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Author Topic: free-will. On abilities and skills...  (Read 2830 times)

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moshe

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free-will. On abilities and skills...
« on: March 09, 2012, 06:37:03 PM »

Have you ever heard when somebody have certain ability or skill for different things, like for example drawing or speaking new languages,that people say that they where born with that ability?

Me thinks that skillful individuals can simply  developed a greater capacity to learn faster than others; we have no free will, people don't do things without causes,. Can you imagine a person whom have never even learn a language and suddenly start singing extremely beautifully because he supposedly was born with it, or a person that doesn't even know how to take a pencil and suddenly start drawing masterpeaces?

I am aware from persons born with things like autism that sometimes can be able to developed their capacities extremely great, however, without the enough information and circumstances they wouldn't be able to develop great abilities and skills

    All kinds of chance encounters-- with particular people, information or circumstances-- have marked turning points in many individuals lives, whether toward fulfillment or ruin.
    None of these things is equal or can be made equal. If this is an injustice, it is not a "social" injustice because it is beyond the power of society. --unknown


let me know what you all think about people being born with certain abilities and skills...

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Samson

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Re: free-will. On abilities and skills...
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2012, 02:01:16 PM »

Have you ever heard when somebody have certain ability or skill for different things, like for example drawing or speaking new languages,that people say that they where born with that ability?

Me thinks that skillful individuals can simply  developed a greater capacity to learn faster than others; we have no free will, people don't do things without causes,. Can you imagine a person whom have never even learn a language and suddenly start singing extremely beautifully because he supposedly was born with it, or a person that doesn't even know how to take a pencil and suddenly start drawing masterpeaces?

I am aware from persons born with things like autism that sometimes can be able to developed their capacities extremely great, however, without the enough information and circumstances they wouldn't be able to develop great abilities and skills

    All kinds of chance encounters-- with particular people, information or circumstances-- have marked turning points in many individuals lives, whether toward fulfillment or ruin.
    None of these things is equal or can be made equal. If this is an injustice, it is not a "social" injustice because it is beyond the power of society. --unknown


let me know what you all think about people being born with certain abilities and skills...

Everything we have comes from God.  God gave certain ones skills and abilities that others do not have---All by His will and how He sees fit.

What most do not know is that God gave us our weaknesses and failures too--in order to mold and shape us.

Good and evil comes from God.  Everything was planned and mapped out before the creation of anything.  As the Potter so decided.



I pretty much agree with the above from JFK, People inherit certain Genetic Traits that give them an advantage in these areas. However, for whatever specific reason that God had planned, some people don't develop or use these abilities in a Professional sense. My Grandfathers were both Accountants in New York and My Dad majored in Accounting at Middlebury College in Vermont, but changed His major to Geology, but eventually chose to work in Sales Management for Standard Oil and Real Estate Sales, also was & is involved in the Stock Market game. His Mathematical Skills and Proficiency carried over in being good at handling money, but mostly in the personal home front area of Life. I definitely inherited the basic skill of being good with numbers, always doing my own Taxes, even in cases that included several schedules, IE- Itemized Deductions, Profit or Loss from Income, Schedule SE, amortization and Depreciation, etc.

None of the above makes Me special, it's just what God gave Me, yet I couldn't draw a decent picture if my Life depended on it. My Daughters are both Artistic, they might have receive that ability from My Mother or from someone else, but not directly from Me.

The you got these Guys that don't workout with exceptional Genetics; IE- Low Body Fat, Narrow waists, ripped Abdominals, Naturally wide Shoulders and their Diets suck. A good example in Bodybuilding is Former Mr. Olympia Sergio Oliva and the Youngest Mr. America ever, Casey Viator. Casey had a Sister that never worked out that had Muscular Calves and Thighs and they were Huge.

Of course it takes some attention in developing these abilities, but those that are blessed in these different areas are able to achieve at a much faster rate than those that don't have the predisposition in those areas. By the way, Sergio Oliva ate pizza and drank cola while training for the 1967 & 1968 Mr. Olympia and was one of the few people to ever beat Arnold Swartzenegger.

We aught to be Thankful for the Abilities that God gave Us, but even the desire to apply these inherited advantages comes from God. God gave Me long muscle bellies in My Arms, Chest, Thighs and Calves and average Lats, but I got shortchanged in the Abdominal area, no Genetics there,  ;).

