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Author Topic: Why God grieved, repented and changed ?  (Read 2961 times)

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odading

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Why God grieved, repented and changed ?
« on: November 26, 2011, 08:45:07 AM »

I know that God never changed.

But I've been thinking, why in the Bible verse have a sentence that God grieved and/or feel sorry (or even looks like He changed his mind) ? Has this anything to do with His "good character" loving, kind, graceful, merciful, etc ?

IMHO,
to show that God is loving, kind, graceful, merciful - the first thing is God need to make a Law for human during live on earth in their daily activities. (this Law is the one that I assume LAW-Cause&Effect).

When there is a law then there is a condition, if.... then .... where this if... then ... will always change depends on what human do on earth.
Sometimes in extraordinary case, God did intervene in this Law, but most of the time He let His Law to work by itself. (if God intervene in His Law every sec, then why bother making the law ? :))

From the above statement,
I now can "understand" why did God grieve/feel sorry in bible verse : The result of what human do based on the if...then... is the one that made Him sad,

or ...

did God make all things what human do on earth for the sake of His own self so He can grieve, repent, feel sorry, etc ?

regards,
odading.
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Why God grieved, repented and changed ?
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2011, 05:36:09 PM »

I know that God never changed.

But I've been thinking, why in the Bible verse have a sentence that God grieved and/or feel sorry (or even looks like He changed his mind) ? Has this anything to do with His "good character" loving, kind, graceful, merciful, etc ?

IMHO,
to show that God is loving, kind, graceful, merciful - the first thing is God need to make a Law for human during live on earth in their daily activities. (this Law is the one that I assume LAW-Cause&Effect).

When there is a law then there is a condition, if.... then .... where this if... then ... will always change depends on what human do on earth.
Sometimes in extraordinary case, God did intervene in this Law, but most of the time He let His Law to work by itself. (if God intervene in His Law every sec, then why bother making the law ? :))

From the above statement,
I now can "understand" why did God grieve/feel sorry in bible verse : The result of what human do based on the if...then... is the one that made Him sad,

or ...

did God make all things what human do on earth for the sake of His own self so He can grieve, repent, feel sorry, etc ?

regards,
odading.

Odading... Odading... You are so very difficult to understand.

God's law is His way of intervening every second Odading. It's His way of ALWAYS being in control. He didn't just start a car, put a brick on the throttle and step out and watch it go on its own. He's very much in control of everything, even the hairs on your head are numbered and not one will fall without His command.

God did not "REPENT" in the sense that He was fooled into not seeing something happening and so had to change His mind. There are things written in the bible that are written from the context of human perspective. It appeared to man, that God had repented. To man, from man's perspective. From God's perspective, this change was one He had planned to make and so He was not taken by surprise.

My Advice odading, please read rays articles. I'm fairly certain he talks about this specific verse you are asking about.

In ray's own words;

Quote
Relative VS absolute in the scriptures
Their is no such thing as contradictions in the bible, and many who create the contradictions list have little understanding of what is relative, and what is absolute. They are not men filled with God's spirit, let alone converted men. A man of God understands His Word does not contradict. (sorry these are my words here, this is taken from a blog I wrote, ignore the first sentance here. ray begins with the bolded part)

RELATIVE VS. ABSOLUTE: By L.RAY.SMITH

If a theologian can't see the "absolute" versus the "relative" in Scripture, he is in no position to teach anyone.

A little boys asks: "Why did God say in Gen. 3:9: 'Where art thou [Adam]?' Mommy says that God knows everything." (I Jn 3:20). You say, "Of course God knew where Adam was. Adam sinned. Adam felt bad. He thought he could hide from God. God was condescending to man's level. It was for Adam's benefit that God asked, 'Where art thou Adam?'" You say, "That's not a problem. That's easy to understand and answer. It's stupid to think that God didn't know where Adam was."

