Resurrection of the unjust

[mavis92379]

I just re read Rays teaching on spiritual bodies for the wicked and am left with a couple questions ?

Are the unjust mortal when they are raised ?

When do they receive immortality ?

Pauls teaching in 1 Ths 4 is clear on how this happens for believers that at the last trump the dead in Christ shall be raised and those alive will be caught and we will be changed but how is this accomplished for the wicked in giving them immortality ?

Thanks,

Matt

Thanks,

Matt

[Kat]

Hi Matt,

Are the unjust mortal when they are raised ?

The way it seems to me is you would be raised with whatever character and personality you died with, you are not raised a different person. That is why there is the judgment of the LOF to purge and cleanse the people.

When do they receive immortality ?

The Bible doesn't seem to address this, but I would say sometime after they repent are cleansed and made righteous.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Rene]

I just re read Rays teaching on spiritual bodies for the wicked and am left with a couple questions ?

Hi Matt,

You do understand that Ray does not teach that the wicked will receive spiritual bodies upon resurrection.  Your statement above may be confusing to someone, therefore I wanted to clarify this point.

Here is where a short paper by Ray can be found on this subject:

PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION BODIES FOR THE WICKED & NON-BELIEVERS?
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7474.0.html

Excerpt from this paper:

Now let's foolishly assume that the wicked are going to be resurrected with "spiritual" bodies. The only place in Scripture that anyone is said to be resurrected with a "spiritual body," is in these many references in I Cor. 15. So if a resurrected "spiritual body" applies to the unjust and the wicked and the unbelievers, then these attributes which constitute a "spiritual body" resurrection MUST APPLY TO THEM ALSO.  Now then, show me one Scripture anywhere that justifies people like Mao Tse Tung, Adolph Hitler, or Saddam Hussein being resurrected with:

INCORRUPTIBILITY, UNENDING EXISTENCE, GENUINENESS, IMMORTALITY, INCORRUPTION, SINCERITY, GLORY (AS VERY APPARENT GLORY), DIGNITY, GLORY, GLORIOUS, HONOR, PRAISE, WORSHIP, FORCE, MIRACULOUS POWER, ABILITY, ABUNDANCE, MIGHT, MIGHTY, WORKER OF MIRACLES, POWER, STRENGTH,  ('violence' only when referencing an carnal person), MIGHTY (wonderful) WORK, NON-CARNAL, ETHEREAL, SPIRIT, DIVINELY, SUPER NATURAL, REGENERATE, RELIGIOUS, SPIRITUAL.

The entire paper is a good one to read and study.

René

[mavis92379]

Hi Rene,

I referenced the paper in my post and agree with it. My question was when do the wicked receive their immortality ? 

They are raised to be judged and brought to a repentance and salvation. Paul tells us in 1 Ths 4 all the believers will be changed at the same time at the last rump . Is this also true for the wicked that there is one event where all the "wicked" will be changed ?

Believers repent and await the Lords return for their change ! Someone who is raised in the resurrection of the unjust is raised to be judged to lead him to repentance and salvation but they dont really necessarily follow the pattern of awaiting for Christ to return as believers do. So when exactly does there repentance qualify for them for receiving immortality. Is it an individual thing or another event that brings it to them all at the same time ?

Thanks,

Matt

[Memme]

Matt, I’ve read this particular paper several times and will admit it is somewhat confusing to me.
 
Scripturally,  it makes sense to me that the wicked will be raised in the same spiritual state in which they die no matter what it ‘appears they will be’.  Jesus said ‘let the dead bury their dead’.  The wicked are dead spiritually and will physically die in that same spiritual state; however, the chosen have, are and will suffer one death (‘I die daily…’) by the Holy Spirit’s fire and have, are and will be REBORN a NEW CREATURE that will also die physically--those who aren't living when He comes will have actually suffered two deaths.   