I don't know if the above adds to what your looking for Moises, but it's definitely an interesting subject, Genetics, Talents, Environmental Causes and the Application Thereof.

Thanks, Samson.
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indianabob

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Re: free-will. On abilities and skills...
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2012, 03:16:51 AM »

Hey Brad,
I see what you are saying. Genetics counts
and God's gifts count.

I am lacking in most of these areas.
I was skinny when young and just got fat later, not much muscle.
I am not smart or talented in any particular area
I am really pleased and grateful to be in fellowship with you all.
here on the forum. It is easy for me to be grateful because I realize that it is not of me, but a gift of God.
So in some ways I am glad that I didn't have many talents or gifts to swell up my ego.
However I must confess that my Mom did impress upon me that I was special to her and that I could do much better than I had been doing if I would just try harder. I'm lazy mentally.
The final analysis of this situation is that God has blessed me with knowledge that I have not earned by my own effort and so I try to be considerate of those of you who have earned your knowledge by hard work.
I'm just really happy to be allowed to belong and to learn.

I'm really curious about what God will have me doing in the kingdom.
Do any of you wonder about that, considering your past???

Indiana bob
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Ireland

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Re: free-will. On abilities and skills...
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2012, 12:07:42 PM »

Good question Bob. I have often thought about that. It seems that our soul will be what makes us different from each other, so in our spiritual bodies maybe we will still have some of our present characteristics. It is hard for me to believe that we will have any of our present weaknesses etc., but maybe our correct thinking will be a part of who we are. The scriptures say "we will be as he is", so surely our mental capabilities will far exceed what we experience now :P (at least I hope so!).  I wonder if our abilities here will reflect some of our future work in the kingdom to come. Will people that are mechanical apply that somehow to their future occupation, and maybe some that are gifted in counseling apply that in some way? Any ideas?
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Revilonivek

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Re: free-will. On abilities and skills...
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2012, 12:36:23 PM »

According to the bible, they say We are in corrupted bodies right now. In Jesus' Kingdom, we must put on un corrupt bodies. I would guess that would mean, no more mental disorders no more diseases or sicknesses, no more restriction.  That would mean we would be all equals. No difference among one another. we just unite as one. we would have no reason to stereotype. We would realize we are part of one another and part of the whole self. I think every brain is unique to themselves, it represent who the spirit is.. it set them apart from sameness.  I think who you are- as a whole, that includes what you love to do, your mind that you know to be yourself, your identity will inherit to the un corrupted bodies. That is just a theory.

Bible just says with the new body- it will not be corrupted. They didn't say much of what would be inherited.. I'm just guessing.

Denise
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moshe

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Re: free-will. On abilities and skills...
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2012, 03:15:53 PM »

Are people born with certain abilities like painting and learning languages?

Either the answer is: ‘‘Yes they are born with them’’ or ‘‘NO, they develop them as they live their lives’’, we all can agree that those abilities come from God, since God created everyone and everything, even the circumstances to develop those abilities in the courses of our lives!

So I agree that: ‘‘Good and evil comes from God.  EVERYTHING WAS PLANNED AND MAPPED OUT BEFORE THE CREATION OF ANYTHING. As the Potter so decided.’’ (Directly, all good only comes from God himself).

So why should we even bother with this question? Is it even important?

I believe the answer could be able to help us understand a little bit more how does God predetermines things.
I have been told since I was a kid that I was born with the ability of drawing, and I used to take this comments for granted. Now that I can use my reasoning skills a little better, I am able to look back and remember about all the small and important turning points, influences, levels of focus while practicing and information that made me developed this ability. I don't feel proud about it (In comparison from other more talented people, my ability is very poor), also I had no free-choice about it, I was predestined for it since the beginning of the ages.

So here is where my main point regarding this question is focus. I am not talking about genetics or if people supposedly have hidden abilities that never where able to develop and there for we will never even know if they where there in the first place. My focus and what I am talking about is that every little moment since we were born, every emotion, every thought, every action and small or big circumstance, is what make us develop the capacity to learn faster certain abilities and these abilities had been caused already since the beginning of the world. 

"Through faith we understand that the worlds [ages] were framed [prepared] by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear [are visible]" (Heb. 11:3).