And, of course, we have Scriptural proof that God knew where Adam was because "He [God] knows all" (I Jn 3:20)

Neither did our Lord ask questions out of ignorance:

"Believe ye that I am able to do this?" (Matt. 9:28)

"Who is my mother, and who are my brethren?" (Matt. 12:48)

"How many loaves have ye?" (Matt. 15:34)

"Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?" (Matt. 116:13)

Christ asked dozens of questions during His ministry. But He already knew all the answers:

" ... because of His knowing ALL men ... " (Matt. 21:27).

Christ even answered questions by asking questions. The Pharisees asked why His disciples transgressed the "traditions." Our Lord knew how to "answer a fool according to his folly" (Prov. 26:5) by asking: "Wherefore are you also transgressing the precept of God because of your tradition?" (Mat. 15:3)

This brings up another apparent contradiction, however, because Prov. 26:4 says: "answer not a fool according to his folly ... " Our Lord knew how to do that as well: "Neither am I telling you by what authority I am doing these things." (Mat. 21:27). These two scriptures in Proverbs should teach us to never pit one verse of Scripture against another. Verse 4 and 5 do not contradict. They are both true.

So if it's stupid to think that God didn't really know where Adam was, a relative statement condescending to man's level, isn't it then, likewise, stupid to believe that God contradicts Himself in the following verses:

 
THE RELATIVE VS THE ABSOLUTE:
 
" ... seek, and ye shall find ... " (Mat. 7:7) "Not one is seeking out God" (Rom. 3:11)

"God changed His mind" (Ex. 32:14) "God is not a man Who changes His mind" (I Sam. 15:29)

" ... choose you this day whom ye will serve." (Josh. 24:15) "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you ... " (Jn. 15:16)

" ... whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God ... " (I Jn. 3:10) "All is of God" (II Cor. 5:18)

"Zechariah was just before God" (Lk. 1:5) (Comparing him to the corrupt priests) "Not one is just" (Rom. 3:10) (Comparing man with God)

One is the "relative" the other is the "absolute." One is from man's point of view, comparing men with men, the other is from God's point of view. One shows how a thing is perceived while the other shows how it actually is. One is for minors while the other is for the mature.

Both Scriptures are true. The relative is true and the absolute is true. They do not contradict. However, one really is "relative" while the other is "absolute."

Theologians are always taking Scriptures that speak of the relative, from man's point of view, and insist that these verses are absolute. By doing this they commit a double sin. Because then they insist that these relative truths actually nullify God's absolute declarations. They won't admit to this in their own words, but this is what they do when they retain the "relative" at the expense of rejecting the "absolute."

Please odading, if you are honestly seeking the truth, read the articles first! It's very difficult for most of us to answer you or speak with you properly because there is a rather large language barrier.

I hope what I have posted helps you.

God bless,

Alex
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 06:09:29 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Dave in Tenn

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Re: Why God grieved, repented and changed ?
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2011, 06:46:58 PM »

Have patience, Alex.  English is not everybody's first language.  Many people in the world are conversant in at least two.  I can only speak one--and I'm hard to understand sometimes too.

Luk 12:7  But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Thanks for pointing to the relevant article, and the reminder that 'the forum' is just an adjunct to the materials.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 06:55:18 PM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

lilitalienboi16

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Re: Why God grieved, repented and changed ?
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2011, 07:15:31 PM »

Have patience, Alex.  English is not everybody's first language.  Many people in the world are conversant in at least two.  I can only speak one--and I'm hard to understand sometimes too.

Luk 12:7  But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Thanks for pointing to the relevant article, and the reminder that 'the forum' is just an adjunct to the materials.


You're right, and I apologize for being impatient. I'm sorry Odading. You ask good questions and in my humblest opinion, if you are sincere about having your questions answered with an open mind then all any of us can do is refer you to ray's articles.

He's written an entire series on free will, it's four papers long but well worth the read. Almost ALL of your questions you've asked, are answered there in a way much better and complete then most of us an provide here.

