> General Discussions
How to explain God's role in tradgedy
octoberose:
I'm having a discussion with someone and I know this is something they want to talk about. We know God is Sovereign but I was looking on Bibletruths to see what Ray says specifically about those who are the victims of violence or violent accidents. There's a lot I think I know, but in trying to find certain scripture I'm not sure I'm on solid ground. Can any of you help me with this- either both scripture and Ray's understanding of scripture on this subject? Thank-you.
Deborah-Leigh:
NOW A FEW BIBLICAL EXAMPLES OF WHAT GOD CAUSES:
EARTHQUAKES :
The Christmas tsunami was caused by an under water earthquake. Pat Robertson says this earthquake was not from the Lord. Earthquakes are mentioned in 17 verses of Scripture, and everyone one of them is FROM THE LORD:
“You shall be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake…” (Isa. 29:6).
“And, behold, there was a great earthquake for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven…” (Matt. 28:2). Etcetera,
After each category of evil that I will Scripturally prove comes from God, we need to ask ourselves, “Does God ‘allow’ all of these things, or does God create, cause, and bring these evils upon humanity?” God does not “allow” earthquakes, but rather He causes and brings earthquakes. I will give a second witness to each of these categories, although with some of these evils, there are hundreds of Scriptural examples.
FLOODS :
“And with the blast of Thy [God’s] nostrils the waters were gathered together [Heb: ‘piled up’], the floods stood upright as an heap [Heb: ‘mound, a wave’ as in the tsunami quake which caused a huge wave!], and the depths [Heb: ‘an abyss (as a surging mass of water), especially the deep (the main sea or the subterranean water-supply), Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary] were congealed in the heart of the sea” (Exodus 15:8).
Sounds pretty much like what God did in the Indian Ocean to destroy the coastal regions of Indonesia, doesn’t it? Theologians refuse to believe that God would purposefully CAUSE the Christmas tsunami:
“And, Behold! I [GOD] even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, where in is the breath of life, from under heaven; and everything that is in the earth shall die” (Gen. 6:17).
Does Mr. Robertson believe that this too was just a “subduction of one of the tectonic plates in the ocean?” Was it really just “a natural release of heat in the atmosphere?” Or was it a work of God to “…destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth…”? (Gen. 6:7).
PLAGUES AND DISEASE :
“Moreover He will bring upon you all the diseases of Egypt, which you were afraid of and they shall cleave unto you. Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of the law, them will the Lord bring upon you, until you be destroyed” (Deut. 28:60-61)
“The LORD shall smite you with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue you until you perish” (Deut. 28:22).
POVERTY :
“The LORD makes poor…” (I Sam. 2:7).
“The rich and poor meet together: the Lord is the maker of all” (Prov. 22:2).
FAMINE :
“Moreover He [God] called for a famine upon the land: He broke the whole staff of bread” (Psalm 105:16).
“And I [God] will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from the land…” (Jer. 24:10).
AFFLICTIONS :
“…the Lord has testified against me, and the Almighty has afflicted [Heb: ‘to make good for nothing’] me” (Ruth 1:21).
“And the Lord rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them [Heb: ‘hurt and weakened’]” (II Kings 17:20).
THE SWORD :
“I [God] will consume them by the sword…” (Jer. 14:12).
“I [God] will scatter them also among the heathen, whom neither they nor their father have known: and I will send a sword after them, till I have consumed them” (Jer. 9:16).
WAR :
“The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is His name” (Ex. 15:3).
“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse, and He that sat upon Him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he does judge and make war” (Rev. 19:11).
DESTRUCTION :
“Howl! Ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty” (Isa. 13:6).
“Alas for the day! For the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come” (Joel 1:15).
“PESTILENCE:
“And I will smite the inhabitants of this city, both man and beast: they shall DIE of a great pestilence” (Jer. 21:6).
“If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people…” (II Chron. 7:13).
HAIL :
“Behold, tomorrow about this time I will CAUSE it to rain a very grievous hail, such as has not been in Egypt since the foundation thereof even until now” (Ex. 9:18).
“I smote you with blasting and with mildew and with hail in all the labors of your hands, yet ye turned not to me, saith the Lord” (Haggai 2:17).
ICE, COLD AND FROST :
“He casts forth His ice like morsels: who can stand before His cold?” (Psalm 147:17).
“He DESTROYED their vines with hail, and their sycamore trees with frost” (Psalm 78:47).
KILLING :
"And My wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless” (Ex. 22:24).
“To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven… a time to kill…” (Ecc. 3:1 & 3).
SLAUGHTER :
“And the Lord discomfited them before Israel; and slew them with a great slaughter…” (Joshua 10:10).
“For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He has utterly destroyed them, he has delivered them to the slaughter” ( Isa. 34:2).
CALAMITY :
“I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy; I will show them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity” (Jer. 18:17).
“…and I will bring their calamity from all sides thereof, says the Lord” (Jer. 49:32).
WIND :
“You break the ships of Tarshish with an east wind…” (Psalm 48:7).
“Thus says the Lord; Behold, I will raise up against Babylon… a destroying wind” (Jer. 51:1).
GRIEF :
“You did say, Woe is me now! For the Lord has added grief to my sorrow; I fainted in my sighing, and I find no rest” (Jer. 45:3).
“But though He [God] cause grief, yet will He have compassion according to the multitude of His mercies” (Lam. 3:32).
FIRE :
“Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven” (Gen. 19:24).
“And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them” (Rev. 20:9).
FOREST FIRES :
“…I will kindle a fire in the forest thereof, and it shall devour all things round about it” (Jer. 21:14).
