Red Dear People

[Deborah-Leigh]

http://io9.com/5893253/scientists-may-have-just-discovered-a-brand-new-species-of-human

[indianabob]

More interesting fairy tales to disprove creation.

Reconstructed Neander-valley man (1856) looks a lot like my neighbor.

Indiana Bob

http://io9.com/5893253/scientists-may-have-just-discovered-a-brand-new-species-of-human

[Revilonivek]

Here's an wiki article on the Red Deer People-

They think they're a separate humanoid species. Interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Deer_Cave_people

[indianabob]

Folks,
Please note in the following description of the technique that the scientist have to assume steady state disintegrations over millennia and that conditions today are as they always have been. (?) Therefore Carbon Dating is only feasible since the earliest available sample from some time after the "mythical" worldwide flood. The technique has been tracked for accuracy for only 60 years with peer review.

Also keep in mind that people who do science for a living are no better than our politicians or the priests of Christendom. You have to hold their feet to the fire in order to be assured that their facts are not fuzzy math.
Sincerely, Indiana bob

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating

Radiocarbon dating (sometimes simply known as carbon dating) is a radiometric dating method that uses the naturally occurring radioisotope carbon-14 (14C) to estimate the age of carbon-bearing materials up to about 58,000 to 62,000 years.[1] Raw, i.e., uncalibrated, radiocarbon ages are usually reported in radiocarbon years "Before Present" (BP), "Present" being defined as 1950. Such raw ages can be calibrated to give calendar dates. One of the most frequent uses of radiocarbon dating is to estimate the age of organic remains from archaeological sites. When plants fix atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2) into organic material during photosynthesis they incorporate a quantity of 14C that approximately matches the level of this isotope in the atmosphere (a small difference occurs because of isotope fractionation, but this is corrected after laboratory analysis[citation needed]). After plants die or they are consumed by other organisms (for example, by humans or other animals) the 14C fraction of this organic material declines at a fixed exponential rate due to the radioactive decay of 14C. Comparing the remaining 14C fraction of a sample to that expected from atmospheric 14C allows the age of the sample to be estimated.
The technique of radiocarbon dating was developed by Willard Libby and his colleagues at the University of Chicago in 1949. Emilio Segrè asserted in his autobiography that Enrico Fermi suggested the concept to Libby at a seminar in Chicago that year. Libby estimated that the steady state radioactivity concentration of exchangeable carbon-14 would be about 14 disintegrations per minute (dpm) per gram. In 1960, he was awarded the Nobel Prize in chemistry for this work. He demonstrated the accuracy of radiocarbon dating by accurately estimating the age of wood from a series of samples for which the age was known, including an ancient Egyptian royal barge of 1850 BC.[2][3]

[Stacey]

First, there were the Neanderthals, which were first discovered in Germany 150 years ago and have had a firm place in the public imagination ever since. Next, there were the Denisovans, whose remains were found in Siberian caves back in late 2010. Now, we can add the Red Deer People — so named because they hunted and cooked red deer, naturally enough — to this list of our evolutionary cousins.

All we really need to do is use our imagination and all these fun facts will fit nicely into place and we will see clearly how that we all came to be what we are today through millions and millions of millions of years of small incremental changes to the evolutionary state we are in now.

leme borrow a line from Ray used by Fester sometimes,

WHAT A CROCK!

[Deborah-Leigh]

We know that Noah's flood was NOT over the entire Earth.

There may be yet another separate humanoid species in between neanderthals and modern humans, who ate meat.

By faith, Abel offered God meat.

The Universe is e-x-p-a-n-d-i-n-g! God IS creating humanity in HIS image.

We do not doubt that the origin of all is God, the origin of species is of God. All is of God.

Arc

[Duane]

When scientists find these skulls (and then build a body around them), I often wondered what would happen if they found the skull of a horribly deformed man ie: the Elephant Man and made a whole new generation of species of humans around the skull
features proclaiming a "new man"! 
Would they assume that all men of that era were in that (freak) image??

