> General Discussions
Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
lilitalienboi16:
Is there a verse that explicitly states Jesus was created?
I know there is the verse that states He is the first born of the creation but that doesn't necessarily mean He was created. Only that He is born first much like we must be BORN AGAIN to enter the kingdom.
Also, being the beginning of the creation of God still doesn't imply you are created.
I do believe Christ came out of the Father and has a beginning, what I'm trying to understand is if there is a difference between coming out of God and being created by God.
I think coming out of God would imply that you were always a part of God were as being created by God, you are outside and not God yet but will be incorporated into God later.
I'm just kind of rambling, feel free to chime in. Thought I'd give this whole thread a shot ;)
God bless,
Alex
Kat:
Here are a few places Ray spoke on this.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11521.msg99627.html#msg99627 ---------
If Jesus were ‘just a man’ why did He need to be conceived by the Holy Spirit of God at all? Why couldn’t He be JUST a normal Jewish boy born to a normal Jewish mother AND FATHER? Why? Why did He need to be more than ‘just a man?’ Why did He need to be a SPECIAL DIVINE MAN?
If Jesus Christ were nothing but a human being He did not have to be conceived by God, He did not have to empty Himself, He did not have to be made lower than an angel so He could die. All men die. Just pay attention to the words.
Mr. Buzzard has a footnote on page 191 where he makes a comment from a dictionary about Revelation 3:14 where it says Jesus Christ is “the beginning of the creation of God.” Concordant translates it “God's Creative Original." Now that is a profound Scripture, I mean that’s one of those really profound Scripture. That is not a false translation or anything.
Rev 3:14 …write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Jesus Christ the “beginning of the creation of God.” He is “the beginning.”
Col 1:16 for in Him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through Him, and unto Him;
He is the beginning and the beginner, all things were created through Him.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12075.0.html ------------------------
Look at I Cor. 8:6 again. Notice that it does not say, "But to us there is but one God, the Father." (Period). Nor does it say, "One Lord Jesus Christ." (Period). There is more to consider. Is this verse saying that "God the
Father" is the ONLY God," and that Jesus, therefore cannot also be "God?"
For sure Jesus can't be HIS OWN FATHER, but can Jesus also be "the ONE God?" Look at that first statement again, as it IS in the Scripture as I will re-emphasize the words to make this one point: "But to us there is but ONE God, the Father, OF WHOM ARE ALL THINGS." There is only One God, the Father, OUT OF Whom ALL IS" (Concordant Literal New Testament and The Emphatic Diaglott).
Then concerning Jesus we read: "One Lord Jesus Christ, BY Whom are all things." "Of" and "by" are two different words--"of" is applied to the Father, where as "by" is applied to the Son. Actually the word "by" is better translated "through," but that doesn't change the fact that they are different and are applied to different actions. (See Rotherham's emphasized Bible, The Emphatic Diaglott, and The Concordant Literal New Testament for verification of the word "through").
All creation is "OF" God the Father, but since Jesus was also created, not all creation is OF Jesus. But the act of creation is attributed to Jesus (See I Collosians, etc.), hence it is "through" Jesus that all the things of creation
are brought into existence by or "through" Jesus Christ.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.msg27962.html#msg27962 ------
John 13:3 "and that HE CAME FROM GOD”... that’s where Jesus came from, GOD. Not from the Godhead, not from the Trinity, FROM GOD.
John 16:27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I CAME OUT FROM GOD. (Just like Eve came out from Adam)
v. 28 I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER, and have come into the world.
1 John 4:9 In this the love of God was revealed in us, because GOD SENT HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON into the world that we might live through Him.
v. 14 And we have seen and testify that THE FATHER SENT THE SON to be the Savior of the world.
Heb 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom HE HAS APPOINTED heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds,
If Jesus Christ was part of a triune god, a trinity, then nobody’s appointed anybody, nobody is sending anybody. There is not one greater authority in a perfect equilateral triangle. But Christ said, My Father is greater than I, (John 14:28).
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
The beginning was the Word of God, what did God began with? Jesus Christ, right? The Word, that’s what God began with, Jesus Christ is the beginning.
In Gen. 1:1 it says, “In the beginning[ Heb: reshiyth - spec. Firstfruits] God [Heb: Elohim] created the heavens and the earth”
We read in 1 Cor 15:20 But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the Firstfruit of those who slept.
That Jesus Christ “became the Firstfruit of those who slept.” Who is the Firstfurit? JESUS CHRIST.
Where did Jesus come from: John 7:29; John 13:3; John 9:42; John 16: 27-28; 1 John 4:9, 14.
Jesus was created by the Father; Heb 1:2; Rev 3:14. Jesus Christ was created and than became the Creator of all. So when you talk about Jesus Christ, you are talking about God. But you are talking about the One who was begotten in the God family, and one who could be emptied and formed such as a man.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
lilitalienboi16:
Thank you Kat,
So it seems like the only place that really puts the word CREATE and Jesus together, as in He is created by God, is in Revelations 3:14?
Look at the Young's translation for this however;
(RYLT-NT) 'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things says the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the chief of the creation of God;
Here is the ISV
(ISV) "To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator of God's creation, says this: "
If everything is out of the Father and through Jesus, then these translations make sense in light of that concept. Though I don't know how I feel about saying Christ is the originator as we know the Father to be so. However, young's is interesting.
My whole curiousity with Christ being created by the Father has nothing to do with whether He came forth from the Father and existed before He became man. I know that He did come forth from the Father and existed before He emptied Himself of His devinity.
My curiousity is with the word CREATE vs BRING FORTH or CAME OUT OF. God CREATED the heaven's and the earth, He didn't BRING FORTH these things out of Himself. As ray put, **there are two words, creating' and 'forming'. One is an original 'substance' (for lack of a better word) and the other is 'formed' out of something that already existed. ** Thank you dave for the correction!
So I was wondering, does the same apply to Christ? Was Christ CREATED or was he MADE from the Father? As in the Father took a piece of Himself and therefor it would really make sense that Christ is God, that He and the Father are one but that the Father is GREATER than He. Christ was never created then, in that sense, but He does have a beginning and He did come forth from the Father.
Does that make sense what I'm saying? That's why I wanted to find a verse that really NAILED the "Christ was 'CREATED' part."
Feel free to contribute or refute me or whatever. I'm not trying to teach, just trying to come to a better understanding of all this. I forget things sometimes so maybe I'm forgetting a verse here that would completely dismantle my little idea.
God bless,
Alex
Dave in Tenn:
Ah, Alex. But He DID bring forth the heavens and the earth out of Himself.
The different words in Genesis relate to 'creating' and 'forming'. One is an original 'substance' (for lack of a better word) and the other is 'formed' out of something that already existed. That's a poor 'explanation', but I am having significant problems typing into web-forms at the moment. ;D
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on August 14, 2014, 09:28:19 PM ---Ah, Alex. But He DID bring forth the heavens and the earth out of Himself.
The different words in Genesis relate to 'creating' and 'forming'. One is an original 'substance' (for lack of a better word) and the other is 'formed' out of something that already existed. That's a poor 'explanation', but I am having significant problems typing into web-forms at the moment. ;D
--- End quote ---
Oh yes, thank you dave for the correction! Let me make that change hehe.
Then I suppose if this is true there is no difference between creating and bringing forth. My idea still holds merit as now the two words are inclusive rather than exclusive to one another, right? lol
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