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Author Topic: In OR OUT?  (Read 3510 times)

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thetruth

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In OR OUT?
« on: April 08, 2012, 10:36:49 AM »

I have been thinking about this for a little while.If you ask the people of denomanations or non-denomanations out there.Will everyone in their church enter the Kingdom most will say No!And of course they would say Heaven not Kingdom.But my point is if most say No because they believe that there is always a few who play church like what will happen today.How do they reconcile the many Scriptures such as"No one will pluck them out of my hand" and "If you confess me before man I will confess you before my Father which is in heaven."The Scriptures proclaim once you Truly belong to him he is not going to lose you! So today many will go and get Saved as they know it..only to end up unsaved if they dont go to church enough to meet the quota of the church and be deemed a back slider?Any thoughts?
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octoberose

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Re: In OR OUT?
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2012, 10:57:05 PM »

Hi Truth,
 Well, it's not a stretch for me to believe that most people at 'church' believe that most things are beyond our understanding and we are just throwing ourselves on the mercy of God. At least a lot of the honest ones.
 But, to answer your question,they read scriptures such as these that indicated a 'falling away': I Corinthians 9:27, "But I buffet my body and lead it captive, lest having preached to others I should be myself rejected." That was of course Paul speaking. And then Matt. 10:22 talks about enduring to the end and John 15:6, "if any one may not remain in me, he was cast forth without as the branch, and was withered, and they gather them, and cast to fire, and they are burned;" (notice they were with Him and did not Remain in Him). Galatians 6 talks about reaping a harvest if "we do not give up" and Hebrews 6:4-6 says for [it is] impossible for those once enlightened, having tasted also of the heavenly gift, and partakers having became of the Holy Spirit,5 and did taste the good saying of God, the powers also of the coming age, 6 and having fallen away, again to renew [them] to reformation, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame. And the last one for now is II Peter 2: 20-21- 20 for, if having escaped from the pollutions of the world, in the acknowledging of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and by these again being entangled, they have been overcome, become to them hath the last things worse than the first, 21for it were better to them not to have acknowledged the way of the righteousness, than having acknowledged [it], to turn back from the holy command delivered to them. (Young's Literal).
 So, what are we to make of those? Before my days of BT, I would have said that we can't believe in "once saved always saved" because of verses such as these. Now, I have a fuller understanding because God gave Truth to a man named Ray and I believed what I read. Thank you God for open eyes. Now I know that we are in the PROCESS of being saved. Even Paul did not write as if his personal 'status' as the Elect was for sure. God knows who the Elect is because he ELECTED them, but I am not going to declare that I know that I am. My belief in universal salvation does not save me, my friends. God knows my heart and only He sees my motives, my true thoughts, weather my religion is pure or weather the cares of the world will snatch away my first love. Maybe some here feel differently and I understand that, but we will agree that God will save all in the end- because weather it is today or tomorrow, He is Risen and that changed everything.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: In OR OUT?
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2012, 11:18:45 PM »

It's hard to comment on your observation because there are so many denominations and non-denominations out there.  Every one of them seems to have a different 'definition' for all those terms and a different set of criteria for 'making it' or 'losing it' according to their own doctrine.

My old denomination believed "once saved, always saved'...but they don't know what 'saved' means and surely don't believe Jesus will actually do such a thing for everybody.  Some think that just by affiliation and following the 'rules' they will be the ONLY ones saved. 

I've encountered so many views of what  'backsliding' is, I can't even remember them all.

Ray's transcript here is maybe the closest thing I can think of to put all this denominational babble out of our misery and into the light.  I might want to warn you, though, that you need to understand other concepts before this can really clear out the cobwebs.  I know I did.

Ask if you're unsure.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7047.0.html   
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

thetruth

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Re: In OR OUT?
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2012, 05:01:57 PM »

Hey Dave and Octoberose
Thanks for your replies!I had a friend ask me to pose this question to the forum and see what kind of responses I would get?So i hope others will reply as well.I find it interesting that here at Bt and others who know of Ray real well but are not on the forum.That some seem to have a belief a conviction that they are part of the elect.While others seem to have doubts?Ray seems to me to have a conviction that he is.Someone else I know sees it the same way .But again others not so much.Is it that Ray seems to have conviction as well as many others that because God has opened their eyes to these truths they see this as a confirmation or proof?Really would like the Bt -brass to comment on this...Kat, Deb,Gina,john Kentucky,Samson,Marques ,,and the rest of the awesome bunch!I have no Alternative motive why I ask this.Just would like to get some thoughts.Why is it your believe and see your elect OR why is it your unsure?Paul did say 2-tim-"'on that day I will put on my Crown of Righteousness".must of known something?Thanks to everyone for your time and thoughts if you choose to share.And again thanks Dave and Octoberose!
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Kat

