How to explain God's role in tradgedy

[octoberose]

I'm having a discussion with someone and I know this is something they want to talk about. We know God is Sovereign but I was looking on Bibletruths to see what Ray says specifically about those who are the victims of violence or violent accidents. There's a lot I think I know, but in trying to find certain scripture I'm not sure I'm on solid ground. Can any of you help me with this- either both scripture and Ray's understanding of scripture on this subject? Thank-you.

[Deborah-Leigh]

NOW A FEW BIBLICAL EXAMPLES OF WHAT GOD CAUSES:

EARTHQUAKES :

The Christmas tsunami was caused by an under water earthquake. Pat Robertson says this earthquake was not from the Lord.   Earthquakes are mentioned in 17 verses of Scripture, and everyone one of them is FROM THE LORD:

"You shall be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake..." (Isa. 29:6).

"And, behold, there was a great earthquake for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven..."  (Matt. 28:2). Etcetera,

After each category of evil that I will Scripturally prove comes from God, we need to ask ourselves, "Does God 'allow' all of these things, or does God create, cause, and bring these evils upon humanity?"   God does not "allow" earthquakes, but rather He causes and brings earthquakes. I will give a second witness to each of these categories, although with some of these evils, there are hundreds of Scriptural examples.

FLOODS :

"And with the blast of Thy [God's] nostrils the waters were gathered together [Heb: 'piled up'], the floods stood upright as an heap [Heb: 'mound, a wave' as in the tsunami quake which caused a huge wave!], and the depths [Heb: 'an abyss (as a surging mass of water), especially the deep (the main sea or the subterranean water-supply), Strong's Hebrew Dictionary] were congealed in the heart of the sea"  (Exodus 15:.

Sounds pretty much like what God did in the Indian Ocean to destroy the coastal regions of Indonesia, doesn't it? Theologians refuse to believe that God would purposefully CAUSE the Christmas tsunami:

"And, Behold! I [GOD] even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, where in is the breath of life, from under heaven; and everything that is in the earth shall die"  (Gen. 6:17).

Does Mr. Robertson believe that this too was just a "subduction of one of the tectonic plates in the ocean?" Was it really just "a natural release of heat in the atmosphere?" Or was it a work of God to "...destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth..."? (Gen. 6:7).

PLAGUES AND DISEASE :

"Moreover He will bring upon you all the diseases of Egypt, which you were afraid of and they shall cleave unto you. Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of the law, them will the Lord bring upon you, until you be destroyed"  (Deut. 28:60-61)

"The LORD shall smite you with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue you until you perish"  (Deut. 28:22).

POVERTY :

"The LORD makes poor..."  (I Sam. 2:7).

"The rich and poor meet together: the Lord is the maker of all"  (Prov. 22:2).

FAMINE :

"Moreover He [God] called for a famine upon the land: He broke the whole staff of bread" (Psalm 105:16).

"And I [God] will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from the land..."  (Jer. 24:10).

AFFLICTIONS :

"...the Lord has testified against me, and the Almighty has afflicted [Heb: 'to make good for nothing'] me"  (Ruth 1:21).

"And the Lord rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them [Heb: 'hurt and weakened']"  (II Kings 17:20).

THE SWORD :

"I [God] will consume them by the sword..."  (Jer. 14:12).

"I [God] will scatter them also among the heathen, whom neither they nor their father have known: and I will send a sword after them, till I have consumed them"  (Jer. 9:16).

WAR :

"The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is His name"  (Ex. 15:3).

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse, and He that sat upon Him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he does judge and make war"  (Rev. 19:11).

DESTRUCTION :

"Howl! Ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty"  (Isa. 13:6).

"Alas for the day! For the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come" (Joel 1:15).

"PESTILENCE:

"And I will smite the inhabitants of this city, both man and beast: they shall DIE of a great pestilence"  (Jer. 21:6).

"If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people..." (II Chron. 7:13).

HAIL :

"Behold, tomorrow about this time I will CAUSE it to rain a very grievous hail, such as has not been in Egypt since the foundation thereof even until now"  (Ex. 9:18).