We are talking about invisible things, some people say that God supernaturally supply people with this invisible abilities when they are born, but I believe that this abilities where planned by God for us to have them since long time before we where even born, every action we make is the consequence of a great and long history of causes and consequences, it is way beyond our power and capacity to assimilate it, and THESE IS WHY EVERYTHING WE DO COULD NOT BE OTHERWISE, EVERYTHING HAPPEN IS AS IT’S SUPPOSED TO HAPPEN AND GOD IS NOT SURPRISED AT ALL ABOUT THE FUTURE. If we are going to believe about Predestination, we have to buy the whole package.

"In Whom [GOD] also we have obtained [‘obtained’ not ‘earned’] an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED [our ‘destiny’ was ‘pre’ arranged by God, not us] according to the PURPOSE OF HIM [not the free will, OF US!] Who WORKS ALL THINGS [EVERYthing] AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL [not OUR OWN WILL]" (Eph. 1:11).


So we live in a world governed by laws, it is a world of structures and a strange order; it is a beautiful work in process. Here is a quote from the paper ‘the myth of free will part A’’ that I believe influence me to come into this conclusions. If all power and ability comes from above and we all here in the forum can agree with it, for me these is something that worth’s our today online meeting.

                                                                              THE SOURCE OF ALL POWER

What do we learn from these verses? Are we to believe that for this particular event (the Crucifixion of our Lord), God supernaturally supplied Pilate with the power to perform his dirty work? Is that what we learn?

Pilate already KNEW that he possessed power—he told Jesus he possessed this power. He possessed it for some time, that’s how Pilate was sure that this power was available to him whenever he needed it. But from where did Jesus say Pilate’s power came from? "…from ABOVE." It ALWAYS COMES FROM ABOVE.

So, what about the ruler before Pilate? Did he have power? Where did that power come from? "…from ABOVE." And what about the neighboring cities, states, powers, countries and kingdoms? Where did THEIR power come from? "…from ABOVE." Where has all the power of every city, state, and nation, farm, company, household, and individual who has ever lived, come from? "…from ABOVE.

Where does all power in heaven and earth come from? "…from ABOVE." Therefore, man is subject to the power that enables him to do things, and as we have already seen, man has no power to do anything except what God has already determined that he WILL DO, and MUST DO.



Samson, thanks for your contribution. I have seen documentaries of people with exceptional abilities, and it is hard to believe that only the short life time of them had been enough to be able to develop those exceptional abilities. But God is the potter, and he knows and knew exactly how much pressure and information and exactly what circumstances does that person needed to develop the exceptional abilities.

These are unusual thoughts, but I am glad we can come here to share them, and try to go as deep as we can. 
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Kat

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Re: free-will. On abilities and skills...
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2012, 09:03:37 PM »


Hi Bob,

Quote
I'm really curious about what God will have me doing in the kingdom.
Do any of you wonder about that, considering your past???

This question intrigues me. I really thinks it's like what Ray was saying in his last paper, we are all unique.

http://bible-truths.com/WhyGodLovesYou.htm ----------------------------------------------

So each of us individually are "the creation of God." That being true, there must be a reason He created you as you. There is not one person on earth that is here by accident or unknown of by God. If God knows the number of hairs on your head (Matt. 10:30, which changes every time you brush your hair), then God knows a lot about you -- He knows EVERYTHING about you. Though similar, we are far from being "like" God, even though we are created in His image and likeness. In all categories of intelligence, God is far far superior to mankind, whether it be strength, knowledge, wisdom, virtue, etc.

So what is there about you individually that can be found in no other person? Why does God need you when He has so many billions of others? Surely there can be nothing in us individually that is lacking in all other persons on earth, is there? So why can we possibly be of such great value that God would die for us? each of us? What do you have that none other can fulfill?

And the answer is: Your "UNIQUENESS."

"Unique" is defined as: "Being the only one of its kind. Without an equal or equivalent, unparalleled." Whether you recognize yourself as being unique does not change the fact that you are, beginning with your very fingerprints. No two eyes are identical, nor teeth, or DNA. Every singer's voice is different. Every writer has his own unique phrasing. Every composer has unique features in his music. Every painter is unique. Each person walks with his own unique gait. Have you ever seen two identical sunsets? Are there really "identical twins?" Ask their husbands?