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Re: In OR OUT?
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2012, 06:19:55 PM »


Well I don't see it as a clear cut conviction of being an elect or unsurity. It's about knowing this carnal flesh, I have a conviction that this is the truth and God has opened my eyes to it, I have confidence in that right now. BUT... I am fully aware that circumstances could quickly arise that would carry me to the wayside. It was not until Paul was near the end of his life that he would even could/would state that he had endured to the end, won the race and was an Elect. He actually had stated earlier in the Scripture that he knew he could be rejected/disqualified.

1Co 9:26-27  I therefore so run, as not uncertainly; so fight I, as not beating the air: but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected.

Now also I do believe the elect are sealed by God and can not be lost, it's just that we do not know and can not have certainty that we are an elect/wheat and maybe not a tare. The parable of the wheat and the tare told by Jesus is significant and bears consideration.

A bit of info on tares; baby tare and baby wheat stalk looks exactly the same, in fact they're indistinguishable. The only way to tell the difference is when they both mature in the Spring. At maturity the tare is light weight and lacks substance, but the wheat is heavy and bears fruit (grain). There are tiny black seeds inside the tares and if you eat it, it can cause dizziness and nausea.

So there are tare/non-elect among the wheat/elect that are indistinguishable from one another, in the beginning anyway. I believe Christ will not give us absolute assurity that we are elect because our carnal flesh could not handle that properly, we might become filled with pride or boast. To me it would be presumptuous to have the idea of being elected.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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octoberose

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Re: In OR OUT?
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2012, 06:47:39 PM »

The verses I quoted and others indicate we have to "not give up". Only God knows if I won't give up. Though really I can't  imagine doing anything of the sort. Where else is there to go? And it seems to me that the disciples were always harrasing Jesus about their place in the Kingdom and they sound so petty to me. Of couse this is before Jesus' death when their understanding was pretty limited. And Paul doesn't want to be "disqualified from the prize" . Why would he  say that? Perhaps his struggles are so desparately painful he didnt always trust himself? And he surely knew he would be facing a painful death. I don't know.
What really bothers me about the possibility of not being part of the elect is not having the Spirit now. That is having a "form of godliness but none of its power." I hope I'm not leading that kind of life- but I have a couple of  persistent struggles that you'd  think I'd be past now. And to tell you the Truth (pun intended ) it feels like denying the power of the Spirit. I hate that.
 I'm in the middle of reading Ray's article (really good but takes time) that Dave suggested to you. I think Ive read it before but it bears repeating.
 Lastly, I have no judgement on anyone who has a different perspective than I do. If God has given you insight into this than that is a blessing you don't need to question. I think the question  you posed was a important one .
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octoberose

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Re: In OR OUT?
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2012, 06:52:39 PM »

Such a good post Kat- forum members don't even have to bother with mine- they should go straight to yours!
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: In OR OUT?
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2012, 07:57:16 PM »

My view of whether I might be one of THE Elect of God has changed over time with my understanding.

In my denomination, the elect, if spoken of at all, were every christian who actually WAS a christian.  That really answers very, very little, but may have a bit of understanding in it.  But with that in mind, reading Ray those first few days, the first thing that came to my mind wasn't "Oh boy, maybe I'm one of those 'elect' dudes that are going to reign with Christ", but "Thank God, I'm not going to be a miserable, wretched sinner forever.  SOMEBODY is going to be able to make me and everything else alright."

A bit later, I began to 'see the possibility' that I might be one of those, but only in the way one identifies with the characters in any piece of writing--not much more than seeing myself as Tom Sawyer or Ishmael, only in Scripture instead of fiction.

As I continued to read and grow, and see the 'elect' as the 'few' in the Gospel of the Kingdom I entertained the idea that I might be 'one of those'.

Since my view of MYSELF in relation to election has changed over time with each new understanding, I have nothing but reason to expect that it will continue to evolve as I continue to read, meditate and live.