1Jn 3:2:  "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”

Rev20:14:  "And death and hell (hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 21:8:  "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Note the verses before 21:8:  (vs 1-6) “And I perceived a new heaven and a new earth, for the former heaven and the former earth pass away, and the sea is no more.  I perceived the holy city, new Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I hear a loud voice out of the throne saying, "Lo! the tabernacle of God is with mankind, and He will be tabernacling with them, and they will be His peoples, and God Himself will be with them. And He will be brushing away every tear from their eyes. And death will be no more, nor mourning, nor clamor, nor misery; they will be no more, for the former things passed away.  And He Who is sitting on the throne said, "Lo! New am I making all!  And He is saying, "Write, for these sayings are faithful and true.  And He said to me, "I have become the Alpha and the Omega, the Origin and the Consummation. To him who is thirsting I shall be giving of the spring of the water of life gratuitously."  We ALL must pass through the fire to reach Jesus Christ, the tree of life and His living water; however, it seems, God accomplishes this in an opposite order for the 'chosen' vs the wicked.

Although it is unclear (to me at least), it seems that ‘immortality’ will be given to the wicked only after they suffer the second death in the LOF which will burn out their carnality.  Jesus said ‘to him who is thirsting I SHALL be giving of the spring of the water of life gratuitously.’  Those who are suffering the LOF will be ‘thirsting’ for that water just as the rich man did in the parable (Lk 16) but the ‘chasm’ will be closed by Jesus Christ Himself and He 'will be making ALL new!  How glorious and awesome is that?

In Him, Barbara

[adiamondintheson]

Good Morning Matt....
We found this to help us clarify when the dead in Christ vs. the unbelievers are to be raised and the 2nd death, etc. 
Hope this is of help to you as well. 
Revelation 20:1-15 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Strong's Greek Dictionary 165. aion  aiwn aion ahee-ohn'  properly, an age; Messianic period.....    And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell (the grave) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Sincerely
Den & Connie

[Kat]

Hi Den &/or Connie,

That is a good Scripture to look at for this. But I would just like to add that Rev. 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished," is spurious and not in the oringinal manuscript.

That might help somebody's understanding even more 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[sky]

Hi
I wonder what you think of these verses regarding all raising with immortal bodies.
1 Corinthians 15:35: How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? verse 37: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be. verse 42:  So also is the resurrection of the dead.  It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: verse 43: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. verse 46: Howbeit that was not first which is  spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
How does this fit into this question?
Thanks,
Sky

[Kat]

Hi Sky,

In the paper mentioned already by the OP 'PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION BODIES FOR THE WICKED & NON-BELIEVERS?' Ray explains who Paul is speaking of in 1 Cor. 15. Here is that part of the paper.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=7474.0 ---------------

Is the subject of I Corinthians 15, the world? The salvation of the wicked? The resurrection of the wicked? NO. Let's read it:

"Moreover, brethren [the world? NO, 'brethren'] I declare unto YOU the gospel..." (I Cor. 15:1).

"...by which also YOU are saved..." (Verse 2).

"For I delivered unto YOU...." (Verse 3).  Etc.

What is the "order" of the resurrection of which Paul speaks? "But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward THEY THAT ARE CHRIST'S at His coming" (Verse 23).

The resurrection taught in this chapter is that of "they that are CHRIST'S," not the resurrection of the wicked to Judgment. Pay attention TO THE WORDS!

1Co 15:50  "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

Chapter 15 is speaking of the true Elect Saints of God "inheriting the Kingdom of God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[the truth]

Hello mavis92379
I think it is importnant to remember Rev.22-14-15.And also remember As Ray teaches all the way back to the garden of Eden.That Christ which is the "tree of life" didnt allow anyone to partake of it because they would have put on immortality=deathlessness.God has a order 1-Cor-15-23.NO one will exscape Gods process of being transformed by fire..Spirit....1-Cor 15-28..."Christ was perfected through the things which he suffered." So its my understanding that after the white throne judgement people will be raised in mortal bodies.And according to their Spirtual condition will determine when they will put on Immortality.Ever one in God order...Christ said It will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorah... etc.Thats my understanding anyway.

