Does anyone else here fear God?

[marrcus]

Does anyone else here fear God? I do. I am scared that the eternal torment
stuff might be true.

I have been following various online discussions (on other sites) about the
ultimate fate of the damned. There seems to be three possibilities:
1. eternal torment (the mainstream favorite)
2. annihilation (with or without preliminary torment)
3. universal reconciliation (with or without preliminary torment)

For every scripture or argument in favor of one option,
there are others against. The evidence and arguments seem
more or less equal, at least to my untrained mind.

This has been hurting my head for weeks.

I have no ego in this, no axe to grind.

How do others cope with the dilemma?

I appreciate all advice.

[cheekie3]

marrcus

The best source to address and answer your questions and concerns is "The Lake of Fire" series; and the Bill Weiss paper.

There is no eternal punishment or extermination for anyone.

God is creating children after His own Likeness; and this is a long and at times very painful experience through His Judgements (Chastisements) on each and every one of us, through much tribulation as only through the experience of Evil can we understand and choose Good.

It is mainly through our experiences of both Good and Evil that God creates His own characteristics in us.

I trust this helps.

George.

[Mbongiseni]

Hi Marcus

Welcome youngman!
It will serve you a good purpose to read first the "Lake of fire series" especially Installment 16 in its entirety. By the time you finish the first three subsections; will be fulfilled Psalm 36:9 For with You is the fountain of life;In Your light we see light.

Please enjoy your reading and the Spirit of Wisdom abide in you.
Mbo

[John9362]

No I don't fear my Father, I love Him and He Loves me even more !

Read the BT website, works for me 

[arion]

Welcome to the forum.  The knowledge of the truth doesn't come through reading.  God has to open our eyes to his truth in his time.  That being said I also agree that you need to read through the lake of fire series, the letters to Kennedy and Hagee as well as 'hell is a Christian Hoax' paper.  The main problem with Christendom is the constant contradictions.  Two small things to whet your appetite.  First of all, is there anything in the scriptures which indicate as to what God thinks about burning people in literal fire?  Yes there is.

In the old testament the pagans had a nasty habit of burning their firstborn to cinders in real fire as a sacrifice to the gods.  There are many scriptures about this.  Here is one.

Jer 32:35  And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

The 'passing through the fire' is an euphemism for burning their children in real fire.  We are told in the verse above that the practice of burning people in real fire is an abomination to the Lord.  And the word for mind [leb] is better translated as heart.  It never even entered God's heart to have people burn in real fire.  Yet Christendom tells us that God will do this abomination to most of humanity.

Working through the papers on the website you will find out that the words translated as 'hell' doesn't mean what we are told that it means and Ray proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt.  Let me leave you with one more scripture that every Christian will confess that they believe and yet in their heart of hearts hardly any believe this.

1Jn 4:7-8  Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.  He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

We are told that God is love.  And we are told in other scriptures that we are told to love our enemies and to do good to those who abuse us and persecute us.  Yet the church would have us believe that at the moment of a sinners death that God's love fails and his 'love' turns to vehement hatred.  You can't be 'love' and at the same time torture your enemies for all eternity. 

Work your way through the papers and the teachings.  It takes time to unlearn the errors we were brought up with and to come to the knowledge of the truth of these things.  Just stick with it.  In time God will open your eyes and reveal these truths to you.

[indianabob]

Good morning in Australia to Marrcus,

Great to read your question and your introduction.
At my age I recall that I used to fear the unknown and that included what God was going to do to me or let happen to me. Now that I have a little of the truth of God's purpose I am at peace even in my physical pain. It still hurts but I know that God will heal me eventually and I live with real joy.

Many of my friends have learned to deal with their physical and emotional pain as well, but their way of dealing with it is to give up and stop caring and just assume that either they deserve it or that God is vengeful and mean when He enforces His law. e.g. you break God's law and the law will break you. That seems to be what some authorities teach about our Father based upon their human understanding.
If you no longer believe that God is vengeful and mean then your eyes have begun to be opened to the real truth. You are being invited (drawn) to learn and to grow in grace and knowledge and it is a process similar to other life experiences EXCEPT that you are in God's classroom now and the lessons are tailored for you and for your individual needs. What a wonderful gift we have from our Lord.
Welcome to the family of brothers and sisters in Christ.
Indiana Bob

[Patrick]

Ray's Bible study from March 2011 ~ Are You Afraid Of God?
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12896.msg113269.html#msg113269

[Gina]

I went through that very thing recently, and the only thing I can tell you is, you have to get to the place where you confess to believing that God is evil.  That is, in order to believe that God would torment humanity forever, which HE made weak by the way, for no redeeming purpose what-so-ever, you would have to believe that God does NOT love us, is stupid, impatient, and more evil than Satan himself.

