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Author Topic: The Bible "clearly states??"  (Read 4736 times)

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Duane

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The Bible "clearly states??"
« on: February 09, 2012, 02:02:32 AM »

A "B-T" detractor, close to me, wondered HOW i could possibly believe "Ray's/B-T" Bible "truths" when the Bible so
CLEARLY STATED her "fundamental" church beliefs:  Quoting partially below

"....end up trying to telling God why His CLEAR DIRECTIONS..."  ("..in the Bible"--and NOT following them)

Anyone studying the Bible KNOWS that God deliberately wrote the Bible so it WASN'T CLEAR --just like He talked on earth in PARABLES--"so that they (even the disciples) wouldn't understand."

Matthew 13:10 "And the disciples came and said unto Him, "Why do you speak to them in parables?"
13. "Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."
14-(Repeats Prophecy of Isaiah)
15. "For the hearts of this people have grown dull. There ears are hard of hearing and their eyes they have closed, LEST they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears. LEST they should understand with their hearts and turn, SO THAT I SHOULD HEAL THEM."

I believe the reason that the Bible is written much like a parable is that the Bible is understood at different levels as God has pre-ordained-- that people want to understand. Some people REALLY WANT to know God and the Bible SO God allows them a DEEPER UNDERSTANDING of His Word.

But BECAUSE God DIDN'T write the Bible CLEARLY --people and translator's have drawn an array of conclusions BASED on the same BOOK!

This has resulted in people SINCERELY BELIEVING different "truths".

BECAUSE the Bible was written on different levels of understanding and NOT CLEARLY--
You have:

The Calvinists vs. the Armenians
The pre, mid and post millenial-ists
Seventh Day worshipers vs. Sunday worshipers
Jews/those who hold to Biblical OT laws vs. protestant
Literal Hell vs. Greek meaning of hell/hades/unseen
Security of the believer vs. Non-security
Trans-substantiation of the Lord's body vs. symbolism communion
Confessing to a priest vs. Praying directly to God
Translators disagreeing over "eon'/eonian vs. eternal/everlasting
Sprinkling/infant baptism vs. immersion after knowledgeable salvation
and a whole HOST of sub-discussions---

Then , there's even the TRANSLATORS disagreeing over "eon'/eonian vs. eternal/everlasting

WHY--Didn't God spell everything right out so that there was NO CONFUSION?

WELL--HE DID!  Just ASK ANYONE who believes ANY of the ABOVE and they will say:
"The Bible is just as "clear as day" about what "I" believe!"
(Everyone else that believes DIFFERENTLY is either a "heretic" OR "has the verses that
"prove their point--OUT OF CONTEXT"!  (Or, the CHURCH accepts this as "inspired")

The MIRACLE OF IT ALL is that even with EVERYBODY understanding the Bible "clearly states"--
THEIR VIEWS--there is NO CONTRADICTION in the Bible!  ONLY GOD could "pull that one off"!
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Gina

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Re: The Bible "clearly states??"
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2012, 02:30:20 AM »

hehe,  Love, love, love those CAPS, Duane.   ;D
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G. Driggs

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Re: The Bible "clearly states??"
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2012, 02:55:41 AM »

I've heard there are some that do know the truth but lie anyway to keep their church scared, and keep them monies rolling in. Even some of the early translators knew aion does not mean "forever", but that didnt stop them. Either way all is of God.  Just a thought to consider and spot on with what you said.

Peace,

G.Driggs
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: The Bible "clearly states??"
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2012, 04:01:18 AM »


Right Duane.

Like your signature says....He chooses us, we don't choose Him, though we might think we do, claim we do, believe we do...yet in all His Wisdom, He chooses, elects, selects and determines, that He shall save the world!

 We aren't in exclusion of the world, but inclusion of the world for he came to save the world and that's us and all....Pretty neat huh! :) Thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven... 8)

Arc
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jccarterjr

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Re: The Bible "clearly states??"
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2012, 10:44:34 AM »

When you have been surrounded by lies your entire life, spiritual and physical, it the truth gets cold and hard, and that mirror starts showing a distorted image. I know I have walked that path.

