> Off Topic Discussions
When I was a kid:
Dave in Tenn:
Darren, maybe part of your answer is already in your post. God gave you something to forgive, and the grace to do so. All of life is about overcoming. God sets everything right. Before it's all over, the lion will lie down with the kid. He's given you, in your forgiveness of them, a taste of that overcoming. He'll feed them too. Hang in there.
Kat:
Hi Darren,
Here are some emails where Ray discusses some of the reasons why we see... as you asked "terrible physical abuse by parents to children who were born to them with no choice in the matter." Ray's point may have been why people have sex/rape little children, but it would be the same reasons as why they beat their children or caused them to suffer in other ways as well. (I underlined a sentence that I feel is critical for us to understand.)
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=224.msg1868#msg1868 -----------
I have explained this many times, but there are few who can understand it. God created man subject to VANITY (failure). God made mankind that way. It is absolutely stupid for theologians to deny it. God plainly tells us this in Rom. 8:20.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Man has naturally a natural mind, a mind of flesh, called in Scripture the "carnal mind" and it naturally HATES God and cannot keep His law (Rom. 8:7).
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
But if you or anyone does not even believe these Scriptures, why go further? God made man with testerone. His natural inclination is to have sex with pretty women--OFTEN.
Then God turns around and tells man to not have sex with pretty women AT ALL--only in marriage. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCE man to desire sex with women. Man desires that all on his own. Some men desire sex with children. God doesn't MAKE OR FORCED men to have sex with children. Some men do it naturally. Are you following me?
God could stop all men from having sex with children. But He doesn't. That's because God has a plan for the human race that involves humans doing things so horrible, that they will eventually learn to never trust their own heart and mind again. They must have faith and trust in God through His Holy Spirit.
All men would have sex with little children, if they grew up under the same circumstances as the men who do have sex with little children. This is a sobbering thought that few theologians alive have ever contemplated for more than 2 and one half seconds. And women have their particular natural inclination to commit horrible sins. This is God's creation, not mine. This is God's plan with humans, not mine. I can justify God in all His ways. Most can't. God will rectify and reconcile all things that has ever been committed.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2354.0 ---------------
You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?" It is BOTH. Listen: God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE. That's it. That's all there is to it. That IS the principle. That IS the Truth. That IS what the Bible teaches. It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices." You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation. It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."
So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS? Well, does He? Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls? That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will. They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right? Wrong, wrong, wrong!
Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them. He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things. And who created the Devil? That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things. Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money. God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT. They volunteer with little outside influence. God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak. Eve couldn't help but sin. God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.
I hardly know what else to tell you. God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams. They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God. So then we don't make choices, right? NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES. It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see. Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED. And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that? He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.
I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it. Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!
God be with you,
Ray
Gina:
--- Quote from: darren on March 31, 2012, 01:44:32 AM ---Greetings to all. It's been a long time since I posted. Seeing Indianabobs and John from Kentuckys replys just reconfirms my belief that there somethings that I just do not understand about Gods way a thinkng and most likely never understand. One that came to mind is terrible physical abuse by parents to children who were born to them with no choice in the matter. God knows and predetermend who their parents are going to be before they are even born. I am sure all can see where I am gong with this. So As I stated before I just don't understand and never will untill God Himself choose to show me. If ever. Hey I can understand God using certin evils and sufferings for teaching but what does physical abuse to little children teach?? After 50yrs I still struggle about the lesson that God taught me back then. Don't get me wrong. I dont blame God, my mom or dad. I forgave my parents long ago and God sure does not need my forgiveness. It;s all according to His plan. Just remembering When I was a kid.
Darren
--- End quote ---
Hi Darren
I was just having this conversation with my sister Cheri the other day. We both know how you feel, sadly enough. We made it through the abuse, our mother did not. The last seven years of her life were spent in a state run nursing home having suffered a major stroke due to a blood clot the size of a "small grapefruit" on the left side of her brain. She was then further abused (raped likely). My dad went up to see her and her only somewhat functioning arm was broken -- black and blue from the clavicle to the tips of her fingers. The hospital staff said she fell out of her bed, but she couldn't have because she couldn't move -- she was paralyzed on her right side and could barely move and she couldn't speak. I think she was trying to fight off her attacker and he broke her arm.
When the doctors shaved my mom's head to get to the blood clot they found multiple scars on her scalp from the abuse inflicted on her by my father. And when my dad tried to sue the doctors who he claimed didn't "find the blood clot in time" (but really it was for nothing other than money--not because he wanted to help my mother), no attorney would represent him.
I remember going up to the hospital to see her with my brother Vince -- we were 8 and 10 at the time. We'd begged my dad for two years to go see her and he didn't say a thing to us for the hour and half drive to the state run nursing home in Hagerstown, Maryland where he stuck her; but when we entered the hospital, he said, "Whatever you do, don't call her Paula!" (That was the name of dad's current girlfriend he had living out our house while mom was being "taken care of" in the nursing home.) As if we could ever confuse our mother with that lunatic he had sleeping in her bed.
