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Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Duane:
I was reading about Jesus in John 8; and came to verse 42, which INSTANTLY reminded me of Ray's article debunking the Trinity. Verse 42-- "Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I p-r-o-c-e-e-d-e-d forth and came from God; nor have I c-o-m-e o-u-t of MYSELF, but He sent me".
Ray teaches that Jesus was GOD the Father's FIRST CREATION! So I wanted to see HOW it was handled by the translations.
Needing TWO WITNESSES, the other "witness" was supplied by Revelation 3:14 (CLV) "and to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and GOD'S C-R-E-A-T-I-V-E: ORIGINAL."
(God's "creative: ORIGINAL" would transverse to "God's ORIGINAL creation"--- meaning JESUS!)
So how did the KJV, NIV, CLV translate the SAME verse?
(KJV) "...beginning of the creation of God" (Okay)
(NIV)"...the ruler of God's creation" (huh?)
(CLV)"...for OUT OF GOD I came forth.. (perfectly clear)
My topic of discussion surrounds HOW fundamentals take HEATED UMBRAGE of the notion that Jesus was CREATED by His Father! (surprise?--the father created the son??) INSISTING that Jesus (of the Trinity) ALWAYS WAS "PART of God" -- so NEVER created! Always was!!
The translations CLV--out of God I came forth --is implying a "birth" or "creation" from WITHIN the Father.
Such as I would say "out of my Mother, Ruth Gevert, I "came forth"--.
BUT the NIV would say of me "Duane was ruler of his families creation"!
the KJV would say of me "Duane was the beginning of the creation of Ruth" (literally accurate)
The confusion confirms my POST titled: "The Bible clearly says??" Now anyone reading the KJV would not necessarily
pause to think that the Bible was stating that "Jesus WAS the FIRST CREATION OF GOD" but would read "right over it" thinking "yes, Jesus did create the world and managed it in Eden" and never "get" that it was JESUS that was CREATED!
Anyone reading the NIV wouldn't "have a clue" about Jesus's ORIGIN at all! Jesus was "just a ruler of God's creation"!
So NEVER wonder WHY we "B-T'ers" get severely criticized for our Biblical viewpoints BECAUSE even though Ray's observation and research of the un-Trinity was ACCURATE and "right on the money" the translations used by "fundamentalists" sure DIDN'T help THEIR understanding at all--it just made US hated and "heretics" for believing Ray--
and ORIGINAL GREEK TRANSLATION (CLV)! Sad---comments?
santgem:
Greetings!
Jesus is eternal when God is alone...........
Kat:
Santgem, I do not understand your comment. When is Jesus ever alone?
John 8:16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.
John 10:30 I and My Father are one."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Farlsborough:
It's funny (and it's not an answer to your question, sorry) but...
I am less and less of the opinion that belief in the trinity (or not) matters at all! I see what Ray says about it. I see what orthodox theologians say about it. I flip between the two ;D
Orthodoxy says that the Father, the Spirit and Jesus are eternally distinct and equal.
Ray says that the Father created the Son, nevertheless they are ONE, and the spirit (if I have got this right) is essentially the Father's power and outworking in the world.
They both believe "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." They both encourage obedience and worship to God (Father and Son) and, presumably, being open and welcoming to the works of the Spirit/spirit (even if you only believe this is the spiritual force of the Father).
It isn't idolatry to worship or bow before Christ. It's a good idea to pray to be filled with God's spirit.
I'm sorry if this is heresy on here (seen as you guys are heretics in the eyes of many, does that make it double heresy, like double jeopardy? ;)), but of all the things that really DO make a difference to how we relate to God and to others (eternal hell, most of all, but also free will), I cannot bring myself to get worked up about it. God is divinely reasonable. Can you imagine Him adding to your "aeonian chastisement" simply because you intellectually assented to the belief in Christ's eternal existence rather than original creation? I can't. I think it will be more like, "...oh! That's how it is. Thanks."
And can you be a trinitarian and still enter the kingdom of God? I suspect you can.
John from Kentucky:
There is One God.
There are not three gods.
There are not two gods (a father god and a Jesus god).
One God.
The Father and Jesus together are One God. 1 Cor. 8:6 They are not separate..
Jesus was not created. He came forth from God. Jesus was the Creator.
Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God. Col 1:15
The Father and Jesus are different aspects of One God.
But as Paul said, not everyone knows this. But everyone will know the True God at their appointed time.
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