Over a year ago this site helped me remember that Jesus is the way the truth and the light. The truth will set you free. Recently I have come to understand in a very personal way that some people were never meant to hear the truth.

Only those with wisdom will understand my words. I know it's Jesus speaking but where does not really matter what matters is that we have to accept the truth that not everyone will be saved. Why do you think he asked the Father to remove this cup, not because he was going to face the cross, but because he was going to come back as the lion. Dying for our sins was the easy part. Judging us, now that is something he would rather avoid. I had a vision of what could look like and it was not something I wish on anyone.

That's why I focus on the message, the last commandment of Christ. Love even your enemy as you love yourself. The rest of the book is just instructions on how to do that. Revelation is what happens if we don't.

The next time you see a brother or sister falling in their faith remind them what Christ commands of us and remember love has many forms and some times it has to get tough. I know God has taken to me with the rod many times, but he always protects me with the staff. Love even your enemy as God has loved you. If God forgives us, who am I not to forgive?
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: The Bible "clearly states??"
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2012, 11:40:55 AM »

Quote
Only those with wisdom will understand my words.


You may want to reconsider this statement. Only those who God chose before the foundation of the world will understand the truth when they here it. The others are blinded by God for a season.

Quote
I know it's Jesus speaking but where does not really matter what matters is that we have to accept the truth that not everyone will be saved.

But everyone will be saved - Just not all at the same time
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jccarterjr

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Re: The Bible "clearly states??"
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2012, 01:03:53 PM »

All good things come from GOD. So if I have the wisdom to understand HIS words it is because HE chose to give me that wisdom.

You have to choose to accept him or you will perish. John 3:16
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Craig

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Re: The Bible "clearly states??"
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2012, 02:05:42 PM »

Quote
You have to choose to accept him or you will perish. John 3:16

Have you really read and studied anything that Ray teaches on www.bibletruths.com?  If so, where did you pick up that little nugget of wisdom on that particular scripture?

Craig
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Foxx

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Re: The Bible "clearly states??"
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2012, 02:09:22 PM »

thank you Duane, so very true. I'm gonna incorporate this
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jccarterjr

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Re: The Bible "clearly states??"
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2012, 02:11:07 PM »

I was listening to a pastor who had been studying for many years and he was relaying that the use of the word perish in this verse in the original text translates to cease to exist. It sounded correct and I have asked others of faith who have studied such things and they seemed to have no problem with that interpretation. I am interested in truth no matter what the source. The answers are not in one place but anyplace God chooses to speak to us.
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Craig

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Re: The Bible "clearly states??"
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2012, 02:13:12 PM »

O.K. but what of my first question?

Quote
Have you really read and studied anything that Ray teaches on www.bibletruths.com? 

If you have where do you see a belief in what you state?

Craig
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jccarterjr

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Re: The Bible "clearly states??"
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2012, 02:59:14 PM »

I think I put it in my hello in another forum discussion, but I found this site over a year ago and got what I needed from it then.

You see I was living in sin with a non believer. I felt a call to get back to church and I went to a small one because I had developed a repulsion to organized religion, so my logic (which was proved wrong) said go to a smaller church to find less of the big bad message that had plagued my spiritual development.

I was told the whole unequally yoked thing and what I found here I saw to be true. While I found truth in what Ray had to say on that subject, I also know that no man is infallible, even me.I am married to that woman now. Happily married. She still chooses not to believe, but I believe the scripture that says the wife is sanctified by the husband. So it was Ray that led me to marry an unbeliever by embracing the last commandment of Christ. Love even your enemy as you love yourself.

Christ said if you are not for me you are against me. My wife is not for Christ, but I love her more than anyone who is not my son. She learns from my example of what a Christian is. A man who loves his wife enough to reject one of the most popular falsehoods of his faith. A man who challenges that false hood everyday he is married to his wife. A man who lives Christ commandment  to love his enemy. I would sacrifice my life for wife with out thought. I face persecution daily for marrying an unbeliever and I face that persecution from people who profess to be Christians.