"I smote you with blasting and with mildew and with hail in all the labors of your hands, yet ye turned not to me, saith the Lord"  (Haggai 2:17).

ICE, COLD AND FROST :

"He casts forth His ice like morsels: who can stand before His cold?" (Psalm 147:17).

"He DESTROYED their vines with hail, and their sycamore trees with frost"  (Psalm 78:47).

KILLING :

"And My wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless"  (Ex. 22:24).

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven... a time to kill..."  (Ecc. 3:1 & 3).

SLAUGHTER :

"And the Lord discomfited them before Israel; and slew them with a great slaughter..." (Joshua 10:10).

"For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He has utterly destroyed them, he has delivered them to the slaughter"  ( Isa. 34:2).

CALAMITY :

"I will scatter them as with an east wind before the enemy; I will show them the back, and not the face, in the day of their calamity" (Jer. 18:17).

"...and I will bring their calamity from all sides thereof, says the Lord" (Jer. 49:32).

WIND :

"You break the ships of Tarshish with an east wind..."  (Psalm 48:7).

"Thus says the Lord; Behold, I will raise up against Babylon... a destroying wind" (Jer. 51:1).

GRIEF :

"You did say, Woe is me now! For the Lord has added grief to my sorrow; I fainted in my sighing, and I find no rest" (Jer. 45:3).

"But though He [God] cause grief, yet will He have compassion according to the multitude of His mercies"  (Lam. 3:32).

FIRE :

"Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven"  (Gen. 19:24).

"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them"  (Rev. 20:9).

FOREST FIRES :

"...I will kindle a fire in the forest thereof, and it shall devour all things round about it"  (Jer. 21:14).

"And say to the forest... I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee..."  (Ezek. 20:47).

WILD BEASTS :

"I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate"  (Lev. 26:22).

"They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust" (Deut. 32:24).

EVIL :

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil" (Isa. 45:7).

"And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow... the tree of the knowledge of good and evil"  (Gen. 2:9).

"It is an experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it"  (Ecc. 1:13, Concordant Literal Old Testament).

"Out of the mouth of the most High proceeds not evil and good?"  (Lam. 3:38).

"I will raise up evil against you out of your own house..."  (II Sam. 12:11).

"...I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction"  (Jer. 4:6).

"...Hear, O earth; behold, I will bring evil upon this people..." (Jer. 6:19).

"...Thus says the Lord; Behold, I frame evil against you..."  (Jer. 18:11).

"...so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until He have destroyed you from off this good land..."  (Josh. 23:15)

"What? Shall we receive good at the hand of God and shall we not receive evil?"  (Job 2:10).

"...shall thee be evil in a city, and the Lord has not done it?"  (Amos 3:6).

Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera!

(My wife and I spent a weekend in the room next door to Yul Brynner at the Peabody Hotel in Memphis during his last performance of "The King and I." I copied the "Etcetera.." thing from the King's repeated line in the play. Didn't want you to think that was original or anything). Just trying to lighten things up a bit after that long list of human misery and evils.

Teaching that God does not cause and use evil, but only allows it, is nothing less than theological buffoonery.

Do you comprehend what you have read? Do you really? Well if you haven't gotten it yet, let me make it clear: Things don't just happen on this earth or in the universe; rather God makes them happen, He causes them to happen, He brings them about.

"...according to the purpose of Him [God] Who works [Greek aiorist tense: past, present, and future] all things after the counsel of His Own will" (Eph. 1:11).

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html

[Daddysgirl]

Great find Deb, thanks.

Needed this after my mom's friend's daughter was killed and burnt beyond recognition in a horrific car accident that tragically took 18 other lives the same way.

Good reminder of Who's in control.

[thetruth]

Found this..hope it helps you!




Death

« on: April 22, 2007, 03:52:09 PM »



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Heb 9/27 says it is appointed unto all men  to die once.... does this mean we have an appointed time to die? Is there a certain day and time we will  die, or can we lengthen or shorten our lives. A friend was killed in an airplane sometime back .... his wife said ... "I guess it was just his time to die", she stated that God know he would be in this airplane even while he was in ;his mothers womb. I doubt not that God knew, because he in fact God.... but are there variables involved or is our life staged?


