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Author Topic: The knowledge of good and evil  (Read 2566 times)

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mavis92379

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The knowledge of good and evil
« on: January 17, 2012, 01:00:00 PM »

Im trying to understand better just what this verse is saying.

Gen 2:9  And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Before Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil what type of knowledge did they have ? Adam had no understanding of anything that was good and evil or was it all relative to his knowledge of his sinful condition ? It seems that his spiritual condition prior to eating of the tree could in fact have been worse than his condition after. Before he had eaten he had no shame of his nakedness after he eats it appears he had begun to see his need to cover himself.

Heb 5:14  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

It seems as if the knowledge in this tree is ONLY in reference to Adams nakedness. The law not to eat was just the strength to have Adams senses excercised to discern his condition.

1Co 15:56  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

1Co 15:56  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: The knowledge of good and evil
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2012, 04:13:51 PM »



Excellent fielding JFK!  8)

I guess then, mavis92379...you are spot on  :) to say, quote :

  It seems that his spiritual condition prior to eating of the tree could in fact have been worse than his condition after

Gen 3:22  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:....

Arc
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mavis92379

  • Guest
Re: The knowledge of good and evil
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2012, 06:49:58 PM »

It was really eye opening when I first learned this truth that Adam was indeed going to die before he sinned. I am know looking at the verses in chapter 3 where God pronounces curses on the serpent, women and man.  Just what is this serpent speaking with the women ? I know it is satan the devil but it what way was he speaking with the women ? By literally possessing a snake that spoke with her ? Was it perhaps another person ? Ray has alluded that perhaps Adam and Eve were not the only people there and God asking , WHO told you you were naked seems to imply SOMEONE ELSE besides them was there. Im really have just been perplexed about how much there is in these chapters.

God says to the serpent BECAUSE YOU HAVE DONE THIS CURSED ARE YOU !!! Well what was he before he did this ?

The women He says - Increased pains in childbirth, desire is towards your husband and he will rule over you. What was it like before this ? Was Eve going to give birth to children without pain ?

The concept is hard to follow after learning that there was death before the transgression.

Where there really no thorn bushes before God pronounced this curse on the ground  ? Im not following this at all.
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: The knowledge of good and evil
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2012, 10:35:02 AM »

Hi mavis,

Quote
  Just what is this serpent speaking with the women ? I know it is satan the devil but it what way was he speaking with the women ? By literally possessing a snake that spoke with her ? Was it perhaps another person ? Ray has alluded that perhaps Adam and Eve were not the only people there and God asking , WHO told you you were naked seems to imply SOMEONE ELSE besides them was there. Im really have just been perplexed about how much there is in these chapters.

God says to the serpent BECAUSE YOU HAVE DONE THIS CURSED ARE YOU !!! Well what was he before he did this ?


Here are a couple of places where Ray speaks about Satan.

http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html --------------------------------

WHENCE SATAN THE DEVIL?

According to Christendom, Satan created himself. He was supposedly a perfect archangel and then CHANGED HIMSELF INTO A DEVIL. Is this Scripturally true? Who created Satan?

You are of your FATHER the DEVIL [the GREAT DRAGON, OLD SERPENT, the DEVIL, and SATAN {Hebrew for Adversary -- I Pet. 5:8} Rev. 12:9], and the lusts of your father ye will do... He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth [from the beginning], because there is no truth in him [from the beginning]. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar [from the beginning], and the father [the beginner] of it" (John 8:44).

"Now the SERPENT was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD GOD had MADE..." (Gen. 3:1) God "made" this serpent which TALKED with Eve as an articulate, intelligent creature. Satan did not possess this serpent of the field, Satan was this serpent! Satan doesn’t possess snakes! Satan himself was CREATED A SERPENT. Even Paul acknowledges that it was "the SERPENT" that deluded Eve, and not some other creature possessing a snake (II Cor. 11:3).

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between THY SEED and her seed, it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel" (Gen. 3:15).

This serpent that shall bruise the heel of Eve’s seed (singular seed -- Christ) is clearly Satan the Devil who also has seed, "thy seed." Jesus said, "You are of your father the Devil...?" (John 8:44). Satan the Devil has "seed"; he is a "father;" a father has children and followers of like nature. No literal snake ever produced a seed that bruised the heel of Jesus. Snakes do not "eat dust" but Satan dines on mankind "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour [Greek: (lit. or fig.) gulp entirely, swallow up] I Pet. 5:08). And he seeks to devour mankind who are "dust" of the earth ("...for dust thou art...." Gen. 3:19).