This is a huge subject and I can no longer 'say' everything in a forum post.  I'll say just this to amen some of what precedes.  God is Sovereign.  He didn't choose His disciples BECAUSE of their pasts--not even in spite of their pasts.  He caused their pasts.  No matter how you, or octoberrose or Kat came to believe the Gospel, He caused it to happen.  I KNOW I didn't choose this, and nobody who has come to grips with the Sovereignty of God can claim otherwise for themselves.

All of us who believe have been ELECTED to believe.  Have we been ELECTED to reign with Christ and judge the world?  Neither He nor we are finished yet.

The 'race' is mentioned above.  Though there may be more, I only can think of two ways be be disqualified in a race.  One is to stop running.  (He who endures to the end will be saved.)  The other is to cheat.  ...you worship in vain.

I really can't see anybody being qualified to judge the world who thinks 'judgement' is everlasting torture, seperation, or annihilation.  Nor can I see anybody 'reigning with Christ' who doesn't recognize Christ's reign.

There's SO much more to it.  www.bible-truths.com

Anyways, I don't much like doing 'talking points' on things which have changed (and are changing) my life, especially with people who are not here "with us" in spirit and understanding.

 
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 03:10:40 AM by Dave in Tenn »
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

thetruth

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Re: In OR OUT?
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2012, 12:33:30 AM »

Hello again!

Kat, as always thank you so much for your respect to my question, and as always your response.To tell you the truth i as many others have felt that i could not lay total claim as to being the electWhy?Because of what you said... I know if it aint for God and His Spirit I am finished.And by His Grace I am coming  more and more to see the Carnal man.With that being said we can also as Dave shared:As I continued to read and grow, and see the 'elect' as the 'few' in the Gospel of the Kingdom I entertained the idea that I might be 'one of those'-Dave quote.

Kat..I have heard Ray make mention or emply as to the group He was addressing.That He and that Group was elect.Now let me say I could have miss understood what he meant in some way ok.... so please no one jump to conclusions.I understand that we are not God in the sense that we know what our life will consist of from here on out.And as Dave so beautifully said and I concur that at least we know we wont remain a carnal beast!Thank God!

I would like to say this is something that I will continue to gain understanding on if God wills. And i am hoping others will add too.

Octoberose:Thank you as well for your post I enjoy your insight and personality and the fact that your very respectful!

Dave:This is a huge subject and I can no longer 'say' everything in a forum post.  I'll say just this to amen some of what precedes.  God is Sovereign.  He didn't choose His disciples BECAUSE of their pasts--not even in spite of their pasts.  He caused their pasts.  No matter how you, or octoberrose or Kat came to believe the Gospel, He caused it to happen.  I KNOW I didn't choose this, and nobody who has come to grips with the Sovereignty of God can claim otherwise for themselves.Dave quote

How awesome is that Dave!Dave we have had some good discussions and you are one of the first persons i meet here on bt.i just want to say your a beautiful person Man.As well are so many here on Bt!Thanks so much Dave for your pst as it was spot on.
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santgem

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Re: In OR OUT?
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2012, 05:45:13 AM »

Whether i belong to Elect or not it does not bother me at this moment in time.

What most important to me is that i know now by the fact that there is no hell that can barbecued human forever and ever and ever. What a great relief!

Just Imagine even John the Baptist And king David will not be in the first resurrection and thus  God Chooses the great sinner (Saul)Paul to belong to the Chosen or Elect one. Now i see the difference. God wants us to understand that we are not far from Him that He can do  whatever He wills. If the people He loves will not be in the first resurrection then me particularly will be in great joy knowing that even though  i will not be among the Elect i will be with those people whom God Loved in the judgment. :)
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Samson

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Re: In OR OUT?
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2012, 10:01:51 AM »

Hey Dave and Octoberose
Thanks for your replies!I had a friend ask me to pose this question to the forum and see what kind of responses I would get?So i hope others will reply as well.I find it interesting that here at Bt and others who know of Ray real well but are not on the forum.That some seem to have a belief a conviction that they are part of the elect.While others seem to have doubts?Ray seems to me to have a conviction that he is.Someone else I know sees it the same way .But again others not so much.Is it that Ray seems to have conviction as well as many others that because God has opened their eyes to these truths they see this as a confirmation or proof?Really would like the Bt -brass to comment on this...Kat, Deb,Gina,john Kentucky,Samson,Marques ,,and the rest of the awesome bunch!I have no Alternative motive why I ask this.Just would like to get some thoughts.Why is it your believe and see your elect OR why is it your unsure?Paul did say 2-tim-"'on that day I will put on my Crown of Righteousness".must of known something?Thanks to everyone for your time and thoughts if you choose to share.And again thanks Dave and Octoberose!