And that's just preposterous.  Here's what will happen if you look at God that way:

1.  You will start to look for ways to run from Him.

2.  You will start to look for ways to make yourself feel better.

3.  Then you will start to look to others to get you out of messes you find yourself in.

4.  When that doesn't happen, you will reluctantly turn back to God.

5.  You will find that only God can save you and love you like no one else can.

6.  Then, you will see that God does not torment people for no redeeming purpose.

7.  And you will start to really believe what you read.

Seven's a good number.  I'll stop there.

[Kat]

Hi Marrcus,

The doctrine of hell was created in order to strike fear into the people. Ray brings out the origin of where this came from and how and why it is now preached in all the churches. Here are some of the places he teaches on this.

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html --------------------------------

KEEPING THE DUMB SHEEP DUMB

Since none of these things which the Jews of Jesus' day believed were taught in the Law of Moses, just where did the Jews learn of these pagan doctrines?

Most theologians are clearly deceived; however, not all are ignorant. Many theologians know at least some of the material I am presenting to you. But they don't want you to know or understand any of it. It has been the purpose of the ruling privileged elite to keep the masses at bay by evil indoctrinations, deceptions, and gross fear.
v
And it is EGYPT that is the originator of these gross and evil doctrines of eternal torture after death of the souls which supposedly cannot die.

The Egyptian priests and legislators invented these damnable heresies, and the Babylonians, Greeks, and Romans thought it was the best thing that ever happened to them since homemade chocolate fudge. What a clever and inexpensive way to keep the people in constant fear of their religious and civil leaders!

Historians have called Egypt, "The MOTHER OF SUPERSTITIONS." Does "Mystery Babylon the Great, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS, and the abominations of the earth" come to mind when you read that?

Greek and Roman lawyers, philosophers, and priests, acknowledge their indebtedness to Egypt in this respect, and freely credit her with the ORIGINAL INVENTION OF THE FABLES AND TERRORS of the invisible world; though it must be allowed that they have improved somewhat upon the hints given, and shown a wonderful inventive faculty of their own. (Paraphrased from some of Thayer's material.)

So, how did they keep the dumb sheep in line? By filling their heads with visions of eternal torture in fire if they didn't obey every whim of their religious and civil leaders.

"How LONG, ye simple ones [Heb: 'silly, seducible, foolish, naive'] will ye love simplicity [Heb: 'silliness, seductiveness, foolishness, naivete']? And the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?" (Prov. 1:22.)

Yes, how true: "...fools HATE knowledge." I do my best to free people from the spiritual dictators over their lives, but often they not only hate the knowledge that I give them, but they also hate me for teaching them.

"My people have been lost sheep: THEIR SHEPHERDS HAVE CAUSED THEM TO GO ASTRAY..." (Jer. 50:6.)


http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D1.htm --------------------------------

The Holy Scriptures know nothing of a Christian hell of eternal torment.

The Christian hell is a Christian hoax.

The Jewish hell is a Jewish hoax.

The Islamic hell is a Islamic hoax.

The Greek hell is a Greek hoax.

The Hindu hell is a Hindu hoax.

The Babylonian hell is a Babylonian hoax.

The Egyptian hell is an Egyptian hoax.

And every other hell of every other culture and religion on earth is a man-made HOAX!