"By HIS SPIRIT He hath garnished the heavens; his HAND has FORMED THE CROOKED SERPENT" (Job 26:13). God garnished the heavens by His SPIRIT, because they are a thing of great glory, beauty, and splendor. But the crooked SERPENT God formed by His "hand" -- at ARM'S LENGTH. Thus indicating it was something necessary, but not of His HEART AND SPIRIT! Satan is called "the crooked serpent." This word crooked comes from a Hebrew word that is not translated "crooked" anywhere else in the Bible. The word in Hebrew is bariach, and it means "a fugitive," Strong’s #1281. And "fugitive" is from the Hebrew word nuwa, Strong’s #5128, among its several meanings are: "to [go] up and down," and "to and fro," and to "sift." Remember that God names things according to what they are and what they do:
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http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html ------------------

Satan entered Eden as "that Old Serpent [Satan]" and deceived Eve to eat of the forbidden fruit. Satan didn’t sneak into the garden against God’s will. He performed a needful task with our first parents. God knew what Satan was going to do to Adam and Eve. God did not try to prevent it. It is all part of God’s master plan.

Just as God has provided food for mankind, He has also provided food for Satan. And just what kind of food does Satan dine on?  Satan dines on mankind.

"And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because you have done this, you are cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon your belly shall you go, and DUST SHALL YOU EAT all the days of your life" (Gen. 3:14).

This is, of course a parable. That "serpent" in the garden was none other than

"…that OLD SERPENT, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world…" (Rev. 12:9).

And this is the same serpent that "deceived" Eve.

Man is the "dust of the earth" upon which Satan dines: "The first man [Adam] is of the earth, earthy [dust]…" (I Cor. 15:47). Man IS ‘dust.’

"…for DUST you are, and unto DUST shall you return" (Gen. 3:19).

When God told the serpent devil Satan that he would eat DUST, He was telling him that he would eat MAN (adam). And this is exactly what Peter tells us in his epistle:

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour [Gk: swallow down/eat]" (I Pet. 5:08).

Satan dines and thrives on the meat of the "carnal [Greek: sarx; flesh] mind [which] is enmity [hostility/hatred] against God: for it is not subject to the [spiritual] law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 08:7).

Satan does not seek to devour everyone for food; only those who are carnally [fleshly] minded represent a great steak dinner to him.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: January 19, 2012, 11:10:45 AM by Kat »
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Gina

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Re: The knowledge of good and evil
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2012, 02:07:58 AM »

Matt, you have this knack for articulating things so others can see.  It's like--  BOOM!  There it is!
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Gina

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Re: The knowledge of good and evil
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2012, 01:45:06 AM »

Quote
"By HIS SPIRIT He hath garnished the heavens; his HAND has FORMED THE CROOKED SERPENT" (Job 26:13). God garnished the heavens by His SPIRIT, because they are a thing of great glory, beauty, and splendor. But the crooked SERPENT God formed by His "hand" -- at ARM'S LENGTH. Thus indicating it was something necessary, but not of His HEART AND SPIRIT! Satan is called "the crooked serpent."

I just saw that for the first time.  That's fascinating.

So, Matt's asking, "Who is the serpent?"  And that describes the serpent somewhat, but what does that tell us really about how to recognize satan should he show up to dine on us?  How do we recognize him?  Or recognize his off-spring?  Would "knowing 'them' by their fruit" be fitting here? 

I see why Matt asks the question about WHO Satan is -- as if to say Satan wasn't a creature serpent but a person.  I've thought the same thing many times.  Look at what Ray says:

Quote
To listen to the Church, one would think that Satan is some silly clown that can be poked fun at and tossed around like some rag doll. I have heard televangelists make statements similar to this: "Tonight we are going to take hold of that Old Serpent, Satan the Devil, by his tail, and toss him out on his ear!" Oh, really? Most such preachers would not recognize Satan if they were shaking hands with him and starring him in the eyes.

To me, it doesn't really matter what satan looked like before he came up to Eve or what he was like as he approached Eve, so much as it matters that I recognize him when he shows up to dine on me, now!  haha

And I just realized something:  For the elect (whoever they may be--male or female) it is not possible for them to be deceived, but then wouldn't that necessarily mean that Satan cannot then tempt the elect to sin and cause them to sin again? 
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 01:50:57 AM by Gina »
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Kat

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Re: The knowledge of good and evil
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2012, 02:54:32 AM »

Hi Gina,

Quote
So, Matt's asking, "Who is the serpent?"  And that describes the serpent somewhat, but what does that tell us really about how to recognize satan should he show up to dine on us?  How do we recognize him?  Or recognize his off-spring?  Would "knowing 'them' by their fruit" be fitting here? 


Satan is spirit, he is in heaven and he is invisible, so are his demon cohorts. The way he deal with mankind is by tempting us... have you ever had an evil thought just pop into your head?  What about being angry and somehow it builds and just grows out of control? Just maybe sometimes those wrong thoughts or that lack of self control get a big boost from somewhere.

We are creatures of habit and if we are tempted in the wrong direction and we go with it enough times then we develop a bad habit. Can you see how Satan invisible hand can have a very active role in causing wrong behavior without our even being aware of it? We need to think about where that little voice we hear (in our head) is coming from.