[zvezda]

There may be yet another separate humanoid species in between neanderthals and modern humans, who ate meat.

the homo ergasters were the hungry meat eaters, they had powerful legs and were proficient hunters, but they probably were the precursor to the neanderthals:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13874671

The Universe is e-x-p-a-n-d-i-n-g! God IS creating humanity in HIS image.

i read that the universe is not really expanding, it's s---t---r---e---t---c---h---i---n---g. 
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=274
http://wmap.gsfc.nasa.gov/site/faq.html (the word "stretching" is used in quite a few items in this article)

even the bible uses the word stretching -
natah 5186: to stretch out, spread out, extend, incline, bend
http://concordances.org/hebrew/noteh_5186.htm
Job 9:8
NAS: Who alone stretches out the heavens
KJV: Which alone spreadeth out the heavens,
INT: stretches the heavens alone

Job 26:7
NAS: He stretches out the north over
KJV: He stretcheth out the north
INT: stretches the north over

Psalm 104:2
NAS: as with a cloak, Stretching out heaven
KJV: as [with] a garment: who stretchest out the heavens
INT: light A cloak Stretching heaven A curtain

Isaiah 44:24
NAS: of all things, Stretching out the heavens
KJV: that maketh all [things]; that stretcheth forth the heavens
INT: am the maker of all Stretching the heavens Myself

Isaiah 51:13
NAS: your Maker, Who stretched out the heavens
KJV: thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens,
INT: the LORD your Maker stretched the heavens and laid

Isaiah 66:12
NAS: Behold, I extend peace
KJV: the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace
INT: the LORD behold extend to her A river

Jeremiah 10:20
NAS: more. There is no one to stretch out my tent
KJV: are gone forth of me, and they [are] not: [there is] none to stretch forth my tent
INT: no more to stretch again my tent

Ezekiel 25:16
NAS: Behold, I will stretch out My hand
KJV: GOD; Behold, I will stretch out mine hand
INT: GOD behold will stretch my hand against

Zechariah 12:1
NAS: the LORD who stretches out the heavens,
KJV: the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens,
INT: declares the LORD stretches the heavens lays

how precise the bible is 

[indianabob]

Hi Deborah,
I don't know that the flood was not over the entire earth.
What has being a meat eater got to do with evolution of man?
I think it is more correct to say that by faith Abel offered blood,
the life is in the blood.
The rest I like.
Respectfully offered, Indiana bob

We know that Noah's flood was NOT over the entire Earth.

There may be yet another separate humanoid species in between neanderthals and modern humans, who ate meat.

By faith, Abel offered God meat.

The Universe is e-x-p-a-n-d-i-n-g! God IS creating humanity in HIS image.

We do not doubt that the origin of all is God, the origin of species is of God. All is of God.

Arc

[Dave in Tenn]

Re: the Flood.  It's a very long read.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8385.0.html

There are numerous problems with 'discussing' science.  I just want to mention one of them:  People who are are less familiar with what Ray had to say in Nashville may "think" he's teaching that science trumps/outweighs scripture.  That is absolutely NOT the case.  What science CAN do is trump/outweigh theology and bible-translations.  The very words of God are true.  The WHOLE COUNCEL of God is Truth.

Everybody has read (or says they have read) the rules of the forum in order to have been allowed to join.  Nobody is required to believe ANYTHING Ray teaches.  Everybody is free to attach as much importance to anything taught here by Ray or shared by a member as they see fit in their walk.  But just because this is the "off-topics" area does not mean that everything is open for debate.

I hope everybody understands.

[Stacey]

I just spent the last few hours reading http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8385.0.html

Although it was mentioned that the Neanderthals and the like were discussed, I didn't see where Ray taught or believed anything about humanoids at all. Maybe I missed it. Does he teach on it somewhere else?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Off Arc's topic but from the Nashville Conference

One particular part of  the conference that stood out to me was this,

There's more.  Down in the Gulf of Mexico there is a place called Eugene Island.  It's just this little island where they drill for oil.  They struck oil there about twenty years ago and they are pumping about twenty thousand barrels a day.  Finally it went down to about three thousand barrels a day and they're thinking we are about finished here, right.  Well what do you think happened?  It started filling up.  They are up to ten thousand barrels a day again. 

So the oil companies involved and the federal government had matching grants of five or ten million dollars or something like that.  So they sent geologies and sea divers and they went down there and started doing all kinds of experiments, because they were thinking what the hell is going on here.  They found out that there was new oil coming in to fill the reservoir that they had drained out. 