For thousands of years the religious and civil leaders of virtually every major nation and culture on earth have used the fear and terror of a future "hell" to keep their citizens (always considered dumb sheep by the elite clerics and governors) obedient to the whims of their authority. This practice continues unabated to this day, and the majority of the human race has ignorantly bought it.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2407.0.html --------

Dear Pastor Tim:

You need to put away the Christianized Paganism of the Greeks and Egyptians and learn the Truths of God's Word. Read my series on "Hell" for more information. Jesus never spoke the word "hell" in His entire ministry--not in Greek, not in Hebrew, and not in Aramaic. Neither are the words "everlasting, eternal, evermore, and forever AND EVER" found in any Greek or Hebrew manuscripts from which our modern English bibles have been translated. I know this for a fact, Tim, but you don't, and you should.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2658.0.html -------------

No, Augustie was not the first, but he was probbly the most effective in spreading the heresy of an hell of eternal torment. Paul warned that after his departure wolves would enter the flock and tear it apart, and that heresy and apostasy was already at work, so it should come as no surprise that many of the early "fathers" taught such unscriptural nonsense, but not all.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6978.0.html  -------------------------------

Dear Bob:  Justinian (540 AD) was one primarily responsible for changing eons or ages into "ENDLESS ages."  He knew that aion/aionios in the Greek did not mean endless, but rather an age or pertaining to a age, and so he began teaching "endless" ages or eternity. The words "chastisement" which means to correct and set straight and right were changed to "punishment." So instead of having age-lasting correction in Judgment, Judgment became endless, eternal torture as punishment for sins that could never again be repented of. The King James translators followed closely the traditions of the Jerome and his Vulgate, Justinian, and the Roman Catholic Church, regarding these teachings. What a damnable teaching.


http://bible-truths.com/email8.htm ------------------------------

It has been the churches that have caused men to fear God as a fickled kind of a god who one never quite knows for sure which side of the bed he got up on and therefore we must always be in fear and trepidation of our salvation. The "Pastors" (you are correct there is truly only ONE PASTOR of the sheep and that is Christ) love this power over the dumb sheep.

Have no fear. If you love God you will NEVER be blotted out of Christ the true book of life.

"Error laden sermons" is not nearly as huge a problem as error laden hearts and minds. As most pastors of Christendom are not converted and actually despise the True Word of God, they will have to be purged with the fire of God's Holy Spirit. In one way or the other we ALL must bear our cross and go through the fire (See First Cor. 3).  Also be sure to read my paper on the Lake of Fire which is now being posted in installments on this site.

Isaiah tells us that it is the "shepherds" that have LEAD GOD'S SHEEP ASTRAY. They will bear the greater accountability for their sins.


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,136.0.html ----------------

you do not have enough information on this subject to even have a valid opinion. You say: "The BIBLE says....."  God did not write the "bible."  God wrote the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures from which we  translate bibles. There are many bibles that do not contain the word "hell." Do you know why? Of course you don't. Well the reason is that there is no word in either the Hebrew or Greek Scriptures that can be translated "hell," that's why. If you would read my series on "HELL," you would learn these things, but the question is, Are you interested in the Truths of God or the evil traditions of men?


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3866.msg29307#msg29307 -----------

Dear Mike in NH:
Your own words condemn you!  You despise the Word of God.  You teach contrary to the Word of God. You teach "DAMNABLE HERESIES," when you teach that God cannot and will not convert all sinners, and that Jesus will NOT be "THE SAVIOUR OF THE WHOLE WORLD" as His God and Fathered commissioned Him (John 1:29;  I John 2:2 & 4:14 and a hundred more like them). You teach that most of humanity will burn eternally in a hellhole of literal fire, and you then tell me about the lies of Satan.

"For the wages of sin IS DEATH," Mike, NOT eternal LIFE in pain and torture (Rom. 6:23). God told Adam: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall SURELY DIE" (Gen. 1:17). But what do YOU & SATAN teach?  "And the serpent [and Mike in New Hampshire] said unto the woman, YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE" (Gen. 3:4).

You, Mike, YOU & SATAN are the liars.  And here is YOUR fate and SATAN'S fate and all peoples fate who do not bitterly repent of LYING:  "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, AND ALL LIARS, shall burn with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev. 21:08). No, it is not "eternal" burning, neither is it physical, "For God [Who is SPIRIT] is a CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29), but it will SPIRITUALLY cleanse all of their evil and UN-repented sins.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6979.0.html ---------------

We could just as easily ask: "If there IS an hell of eternal torture for most of our grandmothers and grandfathers, what would be the point of believing in Christ?"  I couldn't worship a "god" who would torture most of the grandfathers and grandmothers and great grandfathers and great grandmothers of the entire human race in literal fire for all eternity. That is total insanity. (See My HELL series for proof that if 90% of humanity is going to hell as Christendom suggests, then the majority of people suffering in hell would be Great grandmothers, etc.)