Hi The Truth,

My response is primarily going to be based on your original Post, I didn't get the impression that your original Post was referring to whether or not an individual is one of God's Elect or one chosen out of the " Many Called."

Dave from Tenn Post basically shows much insight, because there are many many Denominations of Christendom with varying interpretations that constitute their particular formula for getting "Saved," going to Heaven, etc and what exactly needs to be " done by Us ( Their Myth of belief in Free Moral agency) erroneously as part of their formula.

I go a little further than Dave from Tenn, meaning: even each particular Denomination doesn't agree or believe within itself on what method leads to Salvation or getting to Heaven. This may not be fully true in regards to the Extremely Legalistic Denominations, because a large degree of conformity and uniformity exists among those Members.

The Pattern that's noticed by these Denominations in general is believing that " being chosen" to going to Heaven or being part of " The Kingdom," is synonymous with being "Saved."

They believe that the Scriptures that refer to being debarred from entering God's Kingdom or being a part of God's Kingdom based on one's actions and acceptance of Christ in an individual's Short Lifespan(70-80 years) is synonymous with eventually being saved in general.

Scriptures such as the following are referring to God's chosen Elect Only, at least "Only" in this present Lifetime, ie- 1Cor.6:9-11( Those who practice such things will not inherit God's Kingdom); Ephesians. 5:3-5 (has no inheritance in God's Kingdom); Galatians. 5:19-21(practicing works of the flesh, no inheritance in God's Kingdom); Romans. 1:28-32( Those with a reprobate mind are deserving of Death), note- obviously those mentioned here in Romans are practicers of the things mentioned there.

With the above considered as to what they believe to constitute the exact formula for being saved or going to Heaven, that's a significant flaw with much CONFUSION(Babylon=Confusion) meaning that they will tell you many people receive some form of "Endless Punishment," but they can't give you a precise formula to avoid going there or a precise formula to be "Saved," as a result of " What you do or don't do," in this Lifetime. This all breeds Inconsistency, Double Standards, Hypocrisy, a lack of thought & Love and most importantly CONFUSION.

And what are We to do or how are We to react to Religious CONFUSION, get out of it or get out of Her, because Her sins have amassed all the way to the Heavenly Realm.

Rev 18:2  And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3  For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev 18:5  For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Βαβυλών
Babulōn
bab-oo-lone'
Of Hebrew origin [H894]; Babylon, the capital of Chaldaea (literally or figuratively as a type of tyranny): - Babylon.

The above derived from Babel equaling "Confusion." Read Below !

H894
בּבל
bâbel
baw-bel'
From H1101; confusion; Babel (that is, Babylon), including Babylonia and the Babylonian empire: - Babel, Babylon.

Yes, there's great confusion with all these Denominations, so how could they, as a group or individually explain to you or me where We are going or not going after death when they are confused themselves with no specific formula as to how to get there.

Just how I see it, Read Ray's How hard is it in getting Saved, Parts 1 & 2.

Kind Regards, Samson.
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Duane

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Re: In OR OUT?
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2012, 03:59:47 PM »

In NOT KNOWING a few crucial elements necessary for a definitive solution--I handle it this way:

My prayer:
"Lord,  I WANT to/STRIVE to be in the "first resurrection" so I can return to earth WITH you on a "white horse with white robes" at the next resurrection.  I KNOW that I am NOT worthy without FIRST going through the Lake Of Fire and being purified--

IF I have "any say" in the matter--I PREFER to experience my "Lake of Fire" NOW--while I'm on the earth rather than LATER.

SO--bring whatever hardship or circumstances that entails-- into my life NOW that I may attain the goal.  I KNOW that I am "asking for it" BUT I KNOW that YOU will give me strength and wisdom to handle each and every UNPLEASANT EXPERIENCE YOU deem NECESSARY to achieve my "purification process".

