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Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
jojoross:
What about this:
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ: and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God (the Father).
and...
Col 1:15 Who (Christ) is the image (not God but the image) of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him (Christ) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Seems like this verse is saying God the Father is ahead of Christ and that Christ is firstborn of every creature?
I always get confused with these verses...
Gods Peace,
Jordan
Kat:
Hi Farlaborough,
Well the thing is what they teach about the Trinity is not true, there is not 3 equal being in the Godhead. No matter how insignificant this may sound to you this inaccuracy just leads to confusion and builds a false understanding of who/what God is. That is not good! And there is going to be accountability for that.
Mat 12:36 But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.
But everybody will not be held to the same degree of punishment/stripes, it varies from person to person according to the intention in their heart in a matter.
Now another thing, Christ clearly stated that His Father is greater.
John 14:28 You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I. (2nd witness John 10:29)
But then there is the Scripture where it's stated that Christ is equal to God...
Php 2:6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, (NKJV)
Notice it is "equal to God," this is likely the Godly divinity that gave Him a spiritual existence...
G2316 theos: a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].
He certainly was equal to the Father in divinity, but as the next verse states, until He became flesh and "emptied Himself" of that divinity that made Him a Spirit Being, so then He could die.
Php 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men; (ASV)
He knew and stated that the Father was greater than He was, so there is no trinity or a Bitheism either, which is 2 distinct Gods. The Father and Son are one, this does not mean 2 in totally united, but as in connected, inseparable.
John 10:30 I and My Father are one.
John 10:38 ...believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."
John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Dave in Tenn:
--- Quote from: Farlsborough on August 14, 2014, 11:09:31 AM ---It's funny (and it's not an answer to your question, sorry) but...
I am less and less of the opinion that belief in the trinity (or not) matters at all! I see what Ray says about it. I see what orthodox theologians say about it. I flip between the two ;D
Orthodoxy says that the Father, the Spirit and Jesus are eternally distinct and equal.
Ray says that the Father created the Son, nevertheless they are ONE, and the spirit (if I have got this right) is essentially the Father's power and outworking in the world.
They both believe "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." They both encourage obedience and worship to God (Father and Son) and, presumably, being open and welcoming to the works of the Spirit/spirit (even if you only believe this is the spiritual force of the Father).
It isn't idolatry to worship or bow before Christ. It's a good idea to pray to be filled with God's spirit.
I'm sorry if this is heresy on here (seen as you guys are heretics in the eyes of many, does that make it double heresy, like double jeopardy? ;)), but of all the things that really DO make a difference to how we relate to God and to others (eternal hell, most of all, but also free will), I cannot bring myself to get worked up about it. God is divinely reasonable. Can you imagine Him adding to your "aeonian chastisement" simply because you intellectually assented to the belief in Christ's eternal existence rather than original creation? I can't. I think it will be more like, "...oh! That's how it is. Thanks."
And can you be a trinitarian and still enter the kingdom of God? I suspect you can.
--- End quote ---
I won't claim to take responsibility for who will be in the kingdom. That isn't my call and my opinion is not required by the One who made these decisions.
That said, "trinitarianism" is not on the surface and by itself the most evil way of looking at God. Few of us talk about the real meat and truth of what Ray was saying...and it's not so much a hypothetical or theological truth about GOD, but about how WE fit in there. The very title of the article: Is God a Closed Trinity or an Expanding Family. That ought to tell us what was most in Ray's mind when he wrote and had it posted on B-T.
It is not just about refuting trinitariansim, though it does do that. It isn't even all about helping us grow to a better understanding of the relationship of Father and Son which started this whole shebang. Though it endeavors to do that as well. It's about 'relating' us to this Expanding Family.
The doctrine of 'Trinitarianism' never lets US into a family, but keeps us as 'subjects'. That's not what God has planned for us. It's ALL about family. Each in their own turn.
Jesus is FIRST among MANY BRETHREN. The entirety of the Scripture is 'about' "Let us be making mankind into Our image". That culminates (but doesn't end) with God being all in all."
lareli:
I would say that I relate to what Farlsborough said.. In my mind I would want to know more about how to do right instead of how to be right.
Scripture says we can know all the right answers and have all the mysteries of God known to us but still be nothing. We can know all this stuff and still miss the point.
The different things people believe about the trinity don't matter that much to me because either way it wouldn't change what God said I'm supposed to be doing.
Seek mercy, love justice, walk humbly with your God. Love your enemies. Be at peace with all men so long as it depends on you. Treat others as more important than yourself. Love your neighbor as yourself. Love God with all your strength.
I believe what Kat said about believing in the wrong thing leading to confusion... But I think believing in the wrong thing is different than acknowledging that you don't know the answer. There's lots of things that I would put in the "I don't know" box, the trinity being one of them. None of these things would change what it is I'm supposed to be doing though.
rick:
In the end, it’s about having an accurate knowledge of God and ourselves. For those who are being call now are learning both who God is and who they are and why God made His creation in spiritual weakness.
For those who God calls not, does it matter what they believe ? The day will come when no man shall say know the Lord for the knowledge of the Lord will fill the earth.
Everyone will have an accurate knowledge of God and learn to do righteousness in the end.
And you the reader have no say...............you will be saved because its God’s ( Will ) that ( All ) men be saved , this also includes ( All ) women too.
All men plus all women equals everyone. :)
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