Surprising as it may sound, there is not one Scripture in the entirety of the Bible which states that Jesus came to "save us from HELL."  Why do you suppose that is?  Because Jesus does NOT save us from hell. Jesus saves us from such evil, and foolishness, and pride, and vanity, and evil, and pain, and suffering, and disease, and fear, and sin, and DEATH. Those are the things that Jesus saves us from, and none will be saved except THROUGH & BY Jesus Christ. So therefore, all will come to Jesus eventually, and He will save all humanity. That is the "Good News Gospel" as opposed to the Christian "BAD News Gospel."

God be with you,
Ray

[Gina]

Beautiful.

[dogcombat]

What Kat posted shows something even deeper.  Something I've called the "high profitability of dumb".  If I TELL you what to think, you'll believe what I say.  But if I CHALLENGE you to think, you might question what I say.  Most of the leaders of CHRISTIANDOM know that if they repeat a lie loud enough and long enough, it will pass as the truth.  As long as their flock accept what they're told, without question, they'll believe it. 

We WILL endure many sufferings in this life as written in 2 thessalonians 1 (KJV)

3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

and in proverbs 1:7

7 The fear of the LORD IS THE BEGINNING OF KNOWLEDGE: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Notice this and other verses you'll come across(like Psalms 111:10 & Proverbs 9:10) talk about fearing the Lord "is the BEGINNING of knowledge".

Does that mean you'll stay afraid of God?  NO!

How can you draw near to God when you've always been taught to FEAR Him?  Think of the line in the Hymn "Amazing Grace"

Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears reliev'd;

Do you now see a little bit of the Grace of God at work?  At first you'll fear God when He humbles you down.  But His love and grace will carry you through the trials and persecutions we all MUST endure.  I ask Marrcus, that as you R-E-A-D the papers on the bible truths site.  May God open your understanding to His love and power to redeem us "after the counsel of his own will (Eph 1:11).

God be with you
Ches

[Gina]

Notice this and other verses you'll come across(like Psalms 111:10 & Proverbs 9:10) talk about fearing the Lord "is the BEGINNING of knowledge".

That is great!  Thanks!

[Samson]

Does anyone else here fear God? I do. I am scared that the eternal torment
stuff might be true.

I have been following various online discussions (on other sites) about the
ultimate fate of the damned. There seems to be three possibilities:
1. eternal torment (the mainstream favorite)
2. annihilation (with or without preliminary torment)
3. universal reconciliation (with or without preliminary torment)

For every scripture or argument in favor of one option,
there are others against. The evidence and arguments seem
more or less equal, at least to my untrained mind.

This has been hurting my head for weeks.

I have no ego in this, no axe to grind.

How do others cope with the dilemma?

I appreciate all advice.

Hi Marrcus,

Fear not, none of it's true. For those adherents of the "Eternal" or Endless Punishment adherents and their claimed certainty of it, I thought of asking them this: " Which one is it?" What I mean by that question is as follows: Is it Eternal Separation from God's presence; Is it a literal physical Hell Fire where people literally feel burning Fire; Is it Annihilation or Endless Death(Non Existence). There are those who advocate Endless Punishment for a certainty, but aren't certain which form it actually is. For a Man Made Pagan originated doctrine of such magnitude to be true & so important individually to who ever lived, wouldn't those who advocate this outcome know exactly what it entails. True, some do have a specific interpretation of Endless Punishment, but in the real world of "Orthodox" circles, they don't agree on exactly what this "supposed" punishment actually is. For Me, that's illogical & inconsistent, especially for a subject of such importance & magnitude.

There are too many flaws & inconsistencies throughout the Scriptures to warrant there being any Truth to this Endless Punishment Doctrine in any of it's forms for it to be correct. For if Endless Punishment is true based on the Scriptures, you would have to throw the Bible in the garbage, because it would lead to too many contradictions, inconsistencies and clearly present God as a liar and since We know that God doesn't Lie(Titus. 1:2), there would have to be proof that the Scriptures don't contradict & information that easily disproves the Doctrine of Endless Punishment. I will make some points below, including some of Ray's material.