I apologize Odading if I offended you, it was not my intention, as dave pointed out, I am slightly impatient and I will do my best to be more patient.

God bless,

Alex
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1 Cor 1:10 "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

odading

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Re: Why God grieved, repented and changed ?
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2011, 05:22:08 PM »

Odading... Odading... You are so very difficult to understand.
I know ... I'm sorry ...  :-[

Quote
God's law is His way of intervening every second Odading. It's His way of ALWAYS being in control.
That's it. God's LAW... so in my understanding... His LAW which apply every sec.... not He Himself personally intervene.

Quote
He's very much in control of everything, even the hairs on your head are numbered and not one will fall without His command.
So, God commanded one hair to fall (NOT "know in advance")... or God know one hair is to fall and let it happen ? ("know in advance").

Quote
God did not "REPENT" in the sense that He was fooled into not seeing something happening and so had to change His mind.
As in my first post - I'm not assuming "God repent" as you quoted above, but something like "feel sorry".

So, what's the correct word in bible in exchange the word "God repent / God grieve" ?? to make clear that is not literally means "repent" as human do ?

Quote
It appeared to man, that God had repented. To man, from man's perspective.
So it appeared to man, that God is loving, kind and just is only from man's perspective ?

Quote
My Advice odading, please read rays articles. I'm fairly certain he talks about this specific verse you are asking about.
I'm reading it little by little... :)
Thank you for the advice, Alex. (but I haven't found Jeremiah potter&vessel yet)


Quote
RELATIVE VS. ABSOLUTE: By L.RAY.SMITH
Below, is God Himself speaking (is it relative ? or absolute ?)

(7) At one time I will suddenly speak concerning a nation or kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it; (8) And if [the people of] that nation concerning which I have spoken turn from their evil, I will relent and reverse My decision concerning the evil that I thought to do to them.

(9) At another time I will suddenly speak concerning a nation or kingdom, that I will build up and plant it; (10) And if they do evil in My sight, obeying not My voice, then I will regret and reverse My decision concerning the good with which I said I would benefit them.


I know you will say the verses above are relative because God is not a man Who changes His mind - although in fact the words are directly spoken by God (absolute)

IMO, it is absolute but I myself don't assume the verses above mean God change His mind, but it's because of the LAW. There is if...then... in those verses.

"I will relent and reverse" is not the literal meaning. In fact if the sentence like this : "I will NOT relent and reverse" - then that certainly God change His mind.

But the point of my topic is not about repent or change mind. (I'm sorry if it's mistakenly understood by the reader). My point is : does God love human sincerely ?

If the answer is NO : then the term "regret, grieve, love, mercy" don't have a meaning at all. His Sovereign is only for His own sake so He can "feel the illusion" that He loves and being loved (by human) - by "programming" all what human do in their daily activities in every sec.

God need to "feel the illusion" that He grieves, so He "stage" human acts which can cause Him grieve.

Human don't do anything which make him "regret or grieve", Peter cry was just a running program, praying is just an illusion.

What human see that God is merciful actually never happen - It is God who made the condition on earth so it seems He is a merciful in human's eye.

Hope and promise the same thing... there is no hope as there is only an illusion promise, mere a programmed promise.



If the answer is YES : then from the very first time He warned Adam not to eat the fruit - has already shown that He does love human sincerely.

God sovereign is in past-present-future. He doesn't need to be in a long time before (the beginning) to know in advanced, He can be now in the present to know what I'm going to type next. He is now in the present "listening" human pray.

God "grieve" sincerely when human don't follow His if...then... according His own good desire.. Wiping out all creature in Noah's flood is NOT because he is mad literally (in fact in the verse He grieved) - but because His LAW must work.

His promise to human, based on if...then... according His own good desire is a truly promise, so the human hope is there. Only God knows which person who loves Him sincerely and that love comes because this person feel God's sincere love.


