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Jesus: "the CREATED of the Father"
lilitalienboi16:
--- Quote from: santgem on August 24, 2014, 11:45:01 AM ---
Hello Kat,
Greetings!
Actually Dennis is right in his definition in a being " a being is an entity that lives. A being does not need to human".
--- Quote ---The Father is not a being, so He made/created a part of Himself to be a Being just for this creation.
--- End quote ---
In order for us to be on the same page i assumed when you said that the Father is not a being is like that he is not created and he is eternal. That in that case that i believe that when God bring forth YHWH he is also not a "being" or not created.
continuing;
--- Quote ---Santgem, so you do not think that Jehovah, the God we know in the OT, that He is not a Being? Well we do have Scripture that show He certainly always was in the image of a man, therefore a Being.
Ezekiel saw visions of God and there was great detail in the vision that came to him and it was a "likeness with the appearance of a man" that appeared to him in a whirlwind.
Eze 1:26 And above the firmament over their heads was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like a sapphire stone; on the likeness of the throne was a likeness with the appearance of a man high above it.
v. 27 Also from the appearance of His waist and upward I saw, as it were, the color of amber with the appearance of fire all around within it; and from the appearance of His waist and downward I saw, as it were, the appearance of fire with brightness all around.
v. 28 Like the appearance of a rainbow in a cloud on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the brightness all around it. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. So when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard a voice of One speaking.
--- End quote ---
let us hear from the God's words.
Numbers 12:6 And the LORD said to them, “Now listen to what I say:“If there were prophets among you,I, the LORD, would reveal myself in visions. I would speak to them in dreams.
7But not with my servant Moses.Of all my house, he is the one I trust.8I speak to him face to face,
clearly, and not in riddles!He sees the LORD as he is.
The Lord show himself in a vision and be able to take in any form as he wishes. He is sending messengers either in the form of a man, angel voice etc. I do not believe that Abraham and Jacob actually see God.
We are not to believe that when The Lord manifested himself as a human that he made himself of no reputation in the OT.
The realization of the Lord being in the flesh is when he "Phl. 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men"
--- End quote ---
Hi Santgem,
I don't think Kat is saying that Jesus appeared as flesh and blood when He appeared to Moses or that He is in anyway flesh and blood but rather that He has the "form" or "likeness" of a man. If He is the image of God that we as humans are to behold in order to understand God the Father, and in fact God, it would make sense that this image would be in a form that we can relate to.
I don't claim to have the answers or who is right or wrong, but I certainly see this idea as being possible and the scriptures seem to imply this, though again, it is the SUM of the Word that is truth and in a subject as deep and profound as this one, we might not be looking at the totality of the scriptures on this matter. I would imagine such an exposition would take up pages upon pages of individual scripture just to lay it all down, let alone explain it.
Either way, I find this discussion to be very edifying as I am reminded of old things and seeing new things as well.
God bless,
Alex
John from Kentucky:
This thread is proof of everlasting life. It won't die. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Ray said in his April 2, 2011 message that his previous writings about the nature of God and Jesus were incomplete in that he (Ray) did not bring together all the Scriptures on this subject.
Everything quoted from Ray's writings and videos about this subject are before his April 2, 2011 message.
Therefore, it was Ray himself who acknowledged his previous teachings on this subject are not complete.
Ray's message of April 2, 2011 has been removed from the B-T website. I believe it was wrong to do so. But God will judge.
Ray is not Jesus. Ray's teachings are not Scripture. What I respected about Ray was his adherence to God's Word and respect for it. And his courage to rethink a subject to see if it truly conformed to the Scriptures. I talked with Ray a few times in person and several times over the telephone. Ray's respect for God's Scriptures is what stood out to me.
In one of our conversations I told Ray that I didn't think the majority of members of the B-T Forum would accept where he was headed with this Enigma/Nature of God subject. Ray told me we must all follow where the Spirit of God leads us.
Since, Ray brought this matter up, I've been studying all the Scriptures I could find on this subject. I asked God to teach me because I want to know all there is about Him. What He truly is.
God has showed me that He is One. There are not two, or three of them. Only One God, Who is unique and special and unlike anything we can imagine. Who can appear before Abraham under the terenbith trees of Mamre, and as an actual human being on the earth and be killed, and at the same time be beyond the heaven of heavens because nothing can contain Him.
But it is apparent that there are not two of us who believe the same thing on this issue. It is a source of confusion. I am going to try and stay out of this discussion in the future.
Jesus tells us not to throw our pearls before someone who cannot appreciate value. Only God can bring understanding on this matter. God said the time will come when all will know Me (God) from the least to the greatest.
What a Great and Magnificent God He truly is. What a blessing that He is creating mankind in His image.
Dennis Vogel:
--- Quote ---Everything quoted from Ray's writings and videos about this subject are before his April 2, 2011 message.
--- End quote ---
I've said this before and I guess I have to say it again.
Ray was doing a LOT of pain medication the last year of his life. There were more than one post he wanted on the forum that I asked Craig not to post. He was not making sense.
I questioned Ray more than once at breakfast about this and he had no answers for my questions.
Ray was not always thinking right the last year of his life. He was confused much of the time. He was wrong about this.
He never figured this out because it contracted what he taught many years ago.
Dave in Tenn:
Dennis, I take your word that there may have been things Ray wanted posted that shouldn't have been. However, what HAS BEEN posted never 'contradicted' in the truest sense what preceded it. It only amplified it, refined it, explained it. That's my firm 'view' on the matter.
Hopefully, a comforting word. If any of our 'thoughts' on God have gone beyond seeing Him as a Trinity of equal parts or a six-foot man who happens to be invisible with a Son then you have "come out of" Sunday School...at least the one I went to. ;D
Dave in Tenn:
John, with respect. I don't take hear-say evidence into the court of my own thoughts. No matter how many conversations you had with Ray, it is still possible that you misunderstood and therefor are misrepresenting his thoughts, in part or in full. Having been guilty of that myself recently, I am fully aware it can be done.
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