If Endless Punishment were True, it would have to be consistently & clearly taught right from the beginning(Genesis). Cain was angry with His Brother Abel, God knowing His heart condition in this matter warned Cain regarding His attitude & Countenance. Cain Murdered His Brother anyway & God sent Cain to the land of fugitiveness, warning that no one was to kill Cain or He would be avenged. Cain responded saying His punishment was too great. What ! His punishment was too great, He just murdered His Brother. No warning of Endless Punishment mentioned in that passage. Wouldn't God warn people of Endless Punishment before distributing it. That makes no sense at all.

Gen 4:5  But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Gen 4:6  And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

Gen 4:8  And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
Gen 4:9  And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

Gen 4:11  And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
Gen 4:12  When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
Gen 4:13  And Cain said unto the LORD, MY PUNISHMENT IS GREATER THAN I CAN BEAR.

Gen 4:14  Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
Gen 4:15  And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Lets consider the Flood in Noahs Day, no mention of Endless Punishment for those that didn't listen to Noah. Read Below !

Gen 6:5  And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6  And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7  And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

DESTROY: mâchâh
maw-khaw'
A primitive root; properly to stroke or rub; by implication to erase; also to smooth (as if with oil), that is, grease or make fat; also to touch, that is, reach to: - abolish, blot out, destroy, full of marrow, put out, reach unto, X utterly, wipe (away, out).

Yes, they were DESTROYED OR ERASED in this Lifetime, but no Hebrew words attached that mean Endless. Ohlam usually mistranslated "Forever" is not mentioned in connection with this DESTROYED at Genesis. 6:7. A Side Note: Ohlam is an almost exact equivalent of the Greek Aion which means " An Age," a period of time with a beginning and an ending.

Lets consider Sodom & Gomorrah, surely if anyone deserves " Endless Punishment," those Guys would get it, according to Orthodoxy.

Gen 19:13  For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.

Gen 19:24  Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Yes, the inhabitants were destroyed, no indication from this Account that it was permanent. Let's read what Ezekiel & Jesus have to say about Sodom & Gomorrah. Read Below !

Eze 16:49  Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
Eze 16:50  And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
Eze 16:51  Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done.
Eze 16:52  Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters.

Now the Punch line concerning Sodom & Her Abominations, read below.

Eze 16:55  When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to THEIR FORMER ESTATE, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to THEIR FORMER ESTATE, then thou and thy daughters shall return to YOUR FORMER ESTATE.

FORMER ESTATE: qadmâh
kad-maw'
From H6923; priority (in time); also used adverbially (before): - afore, antiquity, former (old) estate.

SHALL RETURN: shoob
A primitive root; to turn back (hence, away) transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point); generally to retreat; often adverbially again: -  ([break, build, circumcise, dig, do anything, do evil, feed, lay down, lie down, lodge, make, rejoice, send, take, weep]) X again, (cause to) answer (+ again), X in any case (wise), X at all, averse, bring (again, back, home again), call [to mind], carry again (back), cease, X certainly, come again (back) X consider, + continually, CONVERT, DELIVER(again), + deny, draw back, fetch home again, X fro, get [oneself] (back) again, X give (again), go again (back, home), [go] out, hinder, let, [see] more, X needs, be past, X pay, pervert, pull in again, put (again, up again), recall, recompense, RECOVER, refresh, relieve, render (again), X repent, requite, rescue, RESTORE, retrieve, (cause to, make to) return, reverse, reward, + say nay, send back, set again, slide back, still, X surely, take back (off), (cause to, make to) turn (again, self again, away, back, back again, backward, from, off), withdraw.

CAPS FOR EMPHASIS MINE IN THE ABOVE.

Lets read what Jesus has to say about Sodom, read below.

Mat 10:14  And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Mat 10:15  Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Mat 11:21  Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Mat 11:22  But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
Mat 11:23  And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom,IT WOULD HAVE REMAINED UNTIL THIS DAY.

Mat 11:24  But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

TOLERABLE: anektoteros
an-ek-tot'-er-os
Comparative of a derivative of G430; MORE ENDURABLE: - more tolerable.

True, the inhabitants of Sodom & Gomorrah will be judged after being Resurrected, but if they had witnessed Jesus mighty works, they would have remained until His day. Why would they receive Endless Punishment if they didn't even get the opportunity to witness what Capernaum & the other Cities were able to. That sounds like a double standard, that's what Human injustice is all about, not perfect justice from Jesus.