Dear Herman:
No, Heb. 9:27 does not prove that there is an appointed time to die, but there are many others Scriptures which do. You need to read the material on our site. I cover hundreds of subjects that people write me about daily, which are already answered on our site. This is a section from my Lake of Fire series on "Free Will," which is one of the most important papers I have ever written:


    TIS TRUE: OUR DAYS ARE NUMBERED

    Continuing in Ecc. 3:2:

        "A time [an 'APPOINTED time'] to be born, and a time [an 'APPOINTED time] to die..."

    The whole point of Ecclesiastes chapter three is not that people are born and die, or that people plant and harvest, or that people war and make peace, or that people weep and laugh, but rather that there is "an APPOINTED TIME" for all these things to happen—an appointed time appointed BY GOD.

    This is not a new idea, or a new revelation. This truth has been preserved in chapter three of Ecclesiastes for a couple of thousand years. But how many Christians believe it?

    Job understood under inspiration of God's Spirit that:

        "...the Lord gave and the Lord has taken away..." (Job

    1:21). Contrary to a letter I received from Dr. Frederick Price, who said that this verse in Job "is Scripture all right, but it just isn't true." Well far be it from me to argue the validity of the Scriptures with a carnal mind, but nonetheless, this verse of Scripture is true. It is always God Who gives and God Who takes away, even though He uses other agents such as Satan to carry out and accomplish His perfect and flawless will.

    God gives life and God takes life away. Most Christians would concede that human birth is indeed a miracle. But how many would concede that even death is a miracle? But it is. Birth and death are not things that "just happen" anymore than anything in the whole universe "just happens." God is the cause for everything:

        "In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of His Own will" (Eph. 1:11).

        "For OF HIM, and THROUGH HIM, and TO HIM, are ALL THINGS..." (Rom. 11:36).

    Is there any real difference in saying that God "gives life" or that God "causes a baby to be born?" Is there any real difference in saying that God "takes away life" or that God "causes us to die?" When it comes to death, we prefer euphemisms. We don't like to hear that "our Mother is DEAD!" We prefer to say that "Mother passed away." We don't want to be so honest or brutal as to say "God KILLED my son" but rather "God took my son." But the use of mellower-sounding euphemisms does not negate the fact that God appointed a time for us to be BORN, and He also has appointed a time when we must DIE

[octoberose]

Wow, you all are phenomenal. Now, please pray I can rely this with the same power and not water down the Word of God. It's going to take me some time to throughly read it all. I'll carry notes with me!
I wrestle with Luke 13:34 where Jesus says he longs to gather Jerusalem as a mother hen, but they were not willing. And then there's Cain and God's pleading (for lack of a better word) with him and Cain goes on to kill his brother. How to look at those scriptures in the light of all the others you've shown here?
I heard Ray say that we don't accuse God of sin, that is Not what He does and that's not what we're saying here. But he does use evil (ra) for our benefit.
Along with this I feel that I have so much reading behind me but if I cannot articulate it than it only benefits me. I really am going to have to write it down and carry it with me. I feel that I've received a 'degree' in the past two years! I'm not overwhelmed, but I'm certainly 'whelmed'.

[octoberose]

Whoops, those caps are larger than I intended!

[thetruth]

Hello again,
One thing that helps me is knowing if it wasnt for Good AND Evil I could never be transformed to the image of Christ.
Hebrews:5:8 tough He was a Son,yet He learned obeidence by the things which He suffered.
Also another email answered by Ray may helpYyou further?
DEAR,RAY                                                                                                                           
                 I respect your view of the Bible,however i can not help but wonder when you say GOD knew when he made man and satan he already knew they would fail,and man would suffer sickness,pain,hardship,etc. WHEN THE BIBLE SAY GOD IS LOVE.THANKS RB.


