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Author Topic: Doesn't eyeryone die?  (Read 3924 times)

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Felix

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Doesn't eyeryone die?
« on: November 20, 2011, 01:28:32 PM »

Hi everyone. I have a question.

I've been reading the section on "The Secret Rapture". This has been the most difficult part of
Ray's teaching for me to understand.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Not all shall be put to repose (death).
Isn't it appointed for man once to die and then the ressurection? We are not immortal. Doesn"t
everyone die?

Felix
 
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gmik

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Re: Doesn't eyeryone die?
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2011, 01:40:40 PM »

Hi Felix.....no answers here...just waiting w/ you for some good posts!
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mharrell08

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Re: Doesn't eyeryone die?
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2011, 01:53:57 PM »

Hi everyone. I have a question.

I've been reading the section on "The Secret Rapture". This has been the most difficult part of
Ray's teaching for me to understand.

1 Corinthians 15:51 Not all shall be put to repose (death).
Isn't it appointed for man once to die and then the ressurection? We are not immortal. Doesn"t
everyone die?

Felix


Everyone dies the 2nd Death, which is the Lake of Fire. Not everyone will die physically, as people will be on the earth when Christ returns. Here is some additional notes from Ray regarding this 2nd death:

Excerpt from Lake of Fire Part 16-E (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm):

WHEN DO GOD'S ELECT DIE ONCE BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH?

But how do the Elect "die once but after this Judgment?" It rather seems that they would receive Judgment [in this life], and then after this [judgment] they would once die. No, the sequence is the same for the Elect as it is for the wicked: "And it is appointed unto men [including the Elect] once to die, but after this [after this necessary 'once to die' declaration, then follows...], Judgment" (Heb. 9:27). And what did we learn Judgment is? Why, THE SECOND DEATH. There can only be a "second" death if it is first preceded by another death.

Now for the second part of the Heb. 9:27 riddle: When and how do God's Elect die "ONCE" before their SECOND death Judgment? Some of you should already be ahead of me with all the hints I have given you, but for the rest who haven't figured it out yet, you will maybe feel a little embarrassed when you see the answer, so here it is:

"Know ye not [no, of course the majority of Christendom 'knows not,' and that is why the physical aspects of baptism is so important to them...] ...know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into DEATH" (Rom. 6:3-4).

There is the answer to how God's Elect must "once die" before their "Second death Judgment."

The carnal world dies when they breathe their last and go down into the grave. God's Elect die when they are "baptized into death.". After resurrection from the dead, the world will enter into Judgment. And what about us--God's Elect? When do we enter into Judgment? Same way, when we are resurrected from the dead through baptism.

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom. 6:4).

But we are not literally resurrected to immortality as Jesus was, when we are raised from the dead after being baptized into JESUS, are we? No, not literally, that is why Paul says we are to, "reckon you also yourselves to be dead."

"Likewise r-e-c-k-o-n you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11).

The Greek word for "reckon" means "to estimate, conclude, impute, reason, reckon, suppose, think." It is not necessary to "reckon" something that is literally a present reality. In the future we will literally be free from all sin and literally have immortality in resurrection, but for now we can just "reckon" it.

This death is not a literal, physical death, but it is a REAL death, and it is most important:

"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Rom. 6:8 ).

Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.

How sad it is that billions of people are eager to be baptized in water, but do not know what it means to be "baptized into Jesus Christ." If people want to be baptized in water, fine, but if they are not at the same time "baptized into Jesus Christ," which means "baptized into death," then they only go down dry and come up wet--little else changes in their lives.

Remember that the Lake of fire IS death, but death only to those things which are to be no longer. Are there to be people after the Judgment? Yes. Well then people will not be literally killed or annihilated in this judgment by fire. How would God ever be "ALL in all" (I Cor. 15:28)?



Hope this helps,

Marques
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Felix

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Re: Doesn't eyeryone die?
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2011, 02:36:57 PM »

Thank you Marques.
I've got to study and contemplate on this for a while.
Felix
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Craig

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Re: Doesn't eyeryone die?
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2011, 03:51:08 PM »

Quote
Isn't it appointed for man once to die and then the ressurection?

I quick chime in.

