> General Discussions
Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
Kat:
Alex, I do not believe you will find a Scripture that nails this down... this is a conundrum, not meant to be made obvious to the world. But we can get answers by searching the "sum of your word is truth" (Psalms 119:160).
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
I think that the main point here is that the Son was brought forth FIRST. He was first so that by and through Him the Father would do everything concerning this creation.
v. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
The Son is what the Father brought forth of Himself, as God of this creation. He is not a separate being, a creation apart from the Father, He is brought forth - came out, had existence where before He did not.
v. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
v. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
The Son is the Father's voice and He is the Father's image, not another being representing the Father, He is very much a part of the Father. He is what the Father brought forth/made/created whatever you want to call it, of/from Himself that He did not already have, like an extended part of Himself. That's how He could say...
John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."
John 10:30 I and My Father are one.
mercy peace and love
Kat
Joel:
I don't see anywhere in the scriptures that God has given us called the Bible where anything was ever created before the Word.
There are many scriptures in the Old, and New Testaments that speak of God sending the Word, or the Word of God came to so and so.
God brought forth his creative Spiritual Word who knows how long ago? And then the Spiritual Word was made flesh a little over two thousand years ago that we all know now as The Lord Jesus Christ.
Joel
Farlsborough:
--- Quote from: Dave in Tenn on August 14, 2014, 01:34:14 PM ---
It is not just about refuting trinitariansim, though it does do that. It isn't even all about helping us grow to a better understanding of the relationship of Father and Son which started this whole shebang. Though it endeavors to do that as well. It's about 'relating' us to this Expanding Family.
The doctrine of 'Trinitarianism' never lets US into a family, but keeps us as 'subjects'. That's not what God has planned for us. It's ALL about family. Each in their own turn.
Jesus is FIRST among MANY BRETHREN. The entirety of the Scripture is 'about' "Let us be making mankind into Our image". That culminates (but doesn't end) with God being all in all."
--- End quote ---
So Dave, how is what you believe different from A) the Mormons who believe we will (or can) be Gods ourselves eventually, or B) Hindus who's aim is ultimately to be obliterated/joined into God in one big swirling spiritual unity? Do you believe we will be literally the same beings as Christ, with the only difference being the spiritual medal or "brownie points" He got for volunteering to be the saviour of the world?
santgem:
--- Quote from: Kat on August 14, 2014, 08:33:21 AM ---
Santgem, I do not understand your comment. When is Jesus ever alone?
John 8:16 And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.
John 10:30 I and My Father are one."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Hello Kat,
Greetings!
When there is nothing except God, Jesus is eternal.
When there is nothing except God, that God is the "I AM"
When there is nothing except God, the Word was with God
When there is nothing except God, the Word was God.
I am the Alpha and the Omega -- the Beginning and End -- the First and the Last. Rev 22:13
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;this one was in the beginning with God; Jhn 1:1-2
How is it that both God the Father and Jesus be the First and the Last, because Jesus is God, and Jesus is the "I AM" and Jesus is the Word.
How come that Jesus is eternal, He is eternal when Jesus was with God, when He was the Word with God, when there was nothing except God.
who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages, 2Ti 1:9
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.Tit 1:2-4
To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.Jde 1:25
In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth --Gen 1:1
Now the misunderstanding(confusion) comes out when.............
The Word with God comes out from (God)Father
for the Father himself doth love you, because me ye have loved, and ye have believed that I from God came forth;I came forth from the Father, and have come to the world; again I leave the world, and go on unto the Father.'Jhn 16:27-28
When in a certain situation say certain time that the "WORD" comes out from God, that "Word" has now It's beginning, that is the beginning when the Word with God comes out from God.
There is now a so called Father and Son because the Father begotten the Son. That God which is alone before becomes the Father to a Son. The Father is God and also the Son is God. They are both God. The Son now has a beginning when He comes out from the Father. The Father is eternal, the Word is eternal when there is still nothing except God.
When the Word becomes a man and when the Word comes out from the Father, then you can now explain very well these passages;
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ: and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God (the Father).
Col 1:15 Who (Christ) is the image (not God but the image) of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him (Christ) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: Kat on August 14, 2014, 09:46:48 PM ---
Alex, I do not believe you will find a Scripture that nails this down... this is a conundrum, not meant to be made obvious to the world. But we can get answers by searching the "sum of your word is truth" (Psalms 119:160).
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
I think that the main point here is that the Son was brought forth FIRST. He was first so that by and through Him the Father would do everything concerning this creation.
v. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
The Son is what the Father brought forth of Himself, as God of this creation. He is not a separate being, a creation apart from the Father, He is brought forth - came out, had existence where before He did not.
v. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
v. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
The Son is the Father's voice and He is the Father's image, not another being representing the Father, He is very much a part of the Father. He is what the Father brought forth/made/created whatever you want to call it, of/from Himself that He did not already have, like an extended part of Himself. That's how He could say...
John 14:7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."
John 10:30 I and My Father are one.
mercy peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
Very interesting Kat. Thank you.
I am in agreement that Christ was brought forth from the Father, though it's interesting to me JOHNFROMKENTUCKY in his post stated that Jesus was NOT created. Perhaps BROUGHT FORTH, though it means the same as CREATED, is more accurate in that this is how the scriptures describe Jesus' coming into existence? John your input would be welcome here.
Your final statement was very enlightening to me. I found this particularly helpful in my understanding;
"The Son is what the Father brought forth of Himself, as God of this creation. He is not a separate being, a creation apart from the Father, He is brought forth - came out, had existence where before He did not."
I think it goes nicely with what John also said; "The Father and Jesus are different aspects of One God."
Very interesting to see how this discussion has evolved over time. I appreciate the clarifications. I think I am in agreement with you guys now.
God bless,
Alex
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