The Holy Spirit indwelling is a very big help to make us aware when these wrong thoughts, words or actions take place, it will not allow us to be okay with these things. The Holy Spirit will cause our spirit to be toubled and disturbed by these things that we will eventually stop doing them. But it takes time it is a process.

Jas 4:7  Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Here is part of the article 15 where Ray speaks about Satan a bit.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html --------------

THE KINGDOMS OF SATAN AND HIS ROLE AS ADVERSARY

A note of great importance: Why didn’t God personally, and directly bring all of these trials and calamity of evils upon Job? Why did God USE Satan? Or is this just another case of God “allowing” Satan to test Job? We shall soon see how much God “allows” in the Scriptures, and it will shock most people when they learn the Truth.

At the start of this paper we learned that Satan (Beelzebub) has a “kingdom.” And that it involves the spiritual realm of demons and devils.

But Satan rules over far more than just the realm of demons. Lets learn a few more Truths that have been hidden from the eyes of Christendom.

Did God really, merely, allow Satan to try Job? God will reveal to our spirit many many spiritual truths of paramount importance if we will read His word and BELIEVE WHAT WE READ.

“And the Lord said unto Satan…”  (Job 1:7).

“And the Lord said unto Satan…” (Job 1:08).

“And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he has is in THY power; only upon himself put not forth your hand. So Satan went…”(Job.1:12).

Now really, is this whole scenario something that Satan thought up? Is this something that God is just “allowing?” Be honest. God set this whole thing up from the beginning. GOD goaded Satan into a negative response. GOD pushed Satan to find an excuse for Job “eschewing evil.” GOD set up this trial. GOD commissioned Satan to bring evil against Job. GOD instructed Satan as to just how far that evil could extend. THIS WAS ALL OF GOD!

But God does not work this way with all mankind, seeing that God is a respecter of persons and God changes His overall approach to the trying of mankind, doesn’t He? I speak as a fool:

All mankind: 

“An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity [that’s everyone] to humble them by it”  (Ecc. 1:13).

A respecter of persons:

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons”  (Acts 10:34).

God changes: 

“For I am the LORD, I change not…”  (Mal. 3:6).

No, God CAUSED and USED Satan in the trying of Job.

Did God merely “allow” Satan to try Jesus Christ our Lord?

“Then was Jesus led up of the SPIRIT [of GOD] into the wilderness [This is the Spirit of God leading Jesus up into the wilderness. But why? For what purpose?] to be tempted [Gk: ‘tested’] OF THE DEVIL [Satan, Ver. 10]” (Matt. 4:1).

Is this not the very same thing we read concerning Job; that he was “tested of God” through the vessel of Satan?

“But He knows the way that I take: when He [God] has tried me [Hebrew:  ‘tested me’]” (Job 23:10).

Satan has a kingdom. Jesus said he has a kingdom. Jesus Himself created all of those “powers and principalities” and kingdoms:

“For by Him [Jesus] were ALL things created that are in heaven [we covered this part earlier] and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions [Greek: ‘rulers’], or principalities, or powers…” (Col. 1:16).

Notice that Jesus created “dominions—RULERS.” Are we told anywhere specifically who or what these “rulers” are?

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the RULERS of the darkness…” (Eph. 6:12).

The Greek word translated “rulers” in Strong’s Greek Dictionary is “#2888, kosmo [from #2889, the world] krator [from #2902 to seize/strength], a world ruler an epithet of Satan” (Strong’s p. 143-144).

“A WORLD RULER”! An epithet of SATAN! Wow! Where have we seen this before? This word kosmokrator—A WORLD RULER—an epithet of Satan is used nowhere else in the entire Bible but in Eph. 6:12, and refers to no one else except Satan. And rightly so: after all, how many “world rulers” can there be? 

There is only ONE “ruler of this world” and it is SATAN!
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 11:18:32 AM by Kat »
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onelovedread

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Re: The knowledge of good and evil
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2012, 11:31:29 AM »

Are Matt and Kat twins? :-X
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Gina

  • Guest
Re: The knowledge of good and evil
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2012, 01:08:28 PM »

Thanks, Kat. :)  Especially for this:

Quote
The Holy Spirit indwelling is a very big help to make us aware when these wrong thoughts, words or actions take place, it will not allow us to be okay with these things. The Holy Spirit will cause our spirit to be troubled and disturbed by these things that we will eventually stop doing them. But it takes time it is a process.

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Gina

  • Guest
Re: The knowledge of good and evil
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2012, 01:15:51 PM »

I said this in my earlier reply: 
Quote
For the elect (whoever they may be--male or female) it is not possible for them to be deceived, but then wouldn't that necessarily mean that Satan cannot then tempt the elect to sin and cause them to sin again? 

And then I went to bed thinking and realized, yes it possible for the elect to not be deceived and yet sin.  Eve was deceived and Adam was not, as it's pointed out, but Adam still transgressed the law.   Can't believe I asked that..  haha  Facepalm!

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