Dear RB:
How does the fact that God is love contradict the fact that God knew exactly what Adam and Satan would do beginning in the garden?  Okay, let's have it your way and believe that God DID NOT know that His creation, Adam, would sin. And that He DID NOT know that things would get so messy as they have.  And that He DID NOT know that such a thing as sickness, pain, and hardship would ever come on  the scene.  And that God DID NOT "know the beginning from the end" (Isa. 46:10), and that He LIED when He stated that He does know. . And that God therefore LIED when He tells us that He has the ability to "count things that ARE NOT, as though they ARE" (Rom. 4:17). And that He LIED when we are told in Scripture that "God cannot lie" (Titus 1:2).

Does THAT unscriptural nonsense and approach make you feel better about God and the present affairs of mankind?

How is it that God knew so many detailed facts regarding the need for grace to save mankind from his sins "BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" if God did not know, and did not plan and prepare for these things,  (I Cor. 2:7;  Eph. 1:4;  II Tim. 1:9;  I Pet. 1:20)?

God be with you,

[Gina]

Wow, you all are phenomenal. Now, please pray I can rely this with the same power and not water down the Word of God. It's going to take me some time to throughly read it all. I'll carry notes with me!
I wrestle with Luke 13:34 where Jesus says he longs to gather Jerusalem as a mother hen, but they were not willing. ...

Hi, Octoberbose

Would it help if I told you that I was highly offended about a year or more ago at what Jesus is saying in this Parable of the Ten Minas in Luke 19?

Luke 19:27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Below, is that parable in its entirety to put it in its proper perspective, and when we read it, it becomes abundantly clear that it is referring to the many called and few chosen--a tragedy to those without eyes to see. 

The Parable of the Ten Minas

Luke 27 11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12 He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.a 'Put this money to work,' he said, 'until I come back.'

14 "But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, 'We don't want this man to be our king.'

15 "He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

16 "The first one came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned ten more.'

17 "'Well done, my good servant!' his master replied. 'Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.'

18 "The second came and said, 'Sir, your mina has earned five more.'

19 "His master answered, 'You take charge of five cities.'

20"Then another servant came and said, 'Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.'

22 "His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'

24 "Then he said to those standing by, 'Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.'

25 "'Sir,' they said, 'he already has ten!'

26"He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.'"

But we don't stop there, like the many called who have not been given eyes to see.  We who have been given eyes to see are now able to go below (or above, if you like) the surface meaning into the deep things of God to see and most importantly believe this:  (1 Cor. 15:28) And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

I hope this helps you just as much as the person with whom you are discussing the subject.  Perhaps the spirit of God will be merciful to that person as you converse and miraculously open their eyes to grandeur that lies beyond -- and accept it.

Gina

[Gina]

p.s.  I want to add that many times, God has prohibited me from being able to explain these things in a way others (who question the truths) will understand.  And that points to the fact, God is not choosing everyone in this lifetime.  So, please don't get discouraged if at first they don't understand after all the hours of researching and studying you've done.  I think of Ray.  How many has he been able to convince or convert?  Not many, not many. 

And people would rather see a sermon than hear one any day.  I work at being that sermon every day and sometimes I fail, but Love never fails.

All the best to both of you.

[Extol]

Hello again,
One thing that helps me is knowing if it wasnt for Good AND Evil I could never be transformed to the image of Christ.
Hebrews:5:8 tough He was a Son,yet He learned obeidence by the things which He suffered.
Also another email answered by Ray may helpYyou further?
DEAR,RAY                                                                                                                           
                 I respect your view of the Bible,however i can not help but wonder when you say GOD knew when he made man and satan he already knew they would fail,and man would suffer sickness,pain,hardship,etc. WHEN THE BIBLE SAY GOD IS LOVE.THANKS RB.


Dear RB:
How does the fact that God is love contradict the fact that God knew exactly what Adam and Satan would do beginning in the garden?  Okay, let's have it your way and believe that God DID NOT know that His creation, Adam, would sin. And that He DID NOT know that things would get so messy as they have.  And that He DID NOT know that such a thing as sickness, pain, and hardship would ever come on  the scene.  And that God DID NOT "know the beginning from the end" (Isa. 46:10), and that He LIED when He stated that He does know. . And that God therefore LIED when He tells us that He has the ability to "count things that ARE NOT, as though they ARE" (Rom. 4:17). And that He LIED when we are told in Scripture that "God cannot lie" (Titus 1:2).

