Troubles about Paul now...real apostle or not?

[Dave in Tenn]

This thread is hanging by a thread.     If it's gone on too long, blame me.

Gene, real deep spiritual truth is hard to come by.  Many would rather believe the lie.  I understand where at least some of your 'concerns' come from as I've had some of them myself.  They don't hold up under closer reading or other witnesses of Scripture which don't contradict.  I couldn't be happier (in my own case) that they do not.  Peter said that parts of Paul's writings were hard to understand, but Peter understood them.  Maybe you and I and the rest of us should be striving and praying to understand them too. 

It seems to me that a brief conversation/discussion with someone else has eroded your faith.  If that's just my imagination and not the case, then I'm sorry...though although I spent three hours trying to allay just ONE of your issues, you didn't even take the few seconds necessary to answer my questions--so it's at least understandable if I misunderstood.

I suppose in my ignorance it might be possible that you came here already convinced of Paul's alleged heresy.  I'd just have to refer you to the rules if that's the case.

It's discouraging to think of someone cutting out so much wisdom, information, practical real-life advice, psychological understanding, and help available in Paul's writings.  But let me tell you something I believe to be truth.  IF you decide to go the way you've indicated and 'believe and obey' only the words Jesus spoke, in the course of doing so, you will come to understand Paul, though it will be the hard way.  What a shame to let a religious hobbyist rob you of that treasure. 

Dig deeper and try to 'get it' now before you toss it away.  THAT'S why this thread is still running. 

[DougE6]

I was wondering the Satanic source of this screwball idea that Paul was not a true apostle and his writings were false because those propounding it in this thread didn't seem to be ........

So I googled "******* ****, ***** *******".  Man o man, you wouldn't believe the religious nuts behind that concept!

Some of the phrasings and ideas used by the false teachers on the other websites were also used by those pushing the ideas in this thread.

I had never before heard of anyone questioning Paul and his writings as scriptural.  But I guess you can find any nutty idea on the internet.  The false teachers on the internet seem to be sacred names and Old Testament oriented and Calvinists who do not like Paul's emphasis on universal salvation.

I feel the need to take a shower.  Every form of foul idea can be found and justified on the internet.

John from Kentucky, I could not agree more.

[lilitalienboi16]

I know I said I would leave this thread alone but I just wanted to agree with John and Rene.

I really feel that believing Paul is a heretic, is blasphemy.

[Dave in Tenn]

I know that there are a lot of -isms that don't regard Paul.  He gets it from every direction.  Many times these -isms are easy to spot.  There are also 'believers' in the whole scripture who do not regard Paul except by lip-service.  That's been the story of my babylonian-captivity.   

Paul's writings are right there with every believer from the new-born babe to the maturing.  I'm not very 'mature' but as a maturing believer, I'm confident that they will continue to be there.  The Gospel of the Kingdom is true.

I'm aware that this thread pushes the envelope of what is the purpose of the forum.  If I've been wrong to leave it open, then I've been wrong and will learn from it.  I hoped in the beginning that the replies from our members would be helpful for each other and for those reading, including any here that might be 'on the fence' or 'almost persuaded'.  I've not been disappointed.  If we're finished, there's no reason to leave it open.

[Revilonivek]

you say this is blasphemy to question Paul. It is the same mindset for those who call it blasphemy to question the Catholic POPE or those who hold high positions in church. It is the very thing that got us kicked out of church. Always Question, Always be through- Always ask hard questions. Always. It led you here to bible truths, didn't it? 

It is not the end of the road, so you know that. We are always learning.. Truths are always revealing.. It is beautiful as we grow more and more.

Of course scriptures teach we are to question always, test always... It is already clear that people here are uncomfortable questioning Paul.  I understand that completely. For me.. something just doesn't' seem right. call it a gut feeling. Something tells me to look closer.  Of course There are websites everywhere that talks crazy things about Paul... they are not even concise at all. It's crazy talk. There are also crazy talk about Jesus or God, and whatever.. It is the nuggets in a field that you find.. you have to dig., You have to learn,, you have to study, you have to search.. There will be always crazy talk everywhere. There's bound to be nuggets that make sense.