Pay attention to the words
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Heb (:27

Craig
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Kat

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Re: Doesn't eyeryone die?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2011, 04:08:44 PM »


Hi Felix,

Quote
1 Corinthians 15:51 Not all shall be put to repose (death).
Isn't it appointed for man once to die and then the ressurection? We are not immortal. Doesn"t
everyone die?

This has intrigued me as well. What Paul is talking about is those Elect that will be alive on earth at Christ's return (they may have believe that would be most of them). The last generation Elect would have already been through their second death LOF experience during their lives and they have not physically died, but are still alive at the very time that Christ returns to resurrect the dead. Paul says of these;

1Co 15:51  lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed;
v. 52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we--we shall be changed: (YLT)

It goes on to say that those Elect that are still alive will put on incorruption and immortality, so their "change" will occur as soon as the dead Elect are raised up and then they will join them in the air to meet Christ.

1Th 4:16  because the Lord Himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
v. 17  then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;

Well how is the "change" to occur? Well the physical will be replaced in an instant with spirit, that seems like to me to be a kind of death of the physical/carnal/flesh. God did say that Nobody can see Him and live.

Exo 33:20  And He said, You cannot see My face. For there no man can see Me and live.

All on earth will "see" Chirst when He returns.

Rev 1:7  Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him...

But as Paul said we "shall not all sleep/repose." Sleep is the unconscious state of the dead, their spirit has gone back to God and there is no thought and they no longer have awareness and know nothing (Ecc 9:5). So those very last generation of Elect will not sleep in the grave, but will go straight up with the rest of the resurrected Elected to meet Christ.

Well at least that is the way I understand it.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 07:16:07 PM by Kat »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Doesn't eyeryone die?
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2011, 06:24:29 PM »


Joh 11:13  Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

Jesus referred to death as sleep.

Mat 8:22  But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.  

Arc
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River

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Re: Doesn't eyeryone die?
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2011, 10:24:07 PM »

mharrell08 you wrote "Not everyone will die physically, as people will be on the earth when Christ returns."

Could you provide me with scriptures on this. Thanks.
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Cypress

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Re: Doesn't eyeryone die?
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2012, 10:00:13 AM »

Sorry to bring this back up, but my hubby and I were discussing this last night in response to an email posted on the Friends of L Ray Smith Facebook page where Ray answers an email pertaining to Enoch. Ray said he died, bc the wages of sin is death...and it's appointed for all men to die once. Are these physical or spiritual deaths? I'll try to copy the email into this post.
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Elaine

mharrell08

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Re: Doesn't eyeryone die?
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2012, 10:09:41 AM »

Spiritual deaths...people will be alive when Christ returns.
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Cypress

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Re: Doesn't eyeryone die?
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2012, 10:10:15 AM »

Jesus said that no man ascended to heaven except for Him, right.  The question I got is what happened to Enoch in Genesis 5:24 and Elijah.  It didn't say they died. So where did they go.  Did they just become angels or something.  Your help with this question, and all of the help you've given in building the kingdom of God is deeply appreciated.  You've laid down the bricks of truth like a expert brick layer.  I'm sure your house will be shown to be made of gold, silver, and jewels to the glory of the Father and our Lord Jesus.
 
With the Love of the Father,
Israel

 
Dear Israel:

I get asked this question month in and month out, year after year.  You say that "It [the Bible] didn't say they died."

Ah, but it does:

Enoch and Elijah were sinners along with ALL humanity (Rom. 3:23), and the wages of sin is DEATH [death to Enoch & Elijah] (Rom. 6:23).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so DEATH passed upon ALL men [this includes Enoch and Elijah]" (Rom. 5:12).

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die [this includes Enoch & Elijah, but after this the judgment" (Heb. 9:27)

Contrary to Christian fantasy, Elijah did not ascend to the throne room of God Almighty, but rather ascended up into the SKY [heaven].  God simply transported him from one location to another.  

Years later, Elijah wrote a letter

"And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father..." (II Chron. 21:12) "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated [translated means to transport--as in from one location to another] him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God" Heb. 11:5).

Then in Heb. 11:13 we read this:

"These all died ['all' who? all those mentioned in this chapter of Hebrew, which included Enoch (Ver. 5)] in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."

