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Why God grieved, repented and changed ?
odading:
I know that God never changed.
But I've been thinking, why in the Bible verse have a sentence that God grieved and/or feel sorry (or even looks like He changed his mind) ? Has this anything to do with His "good character" loving, kind, graceful, merciful, etc ?
IMHO,
to show that God is loving, kind, graceful, merciful - the first thing is God need to make a Law for human during live on earth in their daily activities. (this Law is the one that I assume LAW-Cause&Effect).
When there is a law then there is a condition, if.... then .... where this if... then ... will always change depends on what human do on earth.
Sometimes in extraordinary case, God did intervene in this Law, but most of the time He let His Law to work by itself. (if God intervene in His Law every sec, then why bother making the law ? :))
From the above statement,
I now can "understand" why did God grieve/feel sorry in bible verse : The result of what human do based on the if...then... is the one that made Him sad,
or ...
did God make all things what human do on earth for the sake of His own self so He can grieve, repent, feel sorry, etc ?
regards,
odading.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: odading on November 26, 2011, 05:45:07 AM ---I know that God never changed.
But I've been thinking, why in the Bible verse have a sentence that God grieved and/or feel sorry (or even looks like He changed his mind) ? Has this anything to do with His "good character" loving, kind, graceful, merciful, etc ?
IMHO,
to show that God is loving, kind, graceful, merciful - the first thing is God need to make a Law for human during live on earth in their daily activities. (this Law is the one that I assume LAW-Cause&Effect).
When there is a law then there is a condition, if.... then .... where this if... then ... will always change depends on what human do on earth.
Sometimes in extraordinary case, God did intervene in this Law, but most of the time He let His Law to work by itself. (if God intervene in His Law every sec, then why bother making the law ? :))
From the above statement,
I now can "understand" why did God grieve/feel sorry in bible verse : The result of what human do based on the if...then... is the one that made Him sad,
or ...
did God make all things what human do on earth for the sake of His own self so He can grieve, repent, feel sorry, etc ?
regards,
odading.
--- End quote ---
Odading... Odading... You are so very difficult to understand.
God's law is His way of intervening every second Odading. It's His way of ALWAYS being in control. He didn't just start a car, put a brick on the throttle and step out and watch it go on its own. He's very much in control of everything, even the hairs on your head are numbered and not one will fall without His command.
God did not "REPENT" in the sense that He was fooled into not seeing something happening and so had to change His mind. There are things written in the bible that are written from the context of human perspective. It appeared to man, that God had repented. To man, from man's perspective. From God's perspective, this change was one He had planned to make and so He was not taken by surprise.
My Advice odading, please read rays articles. I'm fairly certain he talks about this specific verse you are asking about.
In ray's own words;
--- Quote ---Relative VS absolute in the scriptures
Their is no such thing as contradictions in the bible, and many who create the contradictions list have little understanding of what is relative, and what is absolute. They are not men filled with God's spirit, let alone converted men. A man of God understands His Word does not contradict. (sorry these are my words here, this is taken from a blog I wrote, ignore the first sentance here. ray begins with the bolded part)
RELATIVE VS. ABSOLUTE: By L.RAY.SMITH
If a theologian can't see the "absolute" versus the "relative" in Scripture, he is in no position to teach anyone.
A little boys asks: "Why did God say in Gen. 3:9: 'Where art thou [Adam]?' Mommy says that God knows everything." (I Jn 3:20). You say, "Of course God knew where Adam was. Adam sinned. Adam felt bad. He thought he could hide from God. God was condescending to man's level. It was for Adam's benefit that God asked, 'Where art thou Adam?'" You say, "That's not a problem. That's easy to understand and answer. It's stupid to think that God didn't know where Adam was."
And, of course, we have Scriptural proof that God knew where Adam was because "He [God] knows all" (I Jn 3:20)
Neither did our Lord ask questions out of ignorance:
"Believe ye that I am able to do this?" (Matt. 9:28)
"Who is my mother, and who are my brethren?" (Matt. 12:48)
"How many loaves have ye?" (Matt. 15:34)
"Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?" (Matt. 116:13)
Christ asked dozens of questions during His ministry. But He already knew all the answers:
" ... because of His knowing ALL men ... " (Matt. 21:27).