Remember the scriptures when Paul was first  converted and wanted to join the apostles and the Apostles didn't trust him either??? It is much later, maybe years that Peter says its okay to trust him. It is the same with us.. Imagine someone who killed your families, best friends, disciples, and so on, suddenly say he was converted. Of course you would be apprehensive at first. It's a matter of time and knowing Paul. I don't do it by blind acceptance. I look. You learn best this way... not by blind acceptance. I have to know Paul first. It is the same way as knowing Jesus and God. We search.

If its easy for you to accept Paul just because Peter clearly sees Paul as a brother. Then so be it. its for you. I just don't understand why Aninas-a man of God and who in the scriptures say is also zealous of the law healed Paul when he was blind, Why James confronted Paul and it seems like James were zealous of the Law as well and with other elders. Why did the Jews Christians in Asia who was apparently with James accuse Paul of teaching lawlessness? Why didn't they buy his story?  It is the little things. I jave to search for myself.

Denise

[Dave in Tenn]

While you're searching, search here.  I don't think you'll find any crazy talk.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9742.0.html

[lilitalienboi16]

you say this is blasphemy to question Paul. It is the same mindset for those who call it blasphemy to question the Catholic POPE or those who hold high positions in church. It is the very thing that got us kicked out of church. Always Question, Always be through- Always ask hard questions. Always. It led you here to bible truths, didn't it? 

It is not the end of the road, so you know that. We are always learning.. Truths are always revealing.. It is beautiful as we grow more and more.

Of course scriptures teach we are to question always, test always... It is already clear that people here are uncomfortable questioning Paul.  I understand that completely. For me.. something just doesn't' seem right. call it a gut feeling. Something tells me to look closer.  Of course There are websites everywhere that talks crazy things about Paul... they are not even concise at all. It's crazy talk. There are also crazy talk about Jesus or God, and whatever.. It is the nuggets in a field that you find.. you have to dig., You have to learn,, you have to study, you have to search.. There will be always crazy talk everywhere. There's bound to be nuggets that make sense.

Remember the scriptures when Paul was first  converted and wanted to join the apostles and the Apostles didn't trust him either??? It is much later, maybe years that Peter says its okay to trust him. It is the same with us.. Imagine someone who killed your families, best friends, disciples, and so on, suddenly say he was converted. Of course you would be apprehensive at first. It's a matter of time and knowing Paul. I don't do it by blind acceptance. I look. You learn best this way... not by blind acceptance. I have to know Paul first. It is the same way as knowing Jesus and God. We search.

If its easy for you to accept Paul just because Peter clearly sees Paul as a brother. Then so be it. its for you. I just don't understand why Aninas-a man of God and who in the scriptures say is also zealous of the law healed Paul when he was blind, Why James confronted Paul and it seems like James were zealous of the Law as well and with other elders. Why did the Jews Christians in Asia who was apparently with James accuse Paul of teaching lawlessness? Why didn't they buy his story?  It is the little things. I jave to search for myself.

Denise

Wait a minute here Denise. You are seriously confused. There is a huge difference between questioning the pope and questioning paul. Paul is called by the other apostles, "Beloved brother" and a man "FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT." The apostles NEVER call the pope that. The apostle paul also has scripture that is INSPIRED BY GOD and FOUND in GOD'S WORD. The pope has NO SCRIPTURES that are canonized in the Word of God.

2 Peter 3:15 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;"

Acts 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.

Luke even says God did special miracles by the hands of paul:

Acts 19:11 "And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:"

People here are unconformable questioning paul because THERE IS NO GOOD REASON. You won't even accept the words of the apostles as good authority not to question him. Not just peters BUT LUKES ALSO! Luke is the one who wrote that paul was FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. These words are INSPIRED BY GOD. You have already decided in your mind that paul is a heretic, you have twisted the word to your own destruction. You would rather believe that damnable heresy than believe what the very words of God tell you, what the APOSTLES WHO KNEW PAUL WROTE OF HIM!