So you know they say that these are not renewable sources of energy, well they well may be.   Why do they call these fossil fuels in the first place?  Because they find bacteria in the oil, at least some of it.  So that is proof that this was once alive, this bacteria.  The truth of the matter is that they are finding bacteria thousands of feet down in the ground.  They don't know how it gets there, but it gets there, because there is bacteria thousands of feet in the ground.

About three or four years ago was the first I heard of this.  A Russian scientist said, 'I don't think oil comes from an organic source' and I don't either.  I'll tell you where oil comes from, the earth makes it.  The earth makes it's own oil, the earth makes it's own gold, the earth makes it's own diamonds and the earth makes it's own silver.  The earth manufactures it on the inside and spews it out.  The earth is like a living organism, it's like a giant manufacturing concern.  It manufactures everything.  Everything that is on the earth came out of the earth, I don't care if it's sulfur or a diamond the earth made it.  So I think the earth makes oil.


I've never believed that oil comes from dead dinosaurs. Don't know why, just never have. I had a interesting conversation with a man I was delivering to a drilling rig a long time ago. The conversation of seismic exploration came up. I asked him why do we need to keep going back to area's already explored for oil? He informed me that believe it or not, oil shows up in places that it never was before and that by going back over already explored area's we can and do find new oil.

That just goes along with everything Ray mentions above. The earth produces it, makes sense to me. 

[Stacey]

I read the emails JFK listed.

If the other humans were hunter/gatherers that didn't know how to till the ground, that alone certainly does not make them anything less than man or human like I would consider a Red Deer or Neanderthal to be IF they truly existed so, I have to ask, are we to believe that Red Deer People or Neanderthals were human or man? 

Ray used the word 'advanced' man in those emails JFK mentioned. Now I can see where advanced could mean to be smarter but does that also mean that the other humans, the less advanced ones were more ape like?

Forgive my ignorance please.  Surely all this has already been asked and answered a thousand times around here.

[Kat]

Hi Stacy,

Well I have wondered about this too. IMHO it seems to me that when God created Adam He was beginning the work of salvation there with him, as Adam is called the "first man."

1Co 15:45  And so it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul"...

I mean it just seems that God created this 'advanced man,' possibly capable of learning/understanding to a higher level... to comunnicate with God? So beginning with Adam and his descendants, as the physical start of His plan for salvation? As Christ is where He does His spiritually work.

v. 45 ...the last Adam was a life-giving Spirit.

Since you mentioned this, just thought I would share what I have come up with.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

This is a BEAUTIFUL Thread.

[Stacey]

Here's where I am with the whole idea of other spices of humans thing. It's pretty easy to separate the facts from the fiction and when that is done, the facts do not support the theory. IMO

The Red Dear People facts. A skull was found
The Red Dear People fiction. All the supporting statements mentioned for the imagination to ponder on.

Denisovans (mentioned in the Red Dear article) facts. A single finger bone was found.
Denisovan fiction. All the supporting statements mentioned for the imagination to ponder on.

When Scientists invent whole species of human like creatures from a single skull or a finger bone that raises all kinds of red flags for me and especially when most of the data is pure speculation. I am not a Scientist. Heck I'm not a Farmer either, don't know much about tilling the ground but I'm pretty sure my ancestors were human.

I simply cannot get from here to there with believing much of this for the infinite number of half's preventing me. I'll have to stick with what God said in Genesis when he created the first man Adam, that he was the first man and I believe that he was a whole completely finished human being. Even if Adam represents all of mankind, they and us are still human and not almost human or appearing like we descended from apes like we are lead to believe if we trust in the data presented in speculative theories such as the Red Dear People or the like.

[indianabob]

Hi Stacey and thanks for your comments.

I agree fully with you.

I have wondered how we would explain where the precursors to Adam came from. Were there dozens or hundreds or just one couple, male and female that blossomed into hundreds to provide a source for Adam and Eve?
Wouldn't it be just as wonderful and just as amazing that there were precursors that could function in the environment of earth and reproduce independently?

Why was it necessary for our omniscient God to have precursors?
Did God have to practice? No, certainly not!
Did God have to build a test species to see how they would handle life on the planet?
Did God have to provide an "upgrade" to the original?

Honestly this sounds like what men would have to do.
It does not sound like what God would have to do.
So why would He?