LASTLY--please help me CONSCIOUSLY and DELIBERATELY live my life as LOVINGLY, PURELY and HONESTLY as I can that I may emulate JESUS!"  In Jesus's name, AMEN

NOW--it's ALL in Your HANDS! 
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cjwood

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Re: In OR OUT?
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2012, 09:07:32 PM »

i like your post duane.  just wanted to say it.


claudia
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GaryK

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Re: In OR OUT?
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2012, 01:10:37 PM »

But my point is.......How do they reconcile the many Scriptures such as"No one will pluck them out of my hand" and "If you confess me before man I will confess you before my Father which is in heaven."

So today many will go and get Saved as they know it..only to end up unsaved if they dont go to church enough to meet the quota of the church and be deemed a back slider?Any thoughts?




The notion of free-will is amazingly strong and will over-ride any scriptural truth.    In a conversation once with a church leader I suggested to him that Paul did not have, in any way, power of himself to refuse his new charge and continue on his journey to persecute the church.   The idea was purely heretical and he told me as much.   Shunned I was.   

Point being, how do they ‘reconcile’?....doesn’t happen, or if it does it’s done by the notion of man has free-will and casts out the scriptural truth of ‘no one plucks’.   The power of man over God is stunning, but true, according to church teaching.   They don’t give it a thought, not deeply anyway………..and neither did I back when.   Most of us didn’t and that’s why we’re overjoyed to learn the truth.   

The quota you mention, that of church attendance, is also a wavy line to toe since not all church members consistently attend ALL services on a regular-habitual-constant-unwavering basis, so, I’m not sure how ‘back-sliding’ can be measured by church attendance attaining the great goal of saving of the soul.  Must be some-kinda-chalk board to keep up with that.

My thoughts.

gk
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Joel

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Re: In OR OUT?
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2012, 05:17:40 PM »

My most recent criticism is "You don't GO to Church, You are not Doing any works!"
I think most of the Church world believe that they have free will, and are free moral agents able to add and subtract theirselves at will.
Also with a view that God is in a terrible battle with Satan, and it is a hit and miss struggle that Christians have to fight in order for God to be able to win in the end. And that because God is Love, that he is some how also kind of weak.

I can see that a lot of denominations believe what they believe, and don't want to rock the boat by learning anything else outside of what they accept to be the Truth.

Joel
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Duane

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Re: In OR OUT?
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2012, 01:52:04 AM »

Joel--My recent criticism is:  If you don't go to church then you are not placing yourself to be in a position of "being used of God NOR are you being a blessing to others NOR are you "not forsaking the assembling together of saints"  SOOO how do you think that you can be in a right standing with God when 'YOU DO EVERYTHING YOUR OWN WAY"!

Trying to explain that I "assemble myself with believers" every night on the B-T web-site and computer DOESN'T CUT IT!  Nor when I explain that MY CHURCH is "world-wide and universal, not made with hands"  that doesn't cut it either.  Nor can I assume that all the scriptural knowledge I GIVE as well as RECEIVE over the computer "is doing anything for Christ"--or being a blessing to anyone who reads it.  If it isn't taught in the Sunday School classroom in a church---then it is for naught!  AIN'T NOTHIN' GOIN' TO CHANGE THEIR MINDS! 
Conclusion: We B-T'ers are a cult, blinded by the devil, going to hell and taking people with us!  We also follow Ray rather than God, we have to use obscure texts like the Concordant Literal Version, Youngs Literal Version, and everything BUT the King James Version because it endorses our wayward thinking.  Because we don't believe in hell we are authorizing people to live any old sinful way they want--and who cares?  They are ALL going to heaven anyway!  It "tickles our ears" to hear there is no hell and other heresies.  Finally, we probably aren't saved anyway! 
And, then to read Julie Ferwerd's book "Raising Hell"  or Jackson Baer's book "What the Hell"  we are just feeding ourselves
corruption and lies...  Guess that covers it--EXCEPT THAT THEY WILL PRAY FOR US!   

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Arion

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Re: In OR OUT?
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2012, 07:24:18 PM »

Any thoughts?

Mat 15:13-14  But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.  Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.


That would sum it up for me.  I simply don't talk to or argue with them.  If I bump into some folk on different Internet forums that I frequent that are speaking heresy I give them at least two scriptures with a link back to BT.  Most of them will go right on doing what they do but God can and does put the bug in their ear and they find their way back here.  I've also posted sections of specific teachings of Ray's on various subjects with a link back to the particular paper.  No use hashing it out with them or even arguing with them about it.  Nothing too much sadder than a blind man who is convinced that he sees clearly but it wasn't that many years ago that I too, was in their shoes.  God will bring them in time.
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