[dave]

Hi Sky,

In the paper mentioned already by the OP 'PHYSICAL or SPIRITUAL RESURRECTION BODIES FOR THE WICKED & NON-BELIEVERS?' Ray explains who Paul is speaking of in 1 Cor. 15. Here is that part of the paper.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=7474.0 ---------------

Is the subject of I Corinthians 15, the world? The salvation of the wicked? The resurrection of the wicked? NO. Let's read it:

"Moreover, brethren [the world? NO, 'brethren'] I declare unto YOU the gospel..." (I Cor. 15:1).

"...by which also YOU are saved..." (Verse 2).

"For I delivered unto YOU...." (Verse 3).  Etc.

What is the "order" of the resurrection of which Paul speaks? "But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward THEY THAT ARE CHRIST'S at His coming" (Verse 23).

The resurrection taught in this chapter is that of "they that are CHRIST'S," not the resurrection of the wicked to Judgment. Pay attention TO THE WORDS!

1Co 15:50  "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

Chapter 15 is speaking of the true Elect Saints of God "inheriting the Kingdom of God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

The number ONE lesson I learned from Ray that made (my)understanding sharper..." Pay attention TO THE WORDS!"

[flavmusicman]

I remembered reading some where Ray saying that the bible does not say that an event like the transformation of the body which will happen to the believers will only happen once, that makes all sense to me, everything must fallow Gods order,when they bow-down and confess that Jesus is lord for the glory of the father why not  a transformation of the body? Hope that helps.   
 

[santgem]

THE THREE FESTIVALS AND THE SALVATION OF ALL

There is a beautiful type in the Old Testament that clearly demonstrates when and in what manner all these Unsaved masses will be saved. This Old Testament type is illustrated all through the New Testament, but the blind and unperceiving eyes of Christendom have for the most part failed to see it, believe it, or teach it.

The American Heritage College Dictionary: "type n  6. A figure, representation, or symbol of something to come, such as an event in the Old Testament that foreshadows another in the New Testament," p. 1485.  There are many such types beginning back in the the first chapter of Genesis.

Here are just two examples:  The Passover in ancient Israel was a type of its true fulfillment to come in our Lord's crucifixion, "Purge out therefore the old leaven that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened [but now speaking spiritually].  For even Christ our PASSOVER [Lamb] is sacrificed [crucified] for us " (I Cor. 5:7).  And James 1:18 clearly demonstrates the foreshadowing of the firstfruits harvest by saying:  "Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a KIND of firstfruits [of the Spring Harvest] of His creatures [not farm products]."  It is also important to note that whenever the word "first" is used, it always suggests more to follow -- there is never a Spring harvest without a following Fall harvest. We will now consider three of the Old Testament types that center on the harvest seasons.

In ancient Israel there were three times in the year when all men were to appear before God:

THE WAVE SHEAF (Feast of Unleavened Bread and Passover): "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf OF the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest ... And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the FIRST year for a burnt offering unto the Lord" (Lev. 23:10-12).

COMMENT: This wave sheaf of the very first of the firstfruits is a type of our Lord Who was the perfect Lamb without blemish offered in the Spring on Passover. "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the FIRSTFRUIT of them that sleep" (I Cor. 15:20). Jesus is not the entire firstfruits but rather "the firstfruit OF them that sleep." He is the firstfruit OF the firstfruit or more precisely the "wave sheaf OF the firstfruits." Firstfruit is a term that pertains to agriculture and harvesting. It was never a theological term until introduced into the New Testament with regards to a small number who would be saved prior to a much larger number to be saved later.

THE FIRSTFRUITS (Feast of Weeks): "All the best of the oil , and all the best of the wine, and of the wheat, the FIRSTFRUITS of them which they shall offer unto the Lord, them have I given thee ... And whatsoever is FIRST RIPE in the land which they shall bring unto the Lord, shall be thine..." (Num. 18:12 & 13). "And now, behold, I have brought the firstfruits of the land, which thou, O Lord, has given me. And thou shalt set it before the LORD thy God, and worship before the Lord thy God" (Deut. 26:10).

COMMENT: The type in the New Testament of this Old Testament symbol is the Believer. Notice what James tells us, "Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of FIRSTFRUITS of His creatures" (James 1:18). Now a very important point: How far down the road in prophecy can we go until we reach the end of the firstfruits? In Rev. 7:4-8 we read of the sealing of the 144,000. These are a different group from the great innumerable multitude, which no man could number, from every nation and tongue spoken of beginning in verse 9.

