questions. weighing heavily on my heart

lilitalienboi16 · January 22, 2012, 06:31:51 PM

Quote from: Revilonivek on January 22, 2012, 02:30:14 PM
ez2u-

I take this with a heavy heart.. It bothers me greatly- others say to look at the old testament as allegories, but the point is, if it was true, it's hard to look at it as allegories. But to be frank, the old testament can teach us to move away from the carnal lifestyle, because of the destructive living they led.. making us want to be set apart... but still.. ordering women, children, pregnant women, babies, and so on to be killed just because they are of a different ethnic group and has their own cultures. kills anyone who serves another religion other than His own..Seems very intolerant and unforgiving, and had no mercy. Unless they were justifying their actions believing that God approves it? we see that all the time even now.. 9/11, Salem, Inquisition, and so on?

One thought- since we know that people existed before Adam and Eve on earth but maybe the Jewish genealogy people were the ones God created with special attention in Genesis and the rest of ethnic groups were already there and He holds his Jewish people to a higher standard and is intolerant about inbreeding in the old testament with other ethnic groups? maybe?

I have no idea... Then all the sudden, the same God, (Jesus) in the new testament tells us to be tolerant of other people and turn the other cheek and forgive..love our enemies and so on.. It's so confusing..

From observing other religions that exist.. all religions perceive their own religion as the correct one and others and anyone outside that view are infidels. if Jesus is the Yahweh God of the old testament.. He definitely taught differently now than back in the old testament. That bothers me..

I don't know...

Denise

Man existing outside the garden before adam an eve is, to my understanding, not to be taken as to mean any intelligent form of man, capable of knowing God, of agriculture, of reading and writting etc.. the man outside the garden, that cain came to know his wife from, was the now extinct neadrethals and other forms of humans which lead to, according to science, us homosapians. There is evidence that not only did we interbreed with these lesser "evolved" forms of humans but that we infact lead to their extinction.

In otherwords, i don't think these humans outside the garden were capable of culture as we know it etc.

Lastly, Ray has spoken about how some things are written from the relative perspective or the perspective of man, while others are written from the absolute perspective (God's perspective.) What if those parts we find so hard to understand in the old testament are actually written from the eyes of man and in so attempting to justify such horrendous and horrific events perpetrated by those in the old testament which seem to be in almost complete opposition to the Jesus we know of the new testament. Make sense?

It's always easier to say, God told us to do it and to get others to follow you then to own up to your own actions and say their was no justification for what was committed other then pure carnal madness.

I could be rambling.. but it's a thought. Ray's little portion on "Relative vs Absolute" makes me wonder about whether that applies to some of these events described in the OT and whether it was really "GOD" who commanded these things to be done or whether it was man just trying to justify his insatious carnal appetite.

Kat · January 22, 2012, 08:36:25 PM

It is a little hard for me to understand how people can have such a hard time with God ordering the Amalekite nation to be destroyed when they repeatedly attacked (usually the weak in cruelty and cowardice), the Israelites as they came up from Egypt to enter into their Promised Land. Remember the counterattackon the Amalekites led by Joshua, the battle which Israel won because Aaron and Hur helped Moses hold up his rod when his arms grew tired? (From the Jewish Encyclopedia) "Amalek appears elsewhere always as an insignificant robber nation." This shows that God does not deal lightly with wicked people or nation. Yet people continue to show their dismay at God for ordering this.

What about when God sent down fire on the city of Sodom and all the inhabitants died? Or when the earth opened up and swallowed Korah all the men with him and their households? I don't hear people questioning God's actions there.

There have been wars through all of recorded history, this is the age we live in, part of the experience of evil. So when the Scriptures were being written and as with the Israelites we see how God was involved in their lives in every sorts of situations, including wars.

Do we think that God is any less involved in the situations that have happened throughout all of history? Certainly there are things that we disagree with in our human reasoning, but when I do not understand what God is doing I trust that He knows better than I. Any way just stateing my thoughts on this.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

Deborah-Leigh · January 22, 2012, 11:46:53 PM

Quote from: John from Kentucky on January 22, 2012, 11:29:29 PM

The above are just a few things weighing heavily on my heart.

JFK....that..."things weighing heavily on my heart" is just a mega Spirit of the Lord giving you a great BIG HUG.

Denise

Death is overcome by God. For us too, death is overcome by the Spirit of God. Death shall loose it's sting. There is no other way.

Arc

DougE6 · January 23, 2012, 02:19:14 AM

I think John from Kentucky brought up some wise historical background and some good commentary on Gods use of "evil" Notice I put evil in quotation marks, because as JFK mentioned, God does not need anyone to defend His actions, because everything He does is done not only out of justice and fairness but our of love. We, in our extreme nearsightedness, might not see or understand this, until we put on the glasses of faith. Then we can see clearly.