So following the truth I found in Rays words gave me the strength to challenge everything I was ever taught. So yeah I have read his stuff.

Any other questions?
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Craig

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Re: The Bible "clearly states??"
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2012, 03:15:30 PM »

Quote
Any other questions?

Yes, have you comprehended anything that Ray has taught?

I think not, because all of your posts so far attest to this.  I am left with 2 opinions. 
1) You say you have read and studied the teachings that the forum is about, and you do not understand them.
2) You have not really read anything and you lie.

Now I will give the benefit of the doubt and assume you don't understand.  Please read the teachings before posting.  It will be better for everyone.

Craig
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jccarterjr

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Re: The Bible "clearly states??"
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2012, 03:22:37 PM »

When I filled out my questionnaire I said I was seeking the truth. I said that while I found truth in one of Rays teachings that had a profound effect on my life that I find the the last commandment of Christ covers it all all. I think Ray would agree with me. I do however do not appreciate being attacked in the way you have just attacked me.

I hold that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and that there is but one way to the father. Jesus Christ.

I hold that Christs last commandment is to love even my enemy as I love myself. I don;t want enemies. I don;t look for enemies. I am not trying to be your enemy. 

Ask Ray if I have it wrong, but don't speak for him. That is rude.
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: The Bible "clearly states??"
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2012, 03:35:16 PM »


Hi jccarterjr

I was listening to a pastor who had been studying for many years and he was relaying that the use of the word perish in this verse in the original text translates to cease to exist. It sounded correct and I have asked others of faith who have studied such things and they seemed to have no problem with that interpretation. I am interested in truth no matter what the source. The answers are not in one place but anyplace God chooses to speak to us.


Do you have any objection to what Ray says, quote :
 
PERISHED: Can a person perish and still be saved? Of course. Even "righteous" men can perish,

"All things have I seen in the days of my vanity: there is a JUST MAN that PERISHES in his righteousness, and there is a wicked man that prolongs his life in his wickedness" (Ecc. 7:15).

One more,

"The RIGHTEOUS PERISHES, and no man lays it to heart..." (Isa. 57:1).

Perishing is not something that can cut off God’s arm of salvation. http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html





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jccarterjr

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Re: The Bible "clearly states??"
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2012, 03:39:24 PM »

Right and John 3:16 clearly sates whoever shall believe in HIM shall not perish. You can be righteous and not believe.

I also agree that once you accept salvation and truly believe in HIM, you will not perish and have everlasting life.

If you don't believe in him however, well you perish. I am just reading the book.
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Samson

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Re: The Bible "clearly states??"
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2012, 03:51:47 PM »

When I filled out my questionnaire I said I was seeking the truth. I said that while I found truth in one of Rays teachings that had a profound effect on my life that I find the the last commandment of Christ covers it all all. I think Ray would agree with me. I do however do not appreciate being attacked in the way you have just attacked me.

I hold that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and that there is but one way to the father. Jesus Christ.

I hold that Christs last commandment is to love even my enemy as I love myself. I don;t want enemies. I don;t look for enemies. I am not trying to be your enemy. 

Ask Ray if I have it wrong, but don't speak for him. That is rude.


Actually the Bible does not say Love your Enemy as Yourself, it says Love Your Neighbor as yourself. The Greek word is Agape too, not the Kind of Love(Philia) that Jesus has for His Brothers, His Chosen Elect. We love(Agape) Our Enemies by treating them better than they deserve and being kind to them, even when they are unkind to Us. An Enemy could even be a Relative.

Mat 5:43  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Mat 22:37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38  This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF.
Mat 22:40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

You were confusing Matthew. 5:44 with Matthew. 22:39 or combining them.

Also, the Word Perish or destroy comes from the Greek Word Apollumi which literally means " to Lose," or "Lost" just like when Jesus said He came save that which was LOST(Greek-Apollumi).

Thanks, Samson.

Additional update due to Modification found below.