The Pharaoh, Saul stories is an extraordinary miracle...and yes, in this kind of case - nobody can resist if God will. For me, the most extraordinary miracle is His Grace of Life on earth.

because it's an extraordinary, then it's not contradict to this verse :
(10) And showing mercy and steadfast love to thousands and to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commandments.

God didn;t say :
of those whom I programmed/forced to love me and keep My commandments. :)

and if human don;t need to be responsible to whatever they do,
any airlines can simply put :
Time of departure 10:30 am, maybe earlier maybe later depends on God will, don't put the blame on us.  ;D

Finally, if I believe God will intervene human acts every sec - then how am I going to interpret verses which contains "God love, mercy, grieve, kind, etc" ?

thank you for your respond, Alex.

regards,
odading.
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odading

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Re: Why God grieved, repented and changed ?
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2011, 05:24:55 PM »

I'm sorry Odading.
Please don't be Alex.
I'm fully aware that my post is stubborn, stupid and crazy.

Didn't I have the shame to put stupid post here ? I should, but I don't... because what I post is from my heart - and NEVER have the intention of "this is right, that is wrong".

I'm assuming I'm also the believer that God will intervene human daily life in every sec, but from reading the bible verse, I can't find a sentence which can lead to be interpreted like that. (in other words - some of Ray's interpretation is not the same with me).

I've been in my own language Christian Forum.
1. Their interpretation of Father, Son and Holy Spirit is different with me.
2. They say fallen angels, I don't find a verse which can lead to be interpreted like that.
3. I don't believe in heaven and hell, they do.

I'm not seeing them (the members there) is wrong and I am right (or vise versa) - I still befriends with them, still posting in that forum and they are always welcome to me. I just feel - somewhat that I don't "belong" to them.

Then I googled, then I arrived on Ray's website - and I knew that I'm not alone, as those 3 points above mentioned is Ray's page are the same of my understanding.

Then I realize, how complicated my human mind ... Found "match" of 3 points above - but still it turned out there is another thing that don't "match"  ;D

As in my first post,
I do believe God's WILL - but only in His WILL about human life and death.
In that, I clearly see how human is nothing and powerless - I'm not supposed to be proud of what good and bad things had happened or will happen to me. It will be nothing after I type this text then I die instantly.

In my understanding, God indeed controls human - but when God said "you can eat all the fruit..." - IMO that doesn't mean God control this second Adam will eat mango, another second Adam will eat papaya.

I am more take a simple example, that how God control human is the same how parents control their children. (I know it can't be applied exactly ... :)).

Quote
He's written an entire series on free will, it's four papers long but well worth the read.
Thanks for the advice, I'm in the part two reading now... :)

once again, please... you don't need to apologize. Whatever you want to say, just shoot ... I'm immune in my stubbornness ...  ;D

For Dave, thank you once again for understanding me...
and I'm sorry if this respond is out of topic.
btw I've tried to download the audio, but my poor connection always disconnected after a long download time waiting (time out).

regards,
odading.
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cjwood

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Re: Why God grieved, repented and changed ?
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2011, 06:21:27 PM »

odading, i just wanted to say i enjoy your questions and the answers that come from the bt forum members.  yes, your english is a little challenging to understand, but i find if i reread your posts slowly i can understand what you are saying.

i hope you continue to stay in the forum.  your questions will be answered.  God's Spirit is surely here with us, in us, guiding us, as we continue to love Him above all others, and as we continue to follow His commandments.

stand strong in the faith He has given you.  keep your eyes focused on Him and you will see His handiwork everywhere you look.

claudia
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Why God grieved, repented and changed ?
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2011, 09:23:37 PM »

Odading, now we may be getting down to the root.  You believe that God 'intervenes' miraculously, and that the rest of the time, things happen according to the laws of cause and affect.  Either way--end of FREE will--no such thing.    

You are correct that the scripture about hairs does not say God commands each one to fall.  He does know, we can understand from that verse alone.  But consider what scripture DOES say.