In Chapter 14:1 & 4 we are told specifically who these 144,000 are: "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with Him an hundred forty and four thousand [notice that the innumerable multitudes from all nations is not mentioned here] ... These are they which were not defiled with women, for they are virgins [as in the Bride of Christ]. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, BEING THE FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb" (Rev. 14:1 & 4). So every believer from the Apostles to the 144,000 just prior to the return of Jesus Christ to establish His reign on the earth, is called and likened to FIRSTFRUITS! So what does this have to do with the lake of fire? EVERYTHING! Everyone saved before the Day of Judging is likened to firstfruits, so there will be no more firstfruits after the white throne judgment.

Paul tells us in Rom. 8:23, "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the FIRSTFRUITS of the Spirit..." Nowhere do we read of the "LASTFRUITS," but whenever something is FIRST we also know there is something to follow. Nor are there any references to any "ONLYFRUITS." The firstfruits are clearly not the ONLY fruits! Follow this very closely now, for you are in for a big shock when you understand the type in the fall festival of Tabernacles—the great fall harvest.

THE END-OF-THE-YEAR FEAST OF INGATHERING (Feast of Tabernacles): "And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou has sown in the field and the FEAST OF INGATHERING, which is in the END OF THE YEAR, when you have gathered in thy labours out of the field" (Ex. 23:16).

"Thou shall observe the FEAST OF TABERNACLES seven [number of perfection] days, after that you have gathered in your corn and your wine: And you shall REJOICE IN YOUR FEAST, you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the widow, that are within your gates [that's just about EVERYONE, wouldn't you say?]. Seven days [here's that perfect number again] shall you keep A SOLEMN FEAST [a very important feast to God] unto the LORD your God in the place which the Lord shall choose: because the Lord thy God shall bless you in all your increase, and in all the works of your hands, therefore you shalt surely REJOICE" (Deut. 16:13-15). Here truly was a festival in which EVERYONE, every single person in all Israel, and also did you notice, "the STRANGER" who was NOT an Israelite could really REJOICE! THIS FESTIVAL WAS THE HAPPIEST TIME OF THE YEAR! Do we think it will have no fulfillment in God's grand plan of salvation?

"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, the fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the FEAST OF TABERNACLES for seven days unto the LORD. On the first day shall be an holy convocation: you shall do no servile work therein. Seven days you shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the EIGHTH DAY shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by FIRE unto the LORD: it is a SOLEMN assembly; and you shall do no servile work therein" (Lev. 23:34-36). Why is the profound and marvelous truth of this festival not taught in its proper chronological order by the prophets of Christendom? How is it even possible to avoid seeing the powerful and glorious consummation of God's salvation in this Fall Harvest Festival? Why is the truth of this GREAT FEAST being hidden from the eyes of the world? What is it that they are trying to hide from us? God's Word will show us.

JESUS TAUGHT THE PURPOSE OF THE FALL HARVEST

The eighth day of this Feast of Tabernacles was called "The Last Great Day of the Feast." Jesus Christ Himself came to the Feast of Tabernacles in Jerusalem and spoke on the Last Great Day:

"In the last day, that GREAT DAY OF THE FEAST, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If ANY MAN thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of LIVING WATER" (John 7:37-38).

At what point in future prophecy, will Jesus Christ CUT OFF the invitation to all and any who are athirst to drink of His LIVING WATERS? Our Lord NEVER cuts off the invitation to drink of the living waters. These waters (a symbol for God's SPIRIT) will be available until every creature in heaven and earth is saved:

"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the FOUNTAIN OF THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY" (Rev. 21:6).

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the WATER OF LIFE FREELY" (Rev. 22:17).

And this declaration is made just five verses before the END OF THE BIBLE!

But don't be deceived, Jesus Christ IS the "tree of life" in the Garden, and NO ONE can partake of that tree of life except he first pass the through the "FLAMING SWORD" that points in all directions and guards the tree of life. Remember, "Our God is a CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).