But what about Elijah. His name does not appear in Hebrews as one who "died in faith," does it?  True, his name is not there, but HE IS THERE.  Elijah was a prophet, and the prophets are included in this chapter of "all these DIED"

"...and of the PROPHETS prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms..." (Heb. 11:32-33).

Hope this helps your understanding.

God be with you,

Ray
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Elaine

Cypress

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Re: Doesn't eyeryone die?
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2012, 10:15:13 AM »

Thanks Marques. That's how I've always viewed these verses. Only that it seemed like Ray was using them to prove Enoch died physically. Then we started thinking 'well is he saying then that everyone will die physically bc these verses say so?', which we know isn't the case.
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Elaine

Kat

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Re: Doesn't eyeryone die?
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2012, 07:09:46 PM »


I just would like to bring up something about this verse.

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,

Quote
Spiritual deaths...people will be alive when Christ returns.

Okay if this verse only refers to spiritual death, then it does not apply to the great majority of humanity. Because only the elect are going through this death to self and judgment now, nobody else is being judged yet, that will come at the Great White Throne Judgement. So what about the rest of humanity? I am thinking this verse does apply to everybody, and is what was also indicated by God in Genesis?

Gen 2:17  but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

This verse states if you partaken of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (every human that lives certainly does), so each have to face physical death according to these verses. Just wanted to mention that this verse in Genesis is a 2nd witness to that verse in Hebrews.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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mharrell08

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Re: Doesn't eyeryone die?
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2012, 01:25:49 AM »

Appointed once to die = dying to self. After this the Judgment = 2nd Death/Lake of Fire/Judgment by Fire/etc.

Excerpt from LOF Part 16-E (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm):

WHEN DO GOD'S ELECT DIE ONCE BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH?

But how do the Elect "die once but after this Judgment?" It rather seems that they would receive Judgment [in this life], and then after this [judgment] they would once die. No, the sequence is the same for the Elect as it is for the wicked: "And it is appointed unto men [including the Elect] once to die, but after this [after this necessary 'once to die' declaration, then follows...], Judgment" (Heb. 9:27). And what did we learn Judgment is? Why, THE SECOND DEATH. There can only be a "second" death if it is first preceded by another death.

Now for the second part of the Heb. 9:27 riddle: When and how do God's Elect die "ONCE" before their SECOND death Judgment? Some of you should already be ahead of me with all the hints I have given you, but for the rest who haven't figured it out yet, you will maybe feel a little embarrassed when you see the answer, so here it is:

"Know ye not [no, of course the majority of Christendom 'knows not,' and that is why the physical aspects of baptism is so important to them...] ...know you not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into DEATH" (Rom. 6:3-4).

There is the answer to how God's Elect must "once die" before their "Second death Judgment."


The carnal world dies when they breathe their last and go down into the grave. God's Elect die when they are "baptized into death.". After resurrection from the dead, the world will enter into Judgment. And what about us--God's Elect? When do we enter into Judgment? Same way, when we are resurrected from the dead through baptism.

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom. 6:4).

But we are not literally resurrected to immortality as Jesus was, when we are raised from the dead after being baptized into JESUS, are we? No, not literally, that is why Paul says we are to, "reckon you also yourselves to be dead."

"Likewise r-e-c-k-o-n you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11).

The Greek word for "reckon" means "to estimate, conclude, impute, reason, reckon, suppose, think." It is not necessary to "reckon" something that is literally a present reality. In the future we will literally be free from all sin and literally have immortality in resurrection, but for now we can just "reckon" it.

This death is not a literal, physical death, but it is a REAL death, and it is most important:

"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Rom. 6:8 ).

Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.

How sad it is that billions of people are eager to be baptized in water, but do not know what it means to be "baptized into Jesus Christ." If people want to be baptized in water, fine, but if they are not at the same time "baptized into Jesus Christ," which means "baptized into death," then they only go down dry and come up wet--little else changes in their lives.

Remember that the Lake of fire IS death, but death only to those things which are to be no longer. Are there to be people after the Judgment? Yes. Well then people will not be literally killed or annihilated in this judgment by fire. How would God ever be "ALL in all" (I Cor. 15:28)?



Marques
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