So, in all of the above, We have Three examples: Cain's Murder; Noahs Day; Sodom & Gomorrah where not mention of Endless Punishment, Destruction or Fiery Hell torment is mentioned. All of these Three Cases involve extremely Wicked Cities & individuals. Wouldn't God specifically & clearly warn people of Endless Punishment in advance before implementing it.

Now, I decided to only Address this aspect of why Endless Punishment is unscriptural, other Forum Members will probably other considerations. Sorry, I don't have time now to continue, hope you understand.

Read Rays Article: THE ORIGIN OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT(LAKE OF FIRE PART XVI), I'll copy & paste a few quotes for you in blue.

ADAM AND EVE WERE NEVER WARNED BY GOD OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT

    "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall SURELY DIE" (Gen. 2:17.)

The wages for eating the forbidden fruit was "you shall surely die." And:

    "In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, till you return unto the ground [not be turned into a terrorist's hellhole of endless torture in some pagan hell]: for out of it [the ground] were you taken; for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return" (Gen. 3:19.)

Death began immediately. Notice a better translation of Gen. 2:17:

    "...to die shall you BE DYING" (Concordant Old Testament.)

Their life was but a slow death until they returned to the dust of the ground. God said that their judgment for sinning was to be RETURNED to the ground from whence they came. They didn't come from some terrorist's hellhole of torture in fire, so how could they "return" to such a place when God plainly stated that they would "RETURN unto the ground?" They came from the earth and they returned to that earth.

God cursed the serpent, and God cursed the ground, but nowhere did God curse Adam and Eve. God pointed out the different judgments against Adam and Eve, such as multiplied childbearing pains, sorrow in gathering food all the days of his life, thorns, thistles, and sweat, but no mention of punishment in death or after death.

If Adam and Eve were to have a far greater punishment (trillions and trillions of times greater) at death or in death or after death, why did not God warn them of such a horrible destiny? Why would God tell them one thing and then pull a trick on them and do something totally different when the time came?

CAIN WAS NEVER WARNED BY GOD OF ENDLESS PUNISHMENT

Notice very carefully God's conversation with Cain:

    "But unto Cain and to his offering He [God] had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the Lord said unto Cain, Why are you wroth? And why is your countenance fallen? If you do well, shall you not be accepted? And if you do not well, SIN lies at the door. And unto you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him" (Gen. 4:5-7.)

God warned Cain that if he did not do well, that sin would be at his door. But did God say "endless torment and punishment would be at his door?" No.

    "And Cain talked with Abel, his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and slew him. And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel your brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? And He said, What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood cries unto Me from the ground.

    And now are you cursed from the earth which has opened her mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand: When you till the ground it shall not henceforth yield unto you her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shall you be in the earth" (Verses 8-12.)

Did God threaten Cain with "endless punishment in some subterranean hellhole of torture in fire?" No. But notice Cain's reply:

    "And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, you have driven me out this day from the face of the earth, and from Your face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth: and it shall come to pass, that every one [any one] that finds me shall slay me" (Verse 13-14.)

CHRISTENDOM CONTINUES TO PERPETUATE SATAN'S FIRST RECORDED LIE

As the early Egyptian settlers along the Nile lost virtually all truth they had before the flood and through their ancestral family of Noah, they replaced that lost knowledge with strange and fanciful myths. And, as they lost knowledge of the True God, which brought them safely through the flood, they began worshipping man-made gods. Although they lost sight of the True God and His teachings, they did not, however, lose sight of the world's first giant lie.

That first recorded lie in history survived the first couple of thousand years, survived the flood of Noah's day, survived the expansion of civilization in Mesopotamia, through all the myriads of Egyptian mythology, the Exodus, the four world-ruling kingdoms of Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome, survived the introduction of Christianity into the world, survived the Dark Ages, the Middle ages, the Renaissance, the Reformation, survived the modern translations of Scriptures, and is presented flourishing in a frenzy of Christian world evangelism.

This "damnable heresy" is taught and believed with such vigor and enthusiasm, that to speak the Scriptural truth against it is to open oneself up to ridicule and persecution from the Christian community. Any outsider coming into the Christian faith would surely believe that it was God who said, "you shall NOT SURELY die," and that it was Satan who said, "you shall SURELY die" for that is what the Church believes and teaches, contrary to the hundreds of Scriptures which state otherwise.

This lie is the very bedrock of not only orthodox Christian theology, but also that of virtually every pagan and heathen religion on the face of the earth, throughout the history of the world.