So Tabernacles celebrated the great Fall harvest, the largest harvest of the whole year. It was this great Fall harvest that would sustain Israel through the winter months. There were far more products to be harvested in the END of the year than in the Spring of the year. Therefore this same type must carry over into the New Testament.

So here is where we are. There were THREE great festivals in the yearly calendar of Israel:

"THREE TIMES in a year shall all thy males appear before the LORD thy God in the place which He shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread [which included Passover], and in the feast of weeks [firstfruits], and in the feast of tabernacles [the time of the great fall harvest]: and they shall not appear before the LORD empty" (Deut. 16:16).

First comes the wave sheaf, the very first of the firstfruits, on Passover, during the feast of unleavened bread. This represents CHRIST, the very first (wave sheaf) OF the firstfruit, our Passover sacrificed for us.

Second was the Feast of Weeks when the firstfruit of the land was harvested. This represents US, the FIRSTFRUIT to enter God's Kingdom. James says WE are the firstfruit of God (James 1:18).

Third came the great Fall harvest, the Feast of Tabernacles, a much much larger gathering, where ALL THE FALL HARVEST was gathered in! What does this Feast picture? This was the time of true REJOICING FOR EVERYONE. Absolutely EVERYONE. No one was left out of this great and final festival of the year:

"And thou shalt rejoice IN THY FEAST [of Tabernacles, the fall harvest], YOU, and your SON, and your DAUGHTER, and your MANSERVANT, and your MAIDSERVANT, and the LEVITE, the STRANGER [GENTILES], and the FATHERLESS, and the WIDOW, that are within your gates" (Deut. 16:14).

NO ONE was EXCLUDED! EVERYONE was INCLUDED!

And so we see in the New Testament that these three festivals of ancient Israel are really TYPES in God's master plan of salvation. Christ the FIRST of the firstfruit. Then believers, the FIRSTFRUITS. And then the great FALL HARVEST.

But wait a minute. We know that Christ was the First of the firstfruit to be resurrected to life. We also know that all the believing saints who are to reign with Christ at His coming are the rest of the firstfruits. So where then does the great fall harvest of souls come into God's family? When have you ever been taught about the great fall harvest, which excludes no one but includes everyone? There is a reason why you haven't heard the truth of these Scriptures in Christendom.

According to Christendom THERE IS NO GREAT FALL HARVEST OF SOULS at the end of the ages!

That's right, they say there will be NO Fall Harvest in God's Kingdom. Just how do they account for such a thing? Is God such an inept and unskilled Farmer that He has a total crop failure when Fall harvest time comes, or will He just BURN THE ENTIRE HARVEST in the eternal fires of some fabled hell?

[indianabob]

Thank you Santgem,

Well said and helpful.
Isn't it interesting how the hidden truth is so obvious once it is stated clearly to those who are given to understand.
I appreciate that you put this all together so plainly.
I assume these thoughts have been in your mind for some time.
Please stick with the thread as I'm sure there will be more questions from those who are hearing this for the first time.

Indiana Bob

[Kat]

Hi Bob,

That post from santgem (thanks for posting it for review), was from one of Ray's article, LoF no. 4

http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[indianabob]

Thanks for the attribution Kat, I didn't search first and should have.
I remember the details from my former association in WCG.
That thirty years did have some value leading toward understanding of God's plan.
I just didn't see it until Ray put it all together for us.

Friend Bob

[Kat]

Yeah I was in WCG for many yrs too and believe all that study of the OT has been of value as well. Ray did bring so many of those teachings together for us.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[the truth]

Hello,All
I am so thankful that the post by santgem was posted.Because this is something that the Lord is working within my understanding at this point  in my walk with Him.I could not remember if Ray ever taught on this and when I looked for some reason it alluded me.So I haven't really been able to really get my thoughts across on this matter because I didn't Want it to be looked at as me trying teaching something on the forum.But Since Ray has commented on it I have a question.

First Ray shares this:
First comes the wave sheaf, the very first of the firstfruits, on Passover, during the feast of unleavened bread. This represents CHRIST, the very first (wave sheaf) OF the firstfruit, our Passover sacrificed for us.