I'm sure we could go on for hours. Everyone is unique in God's eyes and therefore is important to God. God needs you as an individual just as much as He needs the whole human race collectively.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I think about this it seems to me that God has designed each and everyone of us to be exactly who we are. Each of His Elect are being created, by everything that happens and that they do throughout their lifetime to be unique individuals who will hold a certain place in the kingdom. We are developing a character and personality and will always remain with as and make us the unique individual we are. I believe in each of the Elect it will work out that we hold a certain position in the kingdom and each will be different in some ways and to some degree from the rest of the Elect, just like the body is various different parts. But the Elect is united as a whole to work together, just like the body, so in the end when the Elect are prepared God will have a group capable to fulfill any and every need that arises. But we will all be unitied together with the same desire of will, to do fully the will of the Father, because at that time the Elect will be born into the kingdom and receive fully of the Spirit and at that time, for the Elect, the carnal flesh will be gone and so will the desires and pulls of it.

So whatever God is developing in us, whether we know what it is or not, the Elect will be prepared to serve and obey fully, just like Christ did when He was on this earth. And like Paul said we can not possibly understand how that will be like now, because we have not experienced anything like it yet.

1Co 2:9  But as it is written:
       "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
       Nor have entered into the heart of man
       The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Joel

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Re: free-will. On abilities and skills...
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2012, 11:48:28 PM »

God for sure is the Master potter.
We don't choose what continent or what country we are born in.
Neither do we choose our race, wheather we are male or female, our parents, how long we are going to live either.

Jesus said that we didn't choose God, he chose us. We do have good, and evil to select from, but that also comes from God.
I also have some artistic abilities, and can remember as a child desiring the ability to be able to draw. I couldn't draw good at all before that day, and I think God granted me the desire of my heart at that young age.
He knows what each of us needs that helps us to cope with our ever day lives. I can see that everyone from day one are filling a spot in history, predestined by God before the foundation of the world.

Even those that have disabilities are here by the will of the Lord, and have a specific purpose that we are for the most part unaware of.

Joel
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: free-will. On abilities and skills...
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2012, 04:39:40 AM »



Dan 1:17  As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom


God given knowledge and skill in ALL learning AND wisdom, come to these four children after they were born.

Dan 9:22  And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

Gabriel informed Daniel that he was about to receive skill and understanding. Not that Daniel had this skill and understanding from birth.

Only Jesus had all things at birth for He is the Creator of all, through which all things come into being that is of the Father.

All things and all increase is from and of our source of wisdom and learning, skill and understanding. Whether in the DNA before birth or bequethed to us at any time in our life, only Jesus had all things at birth and just what did Jesus do with those skills? He did not become the best carpenter in Jerusalem....
 
Arc
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lderr

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Re: free-will. On abilities and skills...
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2012, 10:40:53 PM »

I believe we are born with a certain set of skills, which vary from one individual to the next. These are the result of genetics.  We are, in one respect, chemical machines. Stimuli (external influences) cause chemical changes within us, which in turn cause us to react.  The ability to: sing well; draw; paint; calculate; write; research etc. originates in the basic "wiring" you are born with. 
Of course, we can learn to enhance these skills or develop new ones but, at root, we are still limited by this "wiring".
As well as these skill sets, we are pre-wired with emotional biases also. This is demonstrated by everyone you know: the perpetually happy; the pessimist; the one with a short fuse; John Boehner (I couldn't resist that one).  As with skills, emotional states can be learned and altered by training. Or chemicals. 

That is what we are.

What we will be, when we are freed from this chemical wiring, remains to be seen. The scriptures say little.

My two cents.

Lewis
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Revilonivek

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Re: free-will. On abilities and skills...
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2012, 02:51:55 AM »

Maybe we get talents/skills after we follow a certain pattern in life  that gives us certain talents/skills.

Everything in life all around us follows a pattern of some sort. Everything has a mathematical pattern after all. Everything in the universe follow a pattern- It never fails. It is the connections we can change- I.E. Renewing of the mind. By doing that, WE just hop to a different pattern but it is still pattern we follow. Make sense? Everything, even nothing has a pattern. Scriptures say we are in God, and God is the potter. Patterns is what we follow that makes who we are. Maybe God is the life force that binds all things in this universe? Maybe? 

It's like Luke Sky walker or Yoda in Old Star Wars would say,  May the force be with you..

Denise
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