Just wondering, Indiana Bob

[indianabob]

Hi Stacey,

I fail to understand the teaching of paleontology that original humans didn't know how to till the ground. What is so hard about it?
You put some seeds in the ground and God waters them and the plant grows and gives back one hundred kernels of wheat, oats, barley and we strip the kernels off the head of grain and eat them raw.
Once we discover that they taste good and fill our need for food we gather the whole grain and take it back to our cave.

It is pretty obvious to me that most paleontologist have never lived off of the land.
One additional reason to distrust most folks with PhD's to their name.
Indiana Bob

I read the emails JFK listed.

If the other humans were hunter/gatherers that didn't know how to till the ground, that alone certainly does not make them anything less than man or human like I would consider a Red Deer or Neanderthal to be IF they truly existed so, I have to ask, are we to believe that Red Deer People or Neanderthals were human or man? 

Ray used the word 'advanced' man in those emails JFK mentioned. Now I can see where advanced could mean to be smarter but does that also mean that the other humans, the less advanced ones were more ape like?

Forgive my ignorance please.  Surely all this has already been asked and answered a thousand times around here.

[indianabob]

Right Deborah,

there was no man....to till the ground.
It doesn't say though, if I am understanding, that the man didn't know how to till the earth and was limited to gathering apples from the trees. That was my point.

Indiana Bob

[Kat]

Hi indianabob,

Why was it necessary for our omniscient God to have precursors?
Did God have to practice? No, certainly not!
Did God have to build a test species to see how they would handle life on the planet?
Did God have to provide an "upgrade" to the original?

Well if we look at what I think science has proved, that human being did live on the earth for probably many thousands of years before when Adam lived. I do not feel that God had to practice, but it's just the way He is doing this creation. He gave things a start and then He let them progress over many thousands and millions and even billions of years.

So mankind was given a start and they did progress to the point that God wanted/caused them to come to and then He added to Adam whatever it was that he needed to become the 'advanced man' God wanted to start His plan of salvation with. We do not know what the mental capacity of people that lived before Adam was, but over all those thousands or maybe millions of years that they lived, they did not developed anything that was sophisticated that we how of. So maybe God gave to Adam and all of mankind after him a greater degree of comprehension/intelligence/reasoning so that he had more intuition about himself, the world and God.

When you look at history (here is a link to a Biblestudy on 'Dates to Remember' http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10047.0.html) it was not until after Adam that we begin to see inventions start to come on the scene. They seem spread far apart, but I tend to think that Adams generation knew a great deal... Adam was taught by God Himself. There are many ancient discoveries, like huge stones (many tons in weight) that modern science has no idea how they were cut much less moved. But according to God's plan this knowledge was lost.

I am just trying to express these thoughts as maybe something that you had not considered and to be open for discussion.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[indianabob]

Hi Kat,
Thanks for the advice and the paper on dates. I read it all and appreciated it.
I didn't however see anything in it about any dates before 4000 BC.
Also please be aware that I'm referring only to the dates for animals or mankind  and not the date that the planet began to exist.

So I'm still of the opinion that scientist are mistaken and even deceived to believe that the miniscule evidence they think they have found in bones that they have dated by guess and supposition proves that homo erectus is older than Adam.

Professional scientist are just as easily deceived by their desire for position and power as churchmen are. Even the good hearted, honest, church attending archaeologist are subject to error and of pressing for acceptance of their favorite theories and once they have had peer review and been accepted into the hallowed halls of Harvard or M.I.T. they become absolutely positive that they are correct.

I read and study archaeology with a teaspoon of salt and only believe what I can confirm. And yes I am an amateur/novice, but there are many more trained scientist to contradict these errors than there are L. Ray Smiths to contradict Babylonian Christendom and the charlatans that inhabit it.

Scientists studied radiation chemistry and mechanical engineering and took a chance and proved that the power in the atom was much much greater than anyone had previously imagined. Science done from that position, one of absolute proof through the results in nature is one thing. Speculating on theories that they have no hope of proving is quite another. And even in the instance of the Atom or Hydrogen bomb, who knows whether God's hand was in it? To teach us a lesson that we seem not to have as yet learned.

I would be sincerely interested in any proof that anyone has for evolution and for any absolute dating methods, including radioactive decay, that don't presume constant conditions since the beginning of time on the earth.

Kindly offered, Indiana Bob