Christ even answered questions by asking questions. The Pharisees asked why His disciples transgressed the "traditions." Our Lord knew how to "answer a fool according to his folly" (Prov. 26:5) by asking: "Wherefore are you also transgressing the precept of God because of your tradition?" (Mat. 15:3)
This brings up another apparent contradiction, however, because Prov. 26:4 says: "answer not a fool according to his folly ... " Our Lord knew how to do that as well: "Neither am I telling you by what authority I am doing these things." (Mat. 21:27). These two scriptures in Proverbs should teach us to never pit one verse of Scripture against another. Verse 4 and 5 do not contradict. They are both true.
So if it's stupid to think that God didn't really know where Adam was, a relative statement condescending to man's level, isn't it then, likewise, stupid to believe that God contradicts Himself in the following verses:
THE RELATIVE VS THE ABSOLUTE:
" ... seek, and ye shall find ... " (Mat. 7:7) "Not one is seeking out God" (Rom. 3:11)
"God changed His mind" (Ex. 32:14) "God is not a man Who changes His mind" (I Sam. 15:29)
" ... choose you this day whom ye will serve." (Josh. 24:15) "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you ... " (Jn. 15:16)
" ... whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God ... " (I Jn. 3:10) "All is of God" (II Cor. 5:18)
"Zechariah was just before God" (Lk. 1:5) (Comparing him to the corrupt priests) "Not one is just" (Rom. 3:10) (Comparing man with God)
One is the "relative" the other is the "absolute." One is from man's point of view, comparing men with men, the other is from God's point of view. One shows how a thing is perceived while the other shows how it actually is. One is for minors while the other is for the mature.
Both Scriptures are true. The relative is true and the absolute is true. They do not contradict. However, one really is "relative" while the other is "absolute."
Theologians are always taking Scriptures that speak of the relative, from man's point of view, and insist that these verses are absolute. By doing this they commit a double sin. Because then they insist that these relative truths actually nullify God's absolute declarations. They won't admit to this in their own words, but this is what they do when they retain the "relative" at the expense of rejecting the "absolute."
--- End quote ---
Please odading, if you are honestly seeking the truth, read the articles first! It's very difficult for most of us to answer you or speak with you properly because there is a rather large language barrier.
I hope what I have posted helps you.
God bless,
Alex
Dave in Tenn:
Have patience, Alex. English is not everybody's first language. Many people in the world are conversant in at least two. I can only speak one--and I'm hard to understand sometimes too.
Luk 12:7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Thanks for pointing to the relevant article, and the reminder that 'the forum' is just an adjunct to the materials.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on November 26, 2011, 03:46:58 PM ---Have patience, Alex. English is not everybody's first language. Many people in the world are conversant in at least two. I can only speak one--and I'm hard to understand sometimes too.
Luk 12:7 But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Thanks for pointing to the relevant article, and the reminder that 'the forum' is just an adjunct to the materials.
--- End quote ---
You're right, and I apologize for being impatient. I'm sorry Odading. You ask good questions and in my humblest opinion, if you are sincere about having your questions answered with an open mind then all any of us can do is refer you to ray's articles.
He's written an entire series on free will, it's four papers long but well worth the read. Almost ALL of your questions you've asked, are answered there in a way much better and complete then most of us an provide here.
I apologize Odading if I offended you, it was not my intention, as dave pointed out, I am slightly impatient and I will do my best to be more patient.
God bless,
Alex
odading:
--- Quote from: lilitalienboi16 on November 26, 2011, 02:36:09 PM ---Odading... Odading... You are so very difficult to understand.
--- End quote ---
I know ... I'm sorry ... :-[
--- Quote ---God's law is His way of intervening every second Odading. It's His way of ALWAYS being in control.
--- End quote ---
That's it. God's LAW... so in my understanding... His LAW which apply every sec.... not He Himself personally intervene.
--- Quote ---He's very much in control of everything, even the hairs on your head are numbered and not one will fall without His command.