Eph 1:7-11  ...according to the riches of His grace which He caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and understanding, making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, for the administration of the fullness of the times to head up all things in Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things on earth, in Him, in whom we also have been chosen to an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of the One working all things according to the counsel of His own will...

If the Butterfly Effect (the notion that the flapping of a butterfly's wing in one part of the world causes a flood in another part of the world) is true, then even the falling of our hairs might be part of the overall plan and purpose of God.  The verse itself is 'about' His care and Love.

We are not 'programmed' to love God, or to obey Him.  If anything, we are 'programmed' to NOT love God nor obey Him.  We HAVE to go through this in order to develop the character of God.  We WILL learn to do the will of the Father and we WILL come to love Him with all our hearts.  Not because we always wanted to--we don't even know who He is until He tells us--but because He first loved us.  In this way, He IS guiding us as a parent would--if the parent was Almighty God and the child was destined to be in His image.  We may coddle and protect infants, but it takes some suffering to mature when we've grown up a little.

1Jn 4:9,10  By this was the love of God revealed in us, because God has sent His only-begotten Son into the world, so that we should live through Him.  In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son [as] a propitiation [or, appeasing sacrifice] concerning our sins.

When was this Love revealed?  In Eden?  In Israel?  They are just shadows of the reality.  I have a feeling--though don't take it as theology--that God 'grieved' in part, because the time had not yet come when He could express (reveal) the Love He has.    

I don't think we know the external will of God at any single moment.  It seems like it can veer off in any direction, though it will always be the way He foreknew and pre-ordained.  That's why we walk by faith.  I don't believe we can know the will of God for the future, unless it's revealed to us--again, by faith.  I do believe we can know the will of God as it has already happened, but that too requires faith.  It's looking back that reveals it, even if it's not in full.

To be honest, I think 'we' see more evidence of the 'miraculous' than you might imagine.  We're coming to know a God who is not outside His creation, peeking in from time to time and tweaking things, but it takes more than a few verses to see that.  The SUM of His word is truth.

You already understand that there is only so much the forum can do.  There's only so much it's designed to do.  I wish I could answer your question about the verses in Jeremiah directly.  Maybe somebody else can.  But if you would like to pose the question to Ray, I'd be more than happy to help you put it into more standard English, if I can and you want.

Side note:  I understand poor connections.  I had a 28.8k dialup connection when I first was on B-T.  It took me a month's worth of trying to stream enough 'video' to even get much of a glimpse at what he looked like.   :D  There are transcripts of all or most of the 'talks' too.  Let us know which one, and we can link directly, or you can poke around here:   http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/board,12.0.html  

 
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 12:51:54 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Why God grieved, repented and changed ?
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2011, 09:29:30 PM »

One more thought:  If you are willing to answer, what is your native language?  It may be possible there is somebody on the forum who knows it. 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

indianabob

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Re: Why God grieved, repented and changed ?
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2011, 12:46:11 AM »

Basic style and format :

Most of the problem in uttering the Balinese language by foreigners is caused by the westernization process of the spelling-out the native Balinese words. Most written Balinese words usually said in a different way by a foreigner so that no Balinese could even understand.

Starting from now, we will try to spell out the native Balinese words phonetically as in english words but in bold segments so that the words could sound as what they really sound in the real Balinese language, so anyone can read the words phonetically and be able to pronounce the words clearly (with a little practice, of course).

Notes : Make sure the part of the word which is not printed in bold is not pronounced.

For example : the word "Bli" (in Balinese language, literally means "Older brother") sounds like "Bleep" without the "p" sound at the end.

Here are some Balinese language pronouns for example so that you could start to learn the Balinese language instantly ...

English   Balinese   Pronounced
I, me   Tiang   Tea-young
You / He (older male)   Bli   Bleep
You / He (younger male)   Gus   Ghost
You / She (female)   Gek   Gecko
Mother / Mom   Meme   May-May
Father / Dad   Bapa   Bath-Power
To be continued ... (~_^)


http://coralreeffish.com/balinese.htm
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