Second was the Feast of Weeks when the firstfruit of the land was harvested. This represents US, the FIRSTFRUIT to enter God's Kingdom. James says WE are the firstfruit of God (James 1:18).

Third came the great Fall harvest, the Feast of Tabernacles, a much much larger gathering, where ALL THE FALL HARVEST was gathered in! What does this Feast picture? This was the time of true REJOICING FOR EVERYONE. Absolutely EVERYONE. No one was left out of this great and final festival of the year:

"And thou shalt rejoice IN THY FEAST [of Tabernacles, the fall harvest], YOU, and your SON, and your DAUGHTER, and your MANSERVANT, and your MAIDSERVANT, and the LEVITE, the STRANGER [GENTILES], and the FATHERLESS, and the WIDOW, that are within your gates" (Deut. 16:14).

NO ONE was EXCLUDED! EVERYONE was INCLUDED!

And so we see in the New Testament that these three festivals of ancient Israel are really TYPES in God's master plan of salvation. Christ the FIRST of the firstfruit. Then believers, the FIRSTFRUITS. And then the great FALL HARVEST.

But wait a minute. We know that Christ was the First of the firstfruit to be resurrected to life. We also know that all the believing saints who are to reign with Christ at His coming are the rest of the firstfruits. So where then does the great fall harvest of souls come into God's family? When have you ever been taught about the great fall harvest, which excludes no one but includes everyone? There is a reason why you haven't heard the truth of these Scriptures in Christendom.

So,It sounds to me Ray is saying that this Feast of tabernacle is when God is all in all if you will.

If,So ...And maybe I had a brain laps very possible..How do these Scripture fit as it seems He is speaking of the feast of the tabernacle being the mill um reign of Christ to me rather than all in all.here are the Scriptures.

Zech-14-16-21..please read all of chapter 14.
Rev-21-2-8
Rev-22-13-17

So thanks for all who will help me to understand this!

[indianabob]

Hi Jerry,
This may not address exactly what you are asking, but I hope it will lead that way.

Let's be practical in our assessment of How God may proceed.
There is going to be a resurrection to physical life of those who died lost; both adults and kids.
One may assume that they will be raised healthy and able bodied or at least healed soon after they are raised.
Next a detailed explanation of what happened to them and how much time has elapsed since they died.
Then the normal needs of a large displaced populace such as a place to rest and a steady supply of food until they get organized into communities. Some division of labor according to talents and prior experience etc etc. So won't all of the above require that a substantial population of UN-saved people live over into the "millennium" to be there to provide the needed aid and translation of language?
The transition is going to be a mind boggling challenge in logistics for who ever gets the job.

Only then will there be the teaching of righteousness through the "lake of fire".
That period of teaching righteousness IS NOT going to be a thirty day course in righteousness for dummies It is going to be a large part of an entire lifetime, a time of perseverance in well doing or whatever God has planned.

Then we may suppose that these physical folks are going to need to learn to rear children the way God would have children to grow and learn by the parents visible example. So I see procreation going on during the teaching period (however long it may be) and lots of new generations.

After that we can use our imaginations, but I think you see my point thus far.

Thanks for considering my thoughts, Indianabob

[the truth]

Hello.indianabob
I do so much enjoy and appreciate your thoughts and post!And do you see the wisdom in taking a step back and trying to see things from other perspectives which I will admit isn't a strength of mine.

You said:
Let's be practical in our assessment of How God may proceed

I look to 1-Cor 15-23 for that practical assessment. And that IS why when I look at whats been presented by Ray in this regard it gets a little tricky putting this thing together for me anyway.

One thing is for sure we must put the order together correctly .Which could be a little more tricky than we may think.Because of who this Firstfruit Wholly consist of.

But just as important as that is marrying the other Scripture to confirm what we believe.Which when I do that I don't see happening.Not to mention other Scripture That I haven't shared as of yet?

But the good news is God has blessed me with company that has His Spirit.And they will help me come to the truth of the matter!

I also would like to say indianabob. I so Respect the way you respect others when addressing them.It makes it so much easier to fellowship when someone shows respect, to what you may be seeing.Rather than to try to put you in a box.. of who they think you are by some words on a computer screen.