once our eyes are open to see it.  About the only thing that all the religions of the world have in common along with those without religion at all is that they all believe that they have free will.  If there is one constant among people regardless of race, creed, upbringing, ect is the belief that they have free will.  Christians constantly parrot that wherever you go.  And of course everyone believes that 'free will' is the ability to make our own choices which isn't what free will is at all.  I credit Ray with bringing the teaching to light but nobody can see it unless the Lord opens their eyes.  And isn't it interesting how people will fight tooth and nail that they have a free will and that it is one of the most important things around.  With free will they can then justify God in torturing billions of people in the christian hell for all eternity and thereby get God off the hook over it.  Once God enables us to drop that fallacy everything else begins to drop in place and makes sense.

[Rene]

With free will they can then justify God in torturing billions of people in the christian hell for all eternity and thereby get God off the hook over it.  Once God enables us to drop that fallacy everything else begins to drop in place and makes sense.

Great point, whereby the truth is just the opposite from what they think.  God's sovereignty is what justifies why all will be saved!

René

[kencando]

After Satan has been defeated and put away for eternity, and death and the grave are thrown into the lake of fire, there will be nothing to tempt your spirit into sinning. So you could not sin where ever you spend eternity because you will have no concept of good and evil, much like Adam and Eve when they were first created.

[Craig]

I'm sorry but that just ain't right.  We are being created in God's image to know good and evil.  What is the point of our existance if not to learn rightousness?  And once we have learned it why would God just throw it all away and make us like Adam and Eve again?  If that is the case why does God make us go through this miserable existance in the first place? 

We will be made into children of God and we will know good and evil and on top of that we will have been made rightous.  Sin will not be a part of our nature, just lilke it is not in God's nature.

Craig

[gmik]

If that is the case why does God make us go through this miserable existance in the first place? -craig

to me that is the one million dollar question!!!  I don't get why it takes all "this"-I really don't (especially if I were the poor downtrodden slave in a 3rd world nation) 

God wants a family-then He could make a family.  God wants us to learn evil?  Why?  Just make us the way He wants us.

(don't mind me I am still ticked from the gals at lunch)   (my thread-Free Will again)

Now all these posts are great and I agree but I can never remember to say any of this when I am out and about!!

Arion I like your paradox and I like Ray saying -Free Will yourself out of death! (lol, I can just hear him say that!)

Happy Thanksgiving everyone in case I don't make it back on!

[DougE6]

God wants a family-then He could make a family.  God wants us to learn evil?  Why?  Just make us the way He wants us.

Because God is wise enough to know that no intelligent powerful being (Sons of God) will REALLY appreciate and Really understand and know the blessing of what He is or has been given unless he has to sweat blood sweat and tears to get it, that we need to aspire and Desire this tremendous gift that He will eventually give all mankind...and to have something to compare it to.  That is is why you MUST OVERCOME with all your heart EVEN as we know it is all of God...Until you HATE the weaknesses resident in you, until you DIE to the flesh and the carnal mind...God still has work to do with you! If you are part of the first resurection everyone else will greatly see the incredible chasm between the Sons of God and the unconverted...

Rom 8:19  For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.

They will desperately want the release from the bondage to corruption when they see the revelation of the Sons of God.

Rom 8:21  that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

God will make the rest of creation to greatly desire what we will be! 

Eph 2:4  But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5  even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--
Eph 2:6  and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7  so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.