There is nothing wrong in questioning Denise, but notice we did not say questioning is the issue. We said BELIEVING that paul is a heretic is the issue. You've decided in your mind, regardless of what is said by those of authority (Peter, Luke, THE WORD OF GOD) that you would rather interpret individual verses in such a way as to pit them against what the apostles have said and thereby creating a contradiction and blasphemous doctrine.

You can be alone in that and I will not stand idly by why you say it's no different than questioning the pope. That is a LIE there is a HUGE difference and I just layed it out for you.

Anyone who believes paul is a heretic is completely lost on this matter refusing to believe the scriptures. Treading places I will not go.

I'm responding because I can't allow your post to cause doubt in the minds of those who are young thereby causing them confusion and being mislead. There is ample reason, scriptural proof, to NEVER consider paul anything less than a BELOVED BROTHER FILLED WITH HOLY SPIRIT, you have nothing but your own interpretations on what paul ment when he spoke, that creates doubt in your head as to pauls authenticity but we can see through plains statements in the Word of God that paul was no heretic.

God be with you,

Alex

[Dave in Tenn]

Another attempt for Gene.

There is no mention in Ephesians of false teachers or prophets or 'those who say they are apostles but are not'.  The Ephesians were overcoming the world, the flesh and the devil.  Paul mentions all of these...but no mention of false preachers, apostles, prophets.  FALSE preachers, apostles and prophets are not the confusion and sin of the world, but of the CHURCH.  There is no heathen sinner out there claiming to be an Apostle or Minister of the Gospel.  As soon as he might, he's a "christian".  It's axiomatic that these are professing christians.

I don't know of another church to which Paul wrote where he did NOT write against those who came (or were to come) 'preaching'  lies, or presenting themselves as Apostles but were not, or some other spiritual match to those terms.

Begs the question.  Why wouldn't Paul warn or try to turn the believers away from false apostles in his letter to Ephesus when it was such an imporant part of his message to others?  Could it be because the Ephesians had not been seduced into recieving or believing or bearing them?  Had they tried "those saying", and found them false?  Did they refuse to bear the evil men that the Corinthians endured/enjoyed?

Why would the Spirit say 'write' in Rev. 2:2 that they had? 

"I am aware of your acts, and your toil, and your endurance, and that you can not bear evil men, and you try those saying that they themselves are apostles, and they are not, and you found them false..."

Read Ephesians to see if Paul agreed with the Spirit in Rev. 2.2. 

I hate to turn this "nice letter" into a proof text against whatever -ism is causing you to want to reject Paul.  But it sure sounds to me like the ministry of Paul WORKED in Ephesus regarding "trying those", and that he had no need to write 'hard words' to them after he left them.     

[newgene87]

Thank you Dave for your kind words. Thank you so much. Cause even I've been takn out of context smh. To squash it all; I was only SHAKEY, and I came to my family/forum for guidance that's it. Wasn't expecting the assault. Thanks tho. I will continue to pray, and like the person, Jesus is still the Savior of the Word

[Dave in Tenn]

Yes, Jesus is still the Savior of the world.  Praise God, the Savior actually saves.  He saves us from sin, from error, from babylon, from blasphemy and heresy, from every lying spirit that seeks to divert us from the truth, and from every other evil.  Each in his own turn.

It may seem to you like those who 'believe Paul' are the 'many'.  I don't for a minute believe that's true.  "Many" don't because they don't see/understand.  "Many" don't because they leave out, ignore, or 'preach' away what he says about the salvation of all.  And "many" don't because they don't obey. 

Jesus saved Paul.  Jesus made him an Apostle.  Jesus inspired his life, sufferings, and his writings.

Hang in there.