--- End quote ---
So, God commanded one hair to fall (NOT "know in advance")... or God know one hair is to fall and let it happen ? ("know in advance").
--- Quote ---God did not "REPENT" in the sense that He was fooled into not seeing something happening and so had to change His mind.
--- End quote ---
As in my first post - I'm not assuming "God repent" as you quoted above, but something like "feel sorry".
So, what's the correct word in bible in exchange the word "God repent / God grieve" ?? to make clear that is not literally means "repent" as human do ?
--- Quote ---It appeared to man, that God had repented. To man, from man's perspective.
--- End quote ---
So it appeared to man, that God is loving, kind and just is only from man's perspective ?
--- Quote ---My Advice odading, please read rays articles. I'm fairly certain he talks about this specific verse you are asking about.
--- End quote ---
I'm reading it little by little... :)
Thank you for the advice, Alex. (but I haven't found Jeremiah potter&vessel yet)
--- Quote ---RELATIVE VS. ABSOLUTE: By L.RAY.SMITH
--- End quote ---
Below, is God Himself speaking (is it relative ? or absolute ?)
(7) At one time I will suddenly speak concerning a nation or kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it; (8) And if [the people of] that nation concerning which I have spoken turn from their evil, I will relent and reverse My decision concerning the evil that I thought to do to them.
(9) At another time I will suddenly speak concerning a nation or kingdom, that I will build up and plant it; (10) And if they do evil in My sight, obeying not My voice, then I will regret and reverse My decision concerning the good with which I said I would benefit them.
I know you will say the verses above are relative because God is not a man Who changes His mind - although in fact the words are directly spoken by God (absolute)
IMO, it is absolute but I myself don't assume the verses above mean God change His mind, but it's because of the LAW. There is if...then... in those verses.
"I will relent and reverse" is not the literal meaning. In fact if the sentence like this : "I will NOT relent and reverse" - then that certainly God change His mind.
But the point of my topic is not about repent or change mind. (I'm sorry if it's mistakenly understood by the reader). My point is : does God love human sincerely ?
If the answer is NO : then the term "regret, grieve, love, mercy" don't have a meaning at all. His Sovereign is only for His own sake so He can "feel the illusion" that He loves and being loved (by human) - by "programming" all what human do in their daily activities in every sec.
God need to "feel the illusion" that He grieves, so He "stage" human acts which can cause Him grieve.
Human don't do anything which make him "regret or grieve", Peter cry was just a running program, praying is just an illusion.
What human see that God is merciful actually never happen - It is God who made the condition on earth so it seems He is a merciful in human's eye.
Hope and promise the same thing... there is no hope as there is only an illusion promise, mere a programmed promise.
If the answer is YES : then from the very first time He warned Adam not to eat the fruit - has already shown that He does love human sincerely.
God sovereign is in past-present-future. He doesn't need to be in a long time before (the beginning) to know in advanced, He can be now in the present to know what I'm going to type next. He is now in the present "listening" human pray.
God "grieve" sincerely when human don't follow His if...then... according His own good desire.. Wiping out all creature in Noah's flood is NOT because he is mad literally (in fact in the verse He grieved) - but because His LAW must work.
His promise to human, based on if...then... according His own good desire is a truly promise, so the human hope is there. Only God knows which person who loves Him sincerely and that love comes because this person feel God's sincere love.
The Pharaoh, Saul stories is an extraordinary miracle...and yes, in this kind of case - nobody can resist if God will. For me, the most extraordinary miracle is His Grace of Life on earth.
because it's an extraordinary, then it's not contradict to this verse :
(10) And showing mercy and steadfast love to thousands and to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commandments.
God didn;t say :
of those whom I programmed/forced to love me and keep My commandments. :)
and if human don;t need to be responsible to whatever they do,
any airlines can simply put :
Time of departure 10:30 am, maybe earlier maybe later depends on God will, don't put the blame on us. ;D
Finally, if I believe God will intervene human acts every sec - then how am I going to interpret verses which contains "God love, mercy, grieve, kind, etc" ?
thank you for your respond, Alex.
regards,
odading.
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