Apollumi: Lose, Lost, Destroy, Ruin.
    Matt. 10:28 ( Fear Him who is able to DESTROY)
    Matt. 18:11 ( Came to Save that which was LOST)
Not even one, zero, not some, not any, not at all any ) should perish (Gk. apollumi - perish, destroy, lose) but that all (Gk. Pas - all, as many as.  We can take that out, forget the word all, you don‘t need it.  Put ‘that they,’ who? Anybody who doesn’t come under the category of none) should come to repentance.”

Are you following this?  This is all based on the negative.  How many that don’t come under the category of none, not any, not any man, not any woman, not any thing, none whatsoever, nothing.  Now if you are not in that category, you are going to come to repentance and not have a destiny of perishing or perished - apollumi.  How many is that?  Everyone does not come under the mē, the none, so it includes everyone.  Therefore the “all” in that verse is everyone who is not included in the “any,” and that’s EVERYONE!

Now we understand that all humanity is in a state of ‘apollumi,’ sometimes.  Because apollumi meaning destroy, perish or lose.  All mankind are lost, so it’s not talking about in this lifetime that no one will ever be destroyed or die or be perished or not be spiritually lost, as their destiny, because this life time they do.  But ultimately our destiny for everyone, is to be unperished or lost.  None, because the negative here proves it.  If there is even one that comes under that category, it can’t come under that category, because that category doesn’t include anyone, it’s a negative, no one.  He’s not willing that anyone, no one be perishing or lost forever.  There again the apollumi, Christ said I’ve come to save those that are apollumi.  When the scripture say, “the Lord is not slack,”  is there any room for slackness?  No.  A little slackness?  No.  No slackness at all.  When He says, “…is not willing that any should perish,”  it proves the positive side.  The negative proves the positive.[/color]
 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 04:02:59 PM by Samson »
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Craig

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Re: The Bible "clearly states??"
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2012, 04:09:37 PM »

O.K Mr Carter, your posts have been scattered and all over the place.  I cannot tell if you are really trying to learn or if you just want to teach.  You say Ray has shown you to question, what answers did you find?  Most everything you post comes right out of Babylon.  I cannot tell if you are sincere or just here to cause trouble.  Whatever the reason, we don't require you to believe anything Ray has taught or even require you to read the teachings.  But you do need to follow the rules that you agreed to.

I think you should quit posting until you have more chance to familiarize yourself with the teaching we adhere to.  If you really study I believe you will find that it will sync with the scriptures.  After you've had a chance to study and decide whether you belong here you are free to ask questions of what you do not understand.

Right now you do not appear to understand much.  I wish you well in your journey and hope that you are being called to learn the truths of scripture.

Craig
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Craig

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Re: The Bible "clearly states??"
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2012, 04:29:51 PM »

I wanted to add this as a reminder to any new users.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4558.0.html
and
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3614.0.html

Hopefully for your understanding.
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: The Bible "clearly states??"
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2012, 06:01:59 PM »


Not only do some reject Jesus and perish, MOST reject Jesus and perish. But that is not the end. That is not their eternal destiny. The Greek word "apollumi" is the word translated "destroy," "lost," and "perish" in the King James Bible. All three are translated from this one Greek word, many times.  Appolumi is translated according to the context of a verse, hence: the sheep was LOST (it did not perish, nor was it destroyed, as it was later FOUND, but it was "apollumi" in that it was lost.  Those that enter into the "broad way that leads to DESTRUCTION" are also "apollumi"--destroyed.  And those who do not accept Jesus as their Saviour will also "apollumi," that is they will PERISH.  It's all the same condition. One can be lost in a fire, destroyed in a fire, or perish in a fire. Regardless, you loose your life.
 
But (and here comes the good news), Jesus came TO SAVE THAT WHICH WAS LOST [apollumi]" (Mark 18:11;  Luke 19:10).  Jesus Christ came for the express purpose of SAVING all those who are "apollumi"--LOST, DESTROYED, AND PERISHED!  There it is. Simple, huh?  One just needs to believe the Scriptures.

God be with you,

Ray http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2389.msg18745.html#msg18745
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