Now their is a whole lot of accusations floating around cyberspace on how "evil" God is not only because of the stories in the Old Testament of slaughter but what about modern life? DO we really need to go any further than our own century to see the greatest evils that mankind can do to one another? How high has the level of suffering been, for so many, in so many atrocities?

Clearly, maybe, to see that God ordered such killings, the direct connection between the suffering and God seems to up close and personal than when we look at Mao or Stalin or child molestors, who have no such direct connection, as a direct command that we can see; though they are doing what God has long ago written in the book of their lives what shall be done.

Is God evil for writing the book of their lives in that way, or in ordering the slaughter of "innocents"? Of course not. First and the least reason, is that no one is innocent. But far more than this is the overiding truth that is seen so much more clearly with the eyes of faith that GOD IS THE ONLY ONE THAT CAN USE EVIL FOR A GOOD PURPOSE. PERIOD.

None of us has perfect knowledge of every interaction and heart except God. None of us has perfect and loving intentions and motives that are absolutely free from any selfishness whatsoever, except God. And none of us have the ability to overturn any action, including reversing a killing and bringing to life again, except God.

Those attributes of God that I mentioned are WHY we are forbidden to use evil, and for us it is a sin; but for God it is never a sin.

God has much greater plans for mankind than three score and ten, or 2 months in the case of a baby being killed. MUCH GREATER. And this plan that includes suffering and sin and death and all that is written, is the BEST and most LOVING way to make His plans come to fruition. God will never have to give an account in any way to any human being for what He has ordained and caused. And when the final plans are complete, He will be so justified when His masterpiece is revealed that there will be only room for thankfulness, gratefulness, and AWE in what has transpired.

If your heart is troubled by thses things then your faith is low. Your faith in the goodness of God is low. Your faith in His love is low. Your understanding of the wickedness of sin is low. It must hurt to be a sinner!! Death has sting! If there was no sting in death, who would fear it? And, as sinners, we are subject to whatever death God decides we will experience.

But death will not always have a sting. Where is your faith in this scripture?

and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Where indeed...

onelovedread · January 23, 2012, 09:20:04 AM

And it is the grace of God ONLY that will save us. But HOW and WHEN? What does it mean to be "under grace?" Answer:

"For the GRACE of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, TEACHING US [Gk: 'to train, educate, discipline, punish, chasten, instruct, learn, teach'] that, denying ungodliness and worldly lust, we should live soberly [with a sound mind], righteously, and GODLY, in this present world" (Titus 2:11-12).

Gina · January 23, 2012, 10:18:07 AM

Quote from: onelovedread on January 23, 2012, 09:20:04 AM
And it is the grace of God ONLY that will save us. But HOW and WHEN? What does it mean to be "under grace?" Answer:

"For the GRACE of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, TEACHING US [Gk: 'to train, educate, discipline, punish, chasten, instruct, learn, teach'] that, denying ungodliness and worldly lust, we should live soberly [with a sound mind], righteously, and GODLY, in this present world" (Titus 2:11-12).

lol In other words, it'll beat the hell out of us. (Heb 12:6, Rev 3:19)

See, where sin abounds, grace does much more abound. (Rom. 5:20)

Ouch!

Better believe it. lol

When I was a little girl and misbehaved and refused to stop, my nanny Priscilla would go to the kitchen, get a wash cloth and wet it reallll goooood. She'd ring that puppy up and just switch it real lightly on the backside of my leg just so it'd sting real good, no marks or anything. lol. That calmed me right down. haha! I'd be begging her -- No, No! Cilla! Don't, don't! Haha. By the time it was all over, we'd both be laughin. Well, sometimes. lol She "educated" me.

Revilonivek · January 23, 2012, 12:28:57 PM

there will always be evils everywhere, it doesn't matter which race you are, what ethnic group you are, evil is always there..somewhere like for example.. we see the evils with Salem, Inquisition, 9/11 and so on, you get the idea... But they don't necessarily represent the good people or the majority in that ethnic group.

talk about perspective, like the present time, for some Christians, when they see the crazy extreme Muslim terrorist group doing crazy things, doing barbaric things like decapitating heads, because of the things they believe in, like crashing into the NYC towers all because they feel God approves it. and as a consequence, another religions, some Christians, some other religions feels that that terrorist group represent all Muslims when it really isn't true. as a consequence, they take it out on other Muslims that live here in our country. There are good Muslims that doesn't necessarily agree to that view. Now, let's go back to the time to that time, without internet, no phones, no wiki, or anything...

in a person with different religion mindset, they may believe that it is easy to just wipe the whole race just to BE SURE they will never come back? there are plenty of innocent people, like for example, many groups, like BT group doesn't represent the churchanity views, but other religions, like Hindu, and Muslim may still see us as a religion under Christianity and they see the evils that some Christians does, and declare us all people evil... automatically. and declare the whole race under chrsitianity wiped.. becuase they believe and think all Christians are evil..