You would have thought that would have made dad not want to beat us any more, but he did and eventually the law came in and took my brothers away from my dad. It made my dad so angry he refused to have contact with any of his nine children for 20 years, until my brother Vince became a Maryland State Trooper and my dad went to his police barracks and begged his forgiveness. Maybe because he thought Vince would take out his gun and shoot the m-f'er. But he wouldn't have.
You should see my dad now.
When you see stuff like that, it makes you question God, but I feel honored to have been hand-picked to suffer at least some of the abuse that our Lord and Savior has suffered.
When I was a kid, there were no laws in place to protect children or women from abusive fathers/husbands. That changed in my lifetime. That's pretty cool.
Samson:
--- Quote from: Lewis on March 28, 2012, 09:28:59 PM ---When I was a kid in the "good old days":
People had Polio.
A cancer diagnosis was a death sentence.
People didn't have seat belts, but ran into things anyway. They were usually stopped by the steering wheel in their chest. Or the windshield.
Talking to my dad overseas on the telephone was an expensive proposition that took half an hour to arrange.
Television had three channels.
A three day weather forecast was pure imagination.
I was twenty years away from buying my first motorcycle.
I was being raised Roman Catholic.
--- End quote ---
Lewis,
I agree with your points expressed above, but the Seat Belt Argument is not a done deal, meaning, sometimes the use of seat belts can lead to dangerous results too, at least that's my understanding and Yes, I use my seat belt, the fine is too stiff, but I think that the choice should be optional, not based on a meddling ever intrusive Political system. Often, as a result of their meddling, I feel that I'm in Kindergarten, ;).
No Offense intended, just my opinion, Samson.
Revilonivek:
let me pour out some things that bother me.. I am frustrated...maybe you can bring in insights to help me "see"
Just maybe- just maybe.. its religion's way of explaining away why the great evils occur. Granted we learn so much about love through experiencing evils but still. we learn about love through love as well. I just don't see the reason why we need to experience extreme evil at all. There is no logic to the story. people do rape/kill young children- they use malnourished children in Africa as shark, crocoicle bait when fishing. they abuse/molest children, young women. they take in pleasure of beheading some one else to fulfill their righteousness, There are worse evils I could name here, but are they even necessary- Wait till you experience the worse and you tell me how it is justified? I would not subject my children to those kinds of extreme evils to teach them something.
We learn from our not so perfect parents, it becomes who we are. It makes us determined to do better. If we learned from the giver of life who is already perfect, we would be perfect already by the time we were adults.
Bible says our minds are already a failure because God set us to be weak. bible says we will fail anyway even if we strive after righteousness, Why subject us to failure when we can succeed?
How does that help any of us? How is that truly glorifying God? It's like making mankind handicapped on purpose then fix them? Its like God admitted to that? How is that fair?
We come here with no memory whatsoever- no memory of the truth- and we grow up in a crappy world that's filled with good and evil and we're left to fail anyway and leave only a elite few to rescue the rest of handicapped mankind that God handicapped in the first place?
We have no clue to who God really is. we can only guess so much-Why create the elite few to rescue mankind and promise them great honors, rewards, ruling with Christ, when all of mankind can do that too? its like rewarding the elites with high rewards and rewarding the rest of mankind with regular rewards, but not the same rewards for overcoming the world? comparing the many as tares or bad stuff while comparing the elites as wheat, the good stuff.. or talks about pruning the tree, pruning the bad parts and keeping the good parts so that the good parts can produce fruit. it seems to refer to the rest of mankind as bad parts and referring to the elites as good parts to make sure they produce fruit?
It doesn't make sense.. when they could have had the same thing too. They had to endure as well and they were set to fail... how is that fair in comparable to elites and the mankind?
They even mention a new Jerusalem with 12 gates named after the apostles just because they were the first "fathers" that initiated the Good news Gospel. Why didn't Jesus write his own gospels, the source from the source himself? I don't even understand the need of animal sacrifice. How does that help you or me.. How does sacrificing Jesus on the cross saves us? I would understand if it was HIS LIFE that saved us. He showed us the way, he gave us the example, I would understand that, but how does resurrection to life, how does his death, how does his virgin birth to prove his divinity prove anything? even stories of virgin births and resurrections in other religion stories before Christ are extremely popular. They're popular in Greek mythology- they're popular in eygptian mythology, They re popular in Hindu mythology. They're popular in many different religions.
Maybe it's our way of explaining things that are unexplained. Bible says God can fix everyone in an instant? Why make us handicapped in first place? why not fix our minds now and be done with it? I would understand if we are subject to evil if we understood what the truth was in the first place.. I'm just trying to understand..
Denise
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