“And say to the forest… I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee…” (Ezek. 20:47).
WILD BEASTS :
“I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate” (Lev. 26:22).
“They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust” (Deut. 32:24).
EVIL :
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil” (Isa. 45:7).
“And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow… the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (Gen. 2:9).
“It is an experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it” (Ecc. 1:13, Concordant Literal Old Testament).
“Out of the mouth of the most High proceeds not evil and good?” (Lam. 3:38).
“I will raise up evil against you out of your own house…” (II Sam. 12:11).
“…I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction” (Jer. 4:6).
“…Hear, O earth; behold, I will bring evil upon this people…” (Jer. 6:19).
“…Thus says the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you…” (Jer. 18:11).
“…so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until He have destroyed you from off this good land…” (Josh. 23:15)
“What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God and shall we not receive evil?” (Job 2:10).
“…shall thee be evil in a city, and the Lord has not done it?” (Amos 3:6).
Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera!
(My wife and I spent a weekend in the room next door to Yul Brynner at the Peabody Hotel in Memphis during his last performance of "The King and I." I copied the "Etcetera.." thing from the King's repeated line in the play. Didn't want you to think that was original or anything). Just trying to lighten things up a bit after that long list of human misery and evils.
Teaching that God does not cause and use evil, but only allows it, is nothing less than theological buffoonery.
Do you comprehend what you have read? Do you really? Well if you haven’t gotten it yet, let me make it clear: Things don’t just happen on this earth or in the universe; rather God makes them happen, He causes them to happen, He brings them about.
“…according to the purpose of Him [God] Who works [Greek aiorist tense: past, present, and future] all things after the counsel of His Own will” (Eph. 1:11).
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html
Daddysgirl:
Great find Deb, thanks.
Needed this after my mom's friend's daughter was killed and burnt beyond recognition in a horrific car accident that tragically took 18 other lives the same way.
Good reminder of Who's in control.
thetruth:
Found this..hope it helps you!
Death
« on: April 22, 2007, 03:52:09 PM »
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heb 9/27 says it is appointed unto all men to die once.... does this mean we have an appointed time to die? Is there a certain day and time we will die, or can we lengthen or shorten our lives. A friend was killed in an airplane sometime back .... his wife said ... "I guess it was just his time to die", she stated that God know he would be in this airplane even while he was in ;his mothers womb. I doubt not that God knew, because he in fact God.... but are there variables involved or is our life staged?
Dear Herman:
No, Heb. 9:27 does not prove that there is an appointed time to die, but there are many others Scriptures which do. You need to read the material on our site. I cover hundreds of subjects that people write me about daily, which are already answered on our site. This is a section from my Lake of Fire series on "Free Will," which is one of the most important papers I have ever written:
TIS TRUE: OUR DAYS ARE NUMBERED
Continuing in Ecc. 3:2:
"A time [an 'APPOINTED time'] to be born, and a time [an 'APPOINTED time] to die..."
The whole point of Ecclesiastes chapter three is not that people are born and die, or that people plant and harvest, or that people war and make peace, or that people weep and laugh, but rather that there is "an APPOINTED TIME" for all these things to happen—an appointed time appointed BY GOD.
This is not a new idea, or a new revelation. This truth has been preserved in chapter three of Ecclesiastes for a couple of thousand years. But how many Christians believe it?
Job understood under inspiration of God's Spirit that:
"...the Lord gave and the Lord has taken away..." (Job
1:21). Contrary to a letter I received from Dr. Frederick Price, who said that this verse in Job "is Scripture all right, but it just isn't true." Well far be it from me to argue the validity of the Scriptures with a carnal mind, but nonetheless, this verse of Scripture is true. It is always God Who gives and God Who takes away, even though He uses other agents such as Satan to carry out and accomplish His perfect and flawless will.
God gives life and God takes life away. Most Christians would concede that human birth is indeed a miracle. But how many would concede that even death is a miracle? But it is. Birth and death are not things that "just happen" anymore than anything in the whole universe "just happens." God is the cause for everything:
"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of His Own will" (Eph. 1:11).
"For OF HIM, and THROUGH HIM, and TO HIM, are ALL THINGS..." (Rom. 11:36).
Is there any real difference in saying that God "gives life" or that God "causes a baby to be born?" Is there any real difference in saying that God "takes away life" or that God "causes us to die?" When it comes to death, we prefer euphemisms. We don't like to hear that "our Mother is DEAD!" We prefer to say that "Mother passed away." We don't want to be so honest or brutal as to say "God KILLED my son" but rather "God took my son." But the use of mellower-sounding euphemisms does not negate the fact that God appointed a time for us to be BORN, and He also has appointed a time when we must DIE
octoberose:
Wow, you all are phenomenal. Now, please pray I can rely this with the same power and not water down the Word of God. It's going to take me some time to throughly read it all. I'll carry notes with me!
I wrestle with Luke 13:34 where Jesus says he longs to gather Jerusalem as a mother hen, but they were not willing. And then there's Cain and God's pleading (for lack of a better word) with him and Cain goes on to kill his brother. How to look at those scriptures in the light of all the others you've shown here?
I heard Ray say that we don't accuse God of sin, that is Not what He does and that's not what we're saying here. But he does use evil (ra) for our benefit.
Along with this I feel that I have so much reading behind me but if I cannot articulate it than it only benefits me. I really am going to have to write it down and carry it with me. I feel that I've received a 'degree' in the past two years! I'm not overwhelmed, but I'm certainly 'whelmed'.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
Go to full version