I'm just saying- just because some does evil, doesn't' necessarily represent all in that ethnic group. you already know any religion are intolerant of ANY religion outside their religion. That applies to all religions. It never ends. Of course I feel for those innocent people involved. My heart goes to them.

did you not know that Israelites are commanded to rape women of other ethnic group and killed in front of children.. pregnant women dashed with the sword.. babies.. young children. and of course men. Their view is to punish them severely... traumatize by doing all of that.. It doesn't matter. Think of the genocide in Africa.

John, Actually Jesus taught us to be tolerant, by telling us to turn the other cheek when they do evil to us... as in putting a stop to all the violence that has been repeated over and over throughout history.. of course Jesus constantly insulted the pharisees with the old testament mindset. they believe in stoning any one who sinned no matter what size of sin, intolerant of every sin committed. He hated that mindset very much. The difference is, he doesn't act out like murdering them or chopping off their hands, feet, ears, tongue, or eyes. He insulted them. That's a big difference. He even defended a woman from being stoned to death because the pharisees feel she sinned and deserved to die. He said for any one who is without sin can stone her, but turns out they had sin and left..

No one is good. No one. I think what Jesus wanted is an end to all religions. all it does throughout history is kill one another. I look forward to the day Jesus comes back because that would mean all peace throughout the earth... and everyone becomes one mentally when it comes to what is righteous. No more murdering, raping, chopping off limbs, no more stealing, no more of that craziness.

Denise

Dave in Tenn · January 23, 2012, 02:32:35 PM

Denise, let me give you one more perspective on 'seeing' the spiritual in this (and other similar) stories. The I'll shut up.

In my religious youth, I read this passage thinking "If I were God, what would I do?" I've also read it in carnal-minded hippy indignation thinking, "If I were an Israeilite, what would I do?"

But God let me live long enough and put me through experiences in His wisdom (which I still can barely fathom, even though I've lived through it) which made me a vessel of dishonor. Now I can read them and see that, spiritually, I am 'of the tribe' being destroyed.

It's foolish to imagine I am God. It's inappropriate and false for ME to imagine most of my past as an 'agent of righteousness'. I'm the one who is guilty of "sacrificing babies to false gods". Not many volunteer to die. In fits and starts, kicking and screaming sometimes (most of the time) it's become OK with me to die. That's 'turning the other cheek' too, isn't it?

God is not finished with my tribe. Even Sodom will rise again.

I can't make you 'get that'. I can just tell you what's in my heart.

Do good.

Revilonivek · January 23, 2012, 09:14:07 PM

Dave,

I think the Jews totally misunderstood the laws God gave them. They saw it as an objective list of do's and don'ts. In fact they added more to the list. Making it harder and harder to keep. When Jesus came, He really blew their minds. He made sure that to keep the law was impossible to keep. Plenty of examples in the old testament-

The bottom line is God is interested in the heart, not the outward. They, in the old testament focused on the outward too much. The point, if they look on the outward, some will succeed, others will not. The old testament were full of those stories. It does show God's love, mercy, forgiveness and so on toward those people who were still on a carnal level of thinking. They were on a objective level of thinking. rather on a subjective or personal level of thinking with God.

I realize now that God did not "sugarcoat" their lives. They were all real people like us, with failures as well as great victories and successes. But through both the failures and successes, God maintained an intimate relationship with them. THAT should give us all hope! Right? I can see that very clearly that God likes to involve Himself in our lives even when we can't live up to the "objective" commands of God's law or our desires for Him.

I know we are fallible and our understanding is incomplete. God's is complete. Imagine how far we've come since the "BRONZE AGE" God desired to have a personal relationship. Look up exodus 20 for one example.. it shows how people were afraid of God. No faith and wanted someone else to lead them or interpret for them instead of having a personal relationship with God like Moses did. They lived during the objective age. Now, look at us, under the subjective age and understanding more and more of God's unconditional love. and after all that we've learned...our understanding is still incomplete. We think we understand that perfect love.. which we don't. not yet anyway..

I think it's more of a heart matter, The Jews thought they were accepted by God just because they followed the "rules or commands." The new testament commandments pretty much summed up to Love God and one another. I think that is subjective because we all get to learn and experience that wonderful love. the true love. and it That was why it was hard for me to look at the old testament. I just realized now. They were objective. Not subjective.

.

Gina · January 24, 2012, 01:51:48 AM

QuoteI realize now that God did not "sugarcoat" their lives. They were all real people like us, with failures as well as great victories and successes. But through both the failures and successes, God maintained an intimate relationship with them. THAT should give us all hope! Right? I can see that very clearly that God likes to involve Himself in our lives even when we can't live up to the "objective" commands of God's law or our desires for Him.