(Although the pagans may tolerate what we are teaching at bible-truths.com, I guarantee you that the Church will not. There will come one day a reckoning with bible-truths.com, and you can take that to the bank. Even the "Church of Satan" will be tolerated, but the Truths of God will never be tolerated. When the Church leaders perceive that their pagan heresies are being exposed, and it begins to look as if their goose that is laying the golden eggs of tithes may be getting ready to fly the coop, there will be hell to pay.

The fear of the hereafter; the fear of being tortured in some hellhole of eternal fire, the fear of the clergy and the authority of the Church, this hideous, hideous fear, is the goose that lays the golden eggs. It is in fact, the money machine that keeps the wealth flowing into the Christian coffers.)

Kind Regards, Samson.





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[marrcus]

Thanks for the tips and comments. I have been studying the BT web site. I will keep on with it.

The things is, I was raised in Christianity --- my Mum is 90 years old and still goes to church every
Sunday --- but I just never got it. I never understood it. I dismissed it. Now I am feeling something
else ...  Today, reading the BT site, I started to see glimpses of a wonderful spiritual belief that I have
never known before.
 
I am eager to find out more!!!

BTW the eye in my pic belongs to my beautiful granddaughter aged 2!

[Gina]

Thanks for the tips and comments. I have been studying the BT web site. I will keep on with it.

The things is, I was raised in Christianity --- my Mum is 90 years old and still goes to church every
Sunday --- but I just never got it. I never understood it. I dismissed it. Now I am feeling something
else ...  Today, reading the BT site, I started to see glimpses of a wonderful spiritual belief that I have
never known before.
 
I am eager to find out more!!!

BTW the eye in my pic belongs to my beautiful granddaughter aged 2!

Marrcus, That is the most beautiful un-Photoshopped baby eye that I have ever seen.  :-)

We understand your dilemma.  I'm sure your mum is a very sweet lady.

These last two arguments always put the eternal torment doctrine of demons is its proper perspective, but only for those who have eyes to see.  So, before I sign off, here are the two best arguments in favor of salvation of all:




Argument by:  Mavis92379

    I have dumb founded many people by asking them If the penalty for sins is eternal hell like they are claiming than why did Jesus not have to burn in hell to pay for our sins? This is an extremly easy concept :

    The penalty for sin is death ! Rom 6:23
    Jesus paid our penalty by dying ! 1Cor 15:3


I have dumb founded many people by asking them If the penalty for sins is eternal hell like they are claiming than why did Jesus not have to burn in hell to pay for our sins? This is an extremly easy concept :

The penalty for sin is death ! Rom 6:23
Jesus paid our penalty by dying ! 1Cor 15:3

If someone is going to claim that the penalty for sin is burning in hell forever than they most also admit for Jesus to carry their penalty he must also have need to burn eternally.

Pretty simple huh ?
Source:  http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13790.msg121619.html#msg121619

 
Argument  by L. Ray Smith:

    Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin IS DEATH ; but the gift of God is  ETERNAL LIFE  through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    There it is.  What is the "WAGES" of sin?  There is no "gift" for sin, there is only "WAGES" for sin.  So what IS the "wages" of sin, is it "eternal LIFE?"  or "DEATH?"  Well we just read it, the "wages of sin is DEATH"--not eternal LIFE in hell. 

Source:  http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13793.msg121620.html#new

He who has eyes to see, let him see!

God Bless you, Marrcus.

[marrcus]

So many good and loving replies here. Thank you.

[jccarterjr]

It's not so much that I fear God as it is I fear his wrath if I don't do what he says.

[mharrell08]

It's not so much that I fear God as it is I fear his wrath if I don't do what he says.

Eventually you're going to find out that this type of worship doesn't work. God has not given us a spirit of fear [2 Tim 1:7], and He surely does not want us to worship Him as such. Take some time to read the articles on the site (http://bible-truths.com) for more details.



Marques

[jccarterjr]

I don't worship out of fear, I worship out all the good things he showered upon me. When I think I might want to go my way instead of his, I am reminded of every story in the bible where man decided he knew better than God and God showed him he didn't.

He got a little angry at Sodom and Gamora, he got angry wen he flooded the world, so it is not HIM I fear, but my own ego telling me I know better than GOD, because that will insight his wrath. I fear HIS wrath as much as I feared my own parents wrath when I was a child.