Does THAT unscriptural nonsense and approach make you feel better about God and the present affairs of mankind?

How is it that God knew so many detailed facts regarding the need for grace to save mankind from his sins "BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD" if God did not know, and did not plan and prepare for these things,  (I Cor. 2:7;  Eph. 1:4;  II Tim. 1:9;  I Pet. 1:20)?

God be with you,

Great e-mail thetruth, thanks for finding that! Though for years I've believed in God's sovereignty, I never thought of it this way...that the alternative--God not knowing what's going on--is a lot more scary than the belief that God creates evil. Such wisdom we get from Ray!

[Kat]

Hi Octoberose,

I wrestle with Luke 13:34 where Jesus says he longs to gather Jerusalem as a mother hen, but they were not willing. And then there's Cain and God's pleading (for lack of a better word) with him and Cain goes on to kill his brother. How to look at those scriptures in the light of all the others you've shown here?
I heard Ray say that we don't accuse God of sin, that is Not what He does and that's not what we're saying here. But he does use evil (ra) for our benefit.

I will give you my view and maybe it will help a bit. We know that God is sovereign and that He not only knows, but ultimately causes everything, even evil, that happens. But we can be certain that He has no pleasure in His heart of the wickedness that we willingly volunteer to do and the evils that happens. So as there is the necessary evils in this world for now, as God's plan does require it, but God will continually states what is in His heart for what will eventually come to be. God will always state what is righteous and what is good, even when He intends that we go against His will for now. One day He will gather up all of Jerusalem in His arms and one day He will wipe away all tears.

Here is an excerpt from 'Twelve Truths to Understanding His Word.'

http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm --------------------------------------------------

God's plan and purpose for humanity consists of many, many things which are not after God's own heart, but that are, nonetheless, absolutely essential for the completion of His plan:

"Say unto them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" (Ezek. 33:11).

This is God's HEART speaking in this verse. But in the MIND of God, the death of the wicked was absolutely necessary, and a prophesied fact that could not be avoided:

"For I will lay the land most desolate, and the pomp of her strength shall cease, and the mountains of Israel shall be desolate, that none shall pass through" (Ver. 28).

This is but another of countless examples in Scripture that show God's mind and His heart. God takes no pleasure or delight in His heart over the horrible things that continually happen to humanity, but nonetheless, these things are absolutely essential to the fulfillment of the plan that God has devised in His mind.

It is absolute blasphemy to think or teach that God is the Creator of all that is, but then takes zero responsibility for all the evils of that creation—ALL is of God.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is an email.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2885.0.html --------

    People go against God's will ALL DAY LONG. That's what most

    peoples' lives consist of--going against God's will.  It is God's purpose, plan, and

    intentions that absolutely no one has ever or ever will go against.  Listen:  It is

    God's purpose and plan that people GO AGAINST HIS WILL. He purposes for

    people to go against His will. It is God's will that we all become PERFECT as He

    is perfect, but it is in His sovereign plan that we all live very imperfect lives before

    God begins to change us into perfecion.

    God be with you,

    Ray

[octoberose]

Thank you all so much- that helps me sort through things.
And yes, I've had that experience where I seem prohibited- good word-from expressing the Truth. I wonder, Kat, if you ever feel that way too since you always seem to have a timely Word?

[Kat]

Octoberose funny you should ask. Just last night I was on the phone with my sister... I'm not around her much, but have spoken a few things to her in the past and I got the deer in the headlight look, she could not begin to grasp what I was saying. So last night on the phone with her the topic of death came up and I thought real hard trying to think of something to say that would help her understanding, and I could not really come up with anything that could disrupt her Baptist beliefs. So I do think that sometimes we are prohibited, as we realize we should not cast our pearls before the blind/swine.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[octoberose]

That is something-thank you for sharing it. Perhaps in time God will open her eyes-bless her heart, she has no idea what a treasure she has in her own family. 

[dogcombat]

Tis true OR,

We find in Daniel 4 (KJV)

29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.