I know we are fallible and our understanding is incomplete. God's is complete. Imagine how far we've come since the "BRONZE AGE" God desired to have a personal relationship. Look up exodus 20 for one example.. it shows how people were afraid of God. No faith and wanted someone else to lead them or interpret for them instead of having a personal relationship with God like Moses did. They lived during the objective age. Now, look at us, under the subjective age and understanding more and more of God's unconditional love. and after all that we've learned...our understanding is still incomplete. We think we understand that perfect love.. which we don't. not yet anyway..

This is so cool.

Extol · January 24, 2012, 09:53:45 AM

Beautiful post, Dave in Tenn. Thanks.

Revilonivek · January 24, 2012, 08:40:19 PM

HI everyone,

Thanks for your answers- I appreciate you all for trying to help me understand. I feel kind of guilty for bringing out my thoughts but it is what is on my heart.. Its frustrating, I appreciate this group- it helps me think things through. I sometimes jump before i think.. I have zillions questions- one of them, deep stuff like for example, if the modern humans is really about 6,000 years..and according to Genesis it takes another 6,000 years to create heavens and earth, to the point of creation of modern humans,(1000 years here, one day up there) that's like 12,000 years total from day 1 of creation to now. Earth has already proven to be much older than that. neandrathals, dinosaurs, artifacts, existed for alot longer than that.. how do we explain all of that? I guess all in due time.

Throughout our conversations about the behaviors of the BRONZE AGE- I just realized- it just clicked- about their way of living- They perceive it as normal behavior.They perceive it as normal. something common, an everyday way of living, and they don't see anything wrong with what they are doing. God only deals with us if we know it is wrong. women were treated as property because they believed that very strongly. Virgins were highly prized, that is what they covet back then. That is why it is so easy to condone a civilization that look at it as normal or typical way of life. I think God has been dealing with my heart in this area.. I think i understand now.

THanks all!

Denise

Gina · January 24, 2012, 10:19:36 PM

It sure sounds like you feel a lot better, Denise. We're all in this together.

Kat · January 24, 2012, 11:12:48 PM

Hi Denise,

QuoteI have zillions questions- one of them, deep stuff like for example, if the modern humans is really about 6,000 years..and according to Genesis it takes another 6,000 years to create heavens and earth, to the point of creation of modern humans,(1000 years here, one day up there) that's like 12,000 years total from day 1 of creation to now. Earth has already proven to be much older than that. neandrathals, dinosaurs, artifacts, existed for alot longer than that.. how do we explain all of that?

Revilonivek · January 25, 2012, 08:53:47 AM

Thank you Kat.

I'll check them out.

I can't listen to the audio part since I have profound hearing loss.

but I will check out the transcripts though.

Denise

Kat · January 25, 2012, 09:03:38 AM

Sorry about that Denise, forgot about your not being able to hear the audios. Glad the transcripts are there

mercy, peace and love
Kat

santgem · March 27, 2012, 04:28:15 AM

My answer in this question is also a question:
What is the difference between killing in the Old Testament and killing the Creator in the New Testament? Is there a difference?

For question No.1.... We know very much that all the Father has was given to Jesus and, all that Jesus has was from the Father even the Name Jesus is from the Father. Is this mean that The Father dines in Jesus and Jesus Dines in the Father? We know that in the beginning the voice is with the Father and this voice dwells in us. Therefore in that case when people see Jesus in His glory they will actually see the Father in Jesus. Remember when that disciple stoned to death saw Jesus standing at the Right hand of the Father, or was it the Father actually dines at left portion of the body of Christ? maybe my perception is wrong but there is a possibility. Forgive me for giving my opinion but that is always the things that comes out in my mind whenever i saw writings that describe Jesus and His Father.
sorry for my english, i am not well verse in English.

sarahfromcolorado · March 27, 2012, 11:30:41 PM

Hey Denise,

I don't think any of us can say WHY God does things like he does. Or that any of us should think that He should have done it a way that is easier for us to understand with our limited knowledge. We just have to come to the point that we believe that his judgments are righteous whether we ever understand them or not. Try to think about how the end for all those babies, women and children is LIFE and peace. No one has ever suffered or died in vain. Every one suffers but our suffering isn't worth comparing with the glory that will revealed in us.

Maybe God will show you the answers to your questions some day and then you can share it with us.

questions. weighing heavily on my heart

lilitalienboi16

Kat

Deborah-Leigh

DougE6

onelovedread

Gina

Revilonivek

Dave in Tenn

Revilonivek

Gina

Extol

Revilonivek

Gina

Kat

Revilonivek

Kat

santgem

sarahfromcolorado