30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?

31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws.

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.

37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.[/b]


We can see how God was the one who CAUSED Nebuhanezzar's fall from ruling Babylon.  And God RESTORED him there.  None can stop God's hand nor question his ultimate plan.  Well, we ALL question it, but God is NOT accountable to us.  Perhaps a second read of "Why Does God Love You" might bring you a little more grace to know that God is in control.  If it be His will, you'll "understand it better by and by".

God be with you
Ches

[marrcus]

Was the crucifixion a good or bad thing? Was it a necessary thing?

[Kat]

Hi marrcus,

Here is a section from the conference 'Who and What Is Jesus & Who Is His Father?' This should help with your question.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html -----------

Did Jesus Christ have to do this? NO. 
Did the Father have to take Christ to the cross? NO. 

But you say, without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin and we all sin. HE made the rules! He didn't have to make that rule, that His Son had to die. But why did He make those dumb rules?  He makes the rules, right? Here is where I see that, let's see if we agree, if we are all of the same spirit.
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Now you can say whatever You want, you might not approve of what God is doing or how He's doing it. I mean I have thought already, as most of you will, sometime in your life, if you ever think deeply about these things. Surely this could have been done in a better way. But that's why God says, My ways are not your ways, I don't think like you and you don't think like Me and not by just a little bit.

Isa 55:9  "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

That's how far apart our thinking is. But I want to bring this together. The way He's doing this is you've got to go through a living hell on this earth. It's the only way, it's God's way.
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He sent Jesus Christ to go through the same stuff we go through and that's why I wanted to bring these out today. Because most of you never knew that, Jesus Christ lived a pretty painful life. Paul lived a pretty painful life, he said I learned to be content in all things. God put His Son through what we have to go through, because He loves us! He didn't have to.

Jesus Christ did something between His creation and the creation of the earth. He did something to acquire God's glory, something. Because He had it and He didn't get it for nothing.
 
God wants creatures, He wants children, He wants sons and daughters. He has a desire to have something like Himself. But for us to be like Him, we have to go through some pretty tough stuff. So He sent His Son as an example, as how you can go through it and never get angry or upset with God. To never turn against your fellowman, because of what you have to go through. He lived a perfect life, of the perfect man, sick and diseased, in pain and He lived it perfectly. But God was living in Him, the Father was going through it just as much as He was, you see. 

Christ had to die, it said He had to die for our sins. That's true, that's the scripture, Christ died for our sin. But then we have a scripture here that doesn't mention sin.

John 3:16  "For God so(thus) loved the world,"

Thus or in the manner, a lot of people think it's saying He loved us so much, but that is not what this is saying. What this is saying is God loved us, in this way. This is the manner and way in which He loved us. In this way He loved the world.

"...that He gave His only begotten Son,"

He died, they killed Him on the cross, He died.

"...that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."

Of course the Bible is written so man doesn't understand it. That's why some of these things are put in there, "that who-so-ever believes." God knows and now we know, everybody is going to believe. So the 'who-so-ever' is going to be everybody. 

But He gave His Son, now here's the point I want to make and that is this, why did Christ have to die? Why? Why did the Father sacrifice His Son? Why did He have to do that? HE DIDN'T HAVE TO DO THAT! He didn't have to do anything, HE'S GOD! Why DID He? Because whether you recognize it now or later in life or those in the resurrection to judgment or for the rest of eternity, we are going to know it for sure. That God died for us for no other reason than to show us that HE LOVES US! He did not have to die. He said, I will do it to show them.  How can I show them that what I am putting them through has real value? What can I do? I can promise them the world, I can give them mansions and youth and joyful life. I have all that to give, but they will say, you are only giving out of your abundance, of what you have. What can I really do, that you will know that I really love you? God said, I will DIE!
 
But God can't die, He's eternal, He has immortality, deathlessness. If you have immortality you can't die. So He made a Son. He made Him great. To show us how great He was, He said, let Me show you what I can do when I make a Son. Create the universe first, now become a man, and now die. 
Then